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Bezant
Guest
Is Satan ultimately responsible for the wrongs people commit, are they entirely due to human failure, or something else?
Ask any clarifications as we go along.
Ask any clarifications as we go along.
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A
aicirt
Guest
Satan is the source of evil. It is up to the individual to resist temptation. The third party or parties are those who know and see evil, observe a person committing evil, but do nothing to stop the evil. They are complicit in the act. The scandal at Penn comes to mind.
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karebear92
Guest
I voted Satan because he is the reason there is evil, and therefore if there were no Satan there would be no sin. But I think people ultimately have a responsibility to not sin, which is why the sins fall on the persons soul. I hope that makes sense.
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grasscutter
Guest
I voted other because, while Satan tempts us to sin, we have the responsibility (struggle!) to constantly seek God’s grace to resist. And when we fail, seek forgiveness. Although I think it’s important to remember God’s great gift to us - sending his Son for our redemption!
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MindOverMatter2
Guest
Do you mean to say that Satan is the originator of evil? I think source is a bit of a strong word as it would suggest that evil is an objective attribute of Satan’s nature; which it is not.
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MindOverMatter2
Guest
Anybody that commits sin is the reason for why there is evil in the world. Its a fallacy to think that the existence of evil is an attribute of Satan’s nature and thus would cease if he ceased. Thats not true.
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MindOverMatter2
Guest
Satan will not be judged for our sins. He is not responsible for anything we do. He is only responsible for the sins that he commits.
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karebear92
Guest
I am not saying that Lucifer was inherently evil (God cannot create evil; he created Lucifer, and therefore Lucifer cannot be inherently evil), as sinning is turning away from God, which he was the first to do. Nor am I saying that people should attribute their sins as the fault of Satan. However, If we break it down to why there is sin, unless you think Adam and Eve would have turned away from God alone, and whatever Satan did just sped up the process, then Satan is the ultimate beginning of evil. But if Satan did not turn away from God, would Adam and Eve have sinned in the first place? Would we (assuming we should exist) still be living in the Garden of Eden? I don’t believe the fall of Adam and Eve happened as it is told in the Bible, but in order to illustrate my point, I am sticking with the literal interpretation.
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dusza
Guest
Very strictly speaking you are correct, we are responsible for our decisions, but he will be judged on the amount of scandal he caused. As will we be judged.
“But he that shall scandalize one of these little ones that believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone should be hanged about his neck, and that he should be drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matt 18:6
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karebear92
Guest
Okay, I interpreted the question wrong. I didn’t read the OP’s comment; I only read the title of the question. Yes our sins are caused only because we choose to do them, but I believe humans, in general, sin because of the fall of Adam and Eve, which was prompted by Satan. So if I had to revote, I would pick the second or third option.
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MindOverMatter2
Guest
I do not see Adam and Eves fall as being contingent upon the behavior of Satan. Even if Satan had never existed, its still a possibility that Adam and Eve could have sinned. Adam and Eve have freewill, just like Satan.
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karebear92
Guest
I agree with them having free wills, but I don’t think they would have sinned had they not been prompted by Satan. Yes they were tempted, so it ultimately rests on their shoulders because they did it. But I don’t think they would have sinned had Satan not turned from God.
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dusza
Guest
As much as I hate to play the devil’s advocate, ULTIMATELY God is responsible because He created the possibility of sin by giving his creatures God-like freedom. Why did the tree of the knowledge of good and evil even exist in the Garden of Eden? God didn’t need to create anything, but He did with a full knowledge of all that it entailed.
Because He’s eternal and omniscient, God pre-destined many to hell for the sake of the elect. Of course, He put us in time, whereby we are free to choose where we want to go, but the fall and redemption, the damned and the elect was always a done deal as far as He’s concerned. He knew all of history before it happened, so ultimately He’s responsible.
Because He’s eternal and omniscient, God pre-destined many to hell for the sake of the elect. Of course, He put us in time, whereby we are free to choose where we want to go, but the fall and redemption, the damned and the elect was always a done deal as far as He’s concerned. He knew all of history before it happened, so ultimately He’s responsible.
OK, now I feel like I need to confess. :o
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MindOverMatter2
Guest
It didn’t. And neither was there a place called the garden of Eden. Eden symbolizes the spiritual relationship between humans and God before the fall. Why do you even take these stories as completely literal rather than symbolic? Have you seen a garden with an angel at the front gates wielding a flaming sword lately? No. You can search high and low for it and you will never find it because such a place never existed and neither did the tree of knowledge.
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karebear92
Guest
Why are you not on the threads that deal directly with this issue?!? I am always alone saying that it isn’t to be taken literally.
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MindOverMatter2
Guest
Perhaps it would have been less likely that Adam and eve in particular would have sinned, but not impossible, because Adam and eve did not receive the beatific vision, and therefore they are not perfect even with preternatural gifts. Freedom from sin does not mean they were impervious to sin.
lets agree to disagree. I don’t want a debate.
So you think the devil is the source of all temptation? I don’t think thats true. I think temptation is a natural fact of having freewill and a “self”. Outside of the beatific vision, having an individual self is a natural temptation to be selfish. God allows it because the good of having a self far outweighs the potential evil. Jesus even said there is nothing wrong with being “tempted”, if i remember correctly.
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karebear92
Guest
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MindOverMatter2
Guest
I prefer the philosophy forum. Theology…i just don’t think its my gift.
But you’re not alone in your views:thumbsup:
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dusza
Guest
Why didn’t you refute the question rather than attack my use of biblical symbolism? What’s that got to do with our discussion of responsibility for sin? Why can’t you simply cope with the use of symbols without any asterisks? The Word of God IS what it IS. The doctors of the Church didn’t seem to mind.
Since you didn’t explain it, tell me then what kind of “spiritual relationship” does the garden of Eden symbolize? Better yet, what does the tree of the knowledge of good and evil symbolize and why does that exist? For a fun exercise, try to explain your understanding of “the fall” without the use of biblical symbolism.
No, but St. Faustina did.
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tonyrey
Guest
Your point has been unjustly neglected! If God hadn’t created anyone there would be no evil. Why then did He? Because it would be evil not to create beings who cause evil simply because some cause evil when it is outweighed by the goodness and love of others.
Predestination suggests that our destiny is determined by God whereas in fact it is only permitted! Providence is a more accurate and less misleading term because it means our destiny is foreseen by God but chosen by us.
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