EVOLUTION: A Catholic Solution?

[buffalo]

Well, perhaps you could rephrase your statement. How do you equate the fact that people with the most education tend to accept evolution and those with the least education tend to discount it and how does pride enter into that equation?

Is it humble to cast aside that which I have studied and understand and defer to the claims of someone who hasn’t studied and doesn’t understand?

Peace

Tim

As I stated pride accompanies education.

Of course the people with most education accept it. If a professor teaches me something and I have no independent means to prove it I believe it or I don’t. The foundation of this is the empirical method which then molds the worldview to a prove God to me attitude. ( and no corresponding philosophical teaching) Since we cannot prove God empirically it gives rise to doubt. What is there waiting in the winds?

Consider, most Catholic kids are not Catholic when they complete college.

What is going on there? Is it an indoctrination of pride?

I do believe many highly educated people suffer from the sin of pride, but it is not exclusive to them.

 

[Orogeny]

As I stated pride accompanies education.

Pride seems to accompany those with little education as well. For example, I consider pride to be part of the problem for people with high school or less education telling me that Berthault’s experiments falsify a basic geologic premise. Or that the presence of fossils on Mt. Ararat prove that it was once covered by flood waters. Or that the Grand Canyon was formed in a very short period of time just like the ravines around Mt. St. Helens.

Of course the people with most education accept it. If a professor teaches me something and I have no independent means to prove it I believe it or I don’t. The foundation of this is the empirical method which then molds the worldview to a prove God to me attitude. ( and no corresponding philosophical teaching) Since we cannot prove God empirically it gives rise to doubt. What is there waiting in the winds?

That is one heck of a generalization. I never, not once had a professor in any of my (as ed would put it) atheistic geology classes question the existence of God. Never.

Consider, most Catholic kids are not Catholic when they complete college.

Do most Catholic kids that drop out of high school remain Catholic?

I do believe many highly educated people suffer from the sin of pride, but it is not exclusive to them.

The key is that it is not exclusive to them. And since it isn’t, it isn’t a useful way of explaining the educational discrepency between those that accept evolution and those that don’t.

Peace

Tim

 

[ricmat]

Do you find me prideful and what does that mean when it comes to accepting evolution?

Should I ignore that which I have studied and understand and defer to those who have done neither? Is that pride buffalo?

Peace

Tim

I will add that those most enamored with evolution on these threads seem to be the most prideful. Of course, written communication is imperfect so a lot gets lost in terms of vocal intonation, body language, etc.

What is pride, and how does it relate to evolution (or science in general)?

It is a basic premise of catholicism that man is not God, man will never be God. But sometimes we try to be God - the tree of good and evil. When we try to put ourselves equal with God, - that is pride. And secondarily, when we see ourselves as better than other of God’s children, that’s pride too.

Look at the pride on this forum – the evolutionists tend to emphasize their credentials, the famous folks the ate dinner with last week, how many universities they taught at, etc. They also tend to be very condescending and rude. This of course has nothing to do with presenting the arguments, but it has everything to do with pride.

God made the univese “knowable” to some degree. Thus we can measure and analyze and come up with (sometimes) useful predictions and invent useful devices or processes based on these predictions. Nothing wrong with that.

But God did not give us the ability to understand the true depths of his creation (at least not in the same way that He understands it). When we think we have it all figured out, we step outside our understanding of “created” versus “Creator.”

Read Job chapters 38-41. What message do you take away from those verses?

God gave us some limited understanding of the universe for the purpose of increasing our awe of his power and majesty. Not for the purpose of putting ourselves equal with Him or above any of his children. And certainly not with the intent of saying that we’ve found a way to explain everything without Him.

If I’d ever had the chance to listen to a lecture by Hans Kung (very credentialed, “current”, etc.) or a lecture by Mother Teresa (uncredentialed), believe me, I’d go for Mother Teresa. The beginning of wisdom is fear of God, not a PhD.

You say that the Church accepts evolution because there is much evidence to support it. Well, 600 years ago the Church accepted that the sun went around the earth, because most of the scientists of th day told them that there was much evidence to support it. You should be cautious what you claim as unchangable truth. But most of you don’t, most likely because of pride.

Lord Kelvin vs. the bicycle mechanics. Who won in the end?

 

[StAnastasia]

Pride accompanies education.

So does a full set of teeth.

 

[Arclight]

I will add that those most enamored with evolution on these threads seem to be the most prideful. Of course, written communication is imperfect so a lot gets lost in terms of vocal intonation, body language, etc.

What is pride, and how does it relate to evolution (or science in general)?

It is a basic premise of catholicism that man is not God, man will never be God. But sometimes we try to be God - the tree of good and evil. When we try to put ourselves equal with God, - that is pride. And secondarily, when we see ourselves as better than other of God’s children, that’s pride too.

Look at the pride on this forum --…

Yes, look at the arrogance of the ignorant who take pride in their ignorance.

 

[grannymh]

Question?

How do you describe humility?

