Evil

[JeffNiel]

is God evil? , gen: chapter 8:-21 God says “never again will I doom the earth because of man,since the desires of man’s heart are evil from the start” this being said- and knowing that we are created in God’s image - does this mean God is evil in some way?

we are an image of god- and we are evil at heart- that heart was created by God

 

[edward_george]

No, God is goodness itself. Man turned against God, and thus did evil–which is not a separate positive reality from good, but a lack of goodness, just as cold is not a separate positive reality from heat or darkness from light. Evil is a lack of a due good. God created man in his image and likeness, meaning that man shares in his goodness and freedom, but when man sinned, he abused his freedom, sinning against the image of God within.

-ACEGC

 

[sw85]

is God evil? , gen: chapter 8:-21 God says “never again will I doom the earth because of man,since the desires of man’s heart are evil from the start” this being said- and knowing that we are created in God’s image - does this mean God is evil in some way?

we are an image of god- and we are evil at heart- that heart was created by God

In Catholic theology, the ultimate standard of goodness is perfection of being. Contrariwise, evil is imperfection of being.

Now God alone is perfect, so if God was to create, He would have to create something imperfect. Otherwise he’d just be creating more of Himself, which is kind of a non sequitur.

 

[Hecares]

How can total perfection create imperfection? How can evil come from total goodness?

 

[promethius]

is God evil? , gen: chapter 8:-21 God says “never again will I doom the earth because of man,since the desires of man’s heart are evil from the start” this being said- and knowing that we are created in God’s image - does this mean God is evil in some way?

we are an image of god- and we are evil at heart- that heart was created by God

We have conscupience (evil desires) from our INDIVIDUAL start… not from the moment of universal creation, but from the moment of OUR creation.

At creation, mankind was the fullness of what God willed for us. It was AFTER that that we departed from God’s design and took on evil desire as part of our nature.

 

[edward_george]

How can total perfection create imperfection? How can evil come from total goodness?

Because if God is the fullness of perfection, he could not create another perfect being, since then there would be some perfection he would lack–namely the other perfect being. Thus, all things which derive being from God, the pinnacle of perfection, while sharing in that perfection to some degree, are to some degree less perfect. No effect can be greater than its cause.

-ACEGC

 

[Evan]

How can total perfection create imperfection? How can evil come from total goodness?

Aristotle answered this question: A good being can only create evil if a greater good results.

For example: The sin of Adam resulted in the incarnation of Christ.

 

[JeffNiel]

the fact stands - that all men are sinners- this is repeated in Romans and Corinthians -and even in Genesis we are told that man is evil- so any questions I ask will not be clearly answered for the fact that the men(women included) that give those answers are Evil according to God -

 

[promethius]

Because if God is the fullness of perfection, he could not create another perfect being, since then there would be some perfection he would lack–namely the other perfect being. Thus, all things which derive being from God, the pinnacle of perfection, while sharing in that perfection to some degree, are to some degree less perfect. No effect can be greater than its cause.

-ACEGC

If that logic were true, then watchmakers would not be able to build watches… only other humans.

Furthermore, if God is perfect and could only create another perfect being, then that being would necessarily be identical to God. But God is infinite… and how can there be two infinite beings?

The very basis of your argument makes no logical sense whatsoever when pursued to it’s natural ends…

 

[edward_george]

If that logic were true, then watchmakers would not be able to build watches… only other humans.

Furthermore, if God is perfect and could only create another perfect being, then that being would necessarily be identical to God. But God is infinite… and how can there be two infinite beings?

The very basis of your argument makes no logical sense whatsoever when pursued to it’s natural ends…

No, a watch is not greater than the watchmaker, since the watchmaker is necessary for the watch to exist. I don’t see how you get that from my argument; in fact, what you said about God being perfect and creating another perfect being is more or less a different version of what I said here. Please reread what I said.

-ACEGC

 

[promethius]

No, a watch is not greater than the watchmaker, since the watchmaker is necessary for the watch to exist. I don’t see how you get that from my argument; in fact, what you said about God being perfect and creating another perfect being is more or less a different version of what I said here. Please reread what I said.

-ACEGC

Baaaaaah! Boo on me. I read your post wrong… my pre-coffee brain read it as “If God is perfect He could not create an imperfect being”… not as you wrote it (that He could not create another perfect being… that makes sense!).

Phooey on me for my misreading! My apologies!

 

[edward_george]

Baaaaaah! Boo on me. I read your post wrong… my pre-coffee brain read it as “If God is perfect He could not create an imperfect being”… not as you wrote it (that He could not create another perfect being… that makes sense!).

Phooey on me for my misreading! My apologies!

Hehe what a difference a negation makes. I kind of figured that’s all it would have taken there to misread what I was saying. I look back on how I structured my statement and I can see what a difference one tiny word makes. I guess I need to compose in English when I write in English

-ACEGC

 

[sw85]

How can total perfection create imperfection? How can evil come from total goodness?