Blessings,
granny

All human life comes from God.

 

[Arclight]

Question?

How do you describe humility?

Blessings,
granny

All human life comes from God.

Agree with people too lazy to learn, you’re suitably humble.

 

[grannymh]

Agree with people too lazy to learn, you’re suitably humble.

Agree with people too lazy to learn is being humble? Are you saying that people too lazy to learn are considered humble?

If pride is being looked down upon, which direction should we look for humility?

Blessings,
granny

All humanity is God’s pride and joy.

 

[StAnastasia]

As I look back, I can see that in one way, this man was like the Catholic Church who wants to protect the faith of the flock. And at the same time, he was like the Catholic Church who knows that we have minds and emotions to be used in learning, understanding, and enjoying the universe in all its wonder, beauty and mystery. Humankind is the most important part of the wonder, beauty and mystery. Blessings,granny

Grannymh, every morning we pray at the assembly at my childrens’ Catholic school. You might have enjoyed this morning’s prayer, which balanced reverence for God with a remembrance of the life of Charles Darwin:

“As we look about our beautiful world this morning – the flowers on the hillside, the vegetables we grow in our peace garden, the insects pollinating the plants, the birds and squirrels spreading seeds – let us thank God for the life and work and thought of naturalist Charles Darwin. Let us celebrate how much we have learned about divine creativity working through the instrument of evolution, to bring about such grace and beauty and diversity of life. Let us always be thankful for the gift of our minds, that permits us to explore the world, and for the gift of our hearts, that allows us to render praise and thanksgiving to God.”

StAnastasia

 

[reggieM]

"As we look about our beautiful world this morning – the flowers on the hillside, the vegetables we grow in our peace garden, the insects pollinating the plants, the birds and squirrels spreading seeds –

…all the product of unintelligent, natural processes and random mutations.

let us thank God for the life and work and thought of naturalist Charles Darwin.

Let us worship him or at least canonize him.

Let us celebrate how much we have learned about divine creativity working through the instrument of evolution,

… and the fact that God had nothing to do with the development of nature, except perhaps, to “breathe” some life into some inanimate material as Mr. Darwin has so wisely taught us.

… to bring about such grace and beauty and diversity of life.

… all of which is an illusion since it is merely the result of accidental forces.

Let us always be thankful for the gift of our minds,

…

That we can use to study and promulgate the gospel of Darwin.

that permits us to explore the world, and for the gift of our hearts, that allows us to render praise and thanksgiving to God."

…

… as evolutionary processes dictate that we do.

 

[Orogeny]

I will add that those most enamored with evolution on these threads seem to be the most prideful.

Of course they do. You don’t accept evolution, at least not all of it, so those that disagree with you are prideful. I understand.

What is pride, and how does it relate to evolution (or science in general)?

Does it not relate to creationism? How about those that reject science?

Look at the pride on this forum – the evolutionists tend to emphasize their credentials, the famous folks the ate dinner with last week, how many universities they taught at, etc. They also tend to be very condescending and rude. This of course has nothing to do with presenting the arguments, but it has everything to do with pride.

I never questioned your faith, yet numerous anti-scientists on this forum have done exactly that to me. Let’s not pretend only those on the side of science have problems with pride.

God made the univese “knowable” to some degree. Thus we can measure and analyze and come up with (sometimes) useful predictions and invent useful devices or processes based on these predictions. Nothing wrong with that.

There is for some on this forum.

If I’d ever had the chance to listen to a lecture by Hans Kung (very credentialed, “current”, etc.) or a lecture by Mother Teresa (uncredentialed), believe me, I’d go for Mother Teresa. The beginning of wisdom is fear of God, not a PhD.

If the talk was about quantum mechanics, would you rather Mother Teresa or Stephen Hawking?

You say that the Church accepts evolution because there is much evidence to support it. Well, 600 years ago the Church accepted that the sun went around the earth, because most of the scientists of th day told them that there was much evidence to support it. You should be cautious what you claim as unchangable truth. But most of you don’t, most likely because of pride.

Ah, I see. Of course, Cassini will probably be piping in letting you know that you are a heretic because of course the Church has infallibly declared that the sun and the rest of the universe orbit the earth. But, being a supporter of evolution, there I go being prideful again!

Peace

Tim

 

[edwest2]

In a book by Ray Kurzweil, The Singularity Is Near, he proposes a future where man produces a synthetic version of himself. The suggestion is that this is where, an unexplicably intelligent, evolution is taking us. Man completely renounces himself and becomes a machine. No body or soul.

Peace,
Ed

 

[The_Barbarian]

(the diversity of living things)

…all the product of unintelligent, natural processes and random mutations.

You forgot natural selection. God, as usual, thought of everything, even if you didn’t. I think His way is better than yours for that and other reasons.

let us thank God for the life and work and thought of naturalist Charles Darwin.

Let us worship him or at least canonize him.

Purposely misrepresenting scientists comes naturally to Reggie, it seems.