In Catholic theology, the ultimate standard of goodness is perfection of being. Contrariwise, evil is imperfection of being.

Now God alone is perfect, so if God was to create, He would have to create something imperfect. Otherwise he’d just be creating more of Himself, which is kind of a non sequitur.

 

[TimothyH]

Aristotle answered this question: A good being can only create evil if a greater good results.

For example: The sin of Adam resulted in the incarnation of Christ.

Some theologians believe that the incarnation was planned by God independent of man’s sin, that God would have done it anyway. Among them is Rupert of Deutz, a Benedictine Monk and theologian in the 12th century whome Pope Benedict XVI spoke about at one of his Wednesday general audiences.

***Like other medieval theologians, Rupert too wondered why the Word of God, the Son of God, was made man. Some, many, answered by explaining the Incarnation of the Word by the urgent need to atone for human sin. Rupert, on the other hand, with a Christocentric vision of salvation history, broadens the perspective, and in a work entitled The Glorification of the Trinity, sustains the position that the Incarnation, the central event of the whole of history was planned from eternity, even independently of human sin, so that the whole creation might praise God the Father and love him as one family gathered round **Christ, the Son of God. *

You can read the short talk about Rupert of Deutz by the Holy Father at vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2009/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20091209_en.html if you wish, but my point is that it is not universally accepted that Christ came only because of original sin or only to atone for original sin.

Some very strong theologians who have had great infulence on the Church believed that God would have become man anyway, simply to unite his family and to provide them with a means to priase him.

-Tim-

 

[TimothyH]

I’ll add to my previous post by citing the writing of Diadochus of Photice, a sixth century Bishop in Northeastern Greece regarding his view of the origin of evil.

*Evil does not exist by nature, nor is any man naturally evil, for God made nothing that was not good. When in the desire of his heart someone conceives and gives form to what in reality has no existence, then what he desires begins to exist. We should therefore turn our attention away from the inclination to evil and concentrate it on the remembrance of God; for good, which exists by nature, is more powerful than our inclination to evil. The one has existence while the other has not, except when we give it existence through our actions. (100 Chapters on Spiritual Knowledge and Discimination) *

I tend to agree with this, that evil is given life in man’s heart when he has an evil thought, and begins to exist in the world when man acts on that thought.

One has only to ask himself if evil would exist if man did not exist to see that this is the case. If man suddenly dissapeared from existence, so would evil. I’m not saying that man = evil, but that evil is proceedes forth from man’s thoughts and actions, and so if man no longer existed, evil would no longer exist as well.

-Tim-

 

[Evan]

I tend to agree with this, that evil is given life in man’s heart when he has an evil thought, and begins to exist in the world when man acts on that thought.

One has only to ask himself if evil would exist if man did not exist to see that this is the case. If man suddenly dissapeared from existence, so would evil. I’m not saying that man = evil, but that evil is proceedes forth from man’s thoughts and actions, and so if man no longer existed, evil would no longer exist as well.

-Tim-

Would not the fallen angel’s still exist? Does not their continued existence imply the continuation of evil.

Does our evil acts not effect the future. If man were to disappear, the effects of our evil would continue in the future. So there would still remain evil in the world. You cannot undo what you have done. You can only pray for forgiveness.

 

[TimothyH]

Would not the fallen angel’s still exist? Does not their continued existence imply the continuation of evil.

Does our evil acts not effect the future. If man were to disappear, the effects of our evil would continue in the future. So there would still remain evil in the world. You cannot undo what you have done. You can only pray for forgiveness.

If man were to disappear, how would the effects of our evil exist?

-Tim-

 

[Evan]

If man were to disappear, how would the effects of our evil exist?

-Tim-

Preliminary: I don’t know God’s plan for the world

If he had great hopes confused for the eventual evolution of the dodo into an intelligent creature he could breath a spirit into, our elimination of the specie line would delay or divert his plan for a perfect humanless world.

For good or evil, your acts impinge on your children and the children’s children (and their pets).

 

[SteveGC]

the fact stands - that all men are sinners- this is repeated in Romans and Corinthians -and even in Genesis we are told that man is evil- so any questions I ask will not be clearly answered for the fact that the men(women included) that give those answers are Evil according to God -

If this were true, why would you even pose a question to be answered at all? Questions precede answers, and since humans are the normative vehicle for both, your logic demands that there is no sense in even asking the question, for it would be just as faulty as the answer. It could be argued that the questioner is even more at fault than the answerer, since the answerer is prompted to act by the questioner.

Yet you feel compelled to ask anyway. Seems that it is, in fact, human nature to be compelled to ask questions, to seek knowledge. Could it be, then, that we are not evil by nature, and that our innate proclivity to ask “why” is based on inherent reason fueled by a designed nature of good? That seems more logical than dismissing our existence into the abyss of nonsense.