… and the fact that God had nothing to do with the development of nature, except perhaps, to “breathe” some life into some inanimate material as Mr. Darwin has so wisely taught us.

Sounds like a pretty big thing, the creation of life. Maybe not to creationists. Hard to say. I’m in awe of it. But then, I don’t feel qualified to criticize His methods.

… all of which is an illusion since it is merely the result of accidental forces.

Darwin’s great discovery was that it wasn’t by chance.

That we can use to study and promulgate the gospel of Darwin.

Astonishing it is, that some creationists have no scruples about mocking the Gospels to attack science.

 

[Arclight]

In a book by Ray Kurzweil, The Singularity Is Near, he proposes a future where man produces a synthetic version of himself. The suggestion is that this is where, an unexplicably intelligent, evolution is taking us. Man completely renounces himself and becomes a machine. No body or soul.

Peace,
Ed

The Skynet Funding Bill is passed. The system goes on-line August 4th, 1997. Human decisions are removed from strategic defense. Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th

 

[The_Barbarian]

Of course the people with most education accept it. If a professor teaches me something and I have no independent means to prove it I believe it or I don’t.

That’s the beauty of it. If you understand basic science, you do have a means to know what is true and what is not in biology.

The foundation of this is the empirical method which then molds the worldview to a prove God to me attitude.

If you actually believe that, you live in a fantasy world, with no connection to the real one. I learned evolution from a professor who was a devout Christian and on the vestry of the local Episcopal church.

Since we cannot prove God empirically it gives rise to doubt.

Maybe for you. I have no need to gather evidence for God. Do you understand why?

Mark 10:15 15 Amen I say to you, whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, shall not enter into it.

You don’t need to prove Him; you merely need to accept Him in your heart and say to Him, “Abba.” He’ll be there for you.

Romans 8:15 For you have not received the spirit of bondage again in fear; but you have received the spirit of adoption of sons, whereby we cry: Abba (Papa)

 

[edwest2]

The Skynet Funding Bill is passed. The system goes on-line August 4th, 1997. Human decisions are removed from strategic defense. Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th

The technology is being developed now:

singinst.org/blog/2008/08/29/intel-cto-and-ray-kurzweil-among-visionaries-headlining-singularity-summit-2008-opportunity-risk-leadership/

Of course, the Pentagon will not be calling you or me to get our (name removed by moderator)ut.

Peace,
Ed

 

[Namesake]

My faith depends on the Truth. The philosophy of atheistic-materialism is not true and is an enemy of the Faith.

Therefore, certainly in Catholic schools at least, the promotion of atheistic-materialism should be banned.

I sure agree with that. The theory of evolution doesn’t include atheism so it’s not a problem.

 

[hecd2]

Look at the pride on this forum – the evolutionists tend to emphasize their credentials, the famous folks the ate dinner with last week, how many universities they taught at, etc. They also tend to be very condescending and rude. This of course has nothing to do with presenting the arguments, but it has everything to do with pride.

If I take the immense trouble and time to learn about something in depth, and then use that knowledge to point out that someone is talking complete codswallop about the subject, then it is far easier and more convenient for that person to defend their ideas by accusing me of pride than by learning about the subject himself in order to present a reasoned counter-argument.

It is sad to see Catholics denigrating education. I will always be deeply grateful for my Catholic education. The Church works to educate people the world over. It is strange to see it attacked in this way.

If pride means rejecting the obtuse ideas of the ignorant, the lazy and the mendacious, then I am proud to be prideful.

Alec
evolutionpages.com

 

[buffalo]

That’s the beauty of it. If you understand basic science, you do have a means to know what is true and what is not in biology.

If you actually believe that, you live in a fantasy world, with no connection to the real one. I learned evolution from a professor who was a devout Christian and on the vestry of the local Episcopal church.

Maybe for you. I have no need to gather evidence for God. Do you understand why?

Mark 10:15 15 Amen I say to you, whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, shall not enter into it.

You don’t need to prove Him; you merely need to accept Him in your heart and say to Him, “Abba.” He’ll be there for you.

Romans 8:15 For you have not received the spirit of bondage again in fear; but you have received the spirit of adoption of sons, whereby we cry: Abba (Papa)

What I stated is the classic route to atheism.

Good for you. Many learned evolution from atheists too.

 

[buffalo]

If I take the immense trouble and time to learn about something in depth, and then use that knowledge to point out that someone is talking complete codswallop about the subject, then it is far easier and more convenient for that person to defend their ideas by accusing me of pride than by learning about the subject himself in order to present a reasoned counter-argument.

It is sad to see Catholics denigrating education. I will always be deeply grateful for my Catholic education. The Church works to educate people the world over. It is strange to see it attacked in this way.

If pride means rejecting the obtuse ideas of the ignorant, the lazy and the mendacious, then I am proud to be prideful.

Alec
evolutionpages.com

You got it all wrong. Education is not bad or wrong.

The pride of a person who is educated was the basis for my statement. And I made the point all of us are prideful in some way.

Why aren’t you Catholic?