EVOLUTION: A Catholic Solution?

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Wildleafblower - thanks for the article, but I find that point (the basis of much of the argument) to be meaningless. It would suggest that human beings are merely 2% different than chimpanzees.
It suggests that our DNA is 2% different, that is all. The external differences caused by the DNA may not be 2%. I strongly suspect that chimps are more than 2% faster than us as climbing trees. Likewise we are more than 2% more intelligent than chimps.
The reality is, however, human beings are different than any animal by an infinite degree.
In material terms the difference is finite, and since DNA only applies to the material then a finite difference is to be expected.
Aside from that, the 98% similarity figure is misleading and incorrect in the view of some scientists.
Agreed. There are different ways to compare DNA, with the figures being in the range 95% to 98%.
Additionally, human DNA is 92% similar to mice as well as 92% similar to zebrafish. It is 65% similar to a fruit fly and 75% similar to a worm.
By the logic, we are 92% mouse, or 75% worm.
Quite reasonable. Mice are mammals so we share a lot of common mammalian characteristice: hair, lactation, four limbs, jaws, teeth, spines, brains, eyes etc. With such a degree of similarity then a degree of similarity in our respective DNAs is also to be expected.

You will have to be more specific about what species of “worm” you are talking about. We are bilateralian deuterostomes. Most worms are bilateralian, some are not. Some worms are deuterostomes while others are protostomes. The degree of similarity in DNA is affected by the degree of similarity in the relationship we have with that particular worm. We share with all worms the inner workings of our eukaryote cells: neucleus, mitochondria etc. Hence some degree of similarity, but less than the similarity with mice, is to be expected and is duly found.

rossum
 
ReggieM, Alec and Eric Chaisson talk the same talk and so do I, a Roman Catholic woman with a ton of intuition and intelligence.🙂

EVOLUTION by Eric J. Chaisson, Wright Center for Science Education (1) summed it up best for me, especially the terminology used by adults today. Here’s an excerpt from PATHS TOWORD HUMANITY:

Take chimps, for example. Studies of selected genes from our closest relative have consistently found that ~98% of human DNA is identical to that of chimpanzees (and >99.9% identical to the person next to you). That means there are fewer genetic differences between chimps and humans than between horses and zebras or between dolphins and porpoises. Only a small part of the human genome is responsible for the traits that make us human—including our ability to walk, talk, write, build complex things, and enact moral imperatives. That said, chimps look and act like us only to an extent; their anatomy and behavior do distinctly differ from ours. (Admittedly, a 2% difference among an estimated billion base pairs does still allow for millions of variations among strings of nucleotides that govern protein manufacture.) So, what comprises those 2% biochemical differences and can we trace them back to their genetic origins—to look back in time to infer evolutionary insight? If recent studies are correct, it’s not only the number of gene differences that’s telling, but also the relative activity (or “expression” by which they produce proteins) of certain genes. Evidently, gene expression in human brains differs greatly from that in chimps, implying faster rates of neural evolution for our ancestors while on the road to humanity.(2)
  1. tufts.edu/as/wright_center/cosmic_evolution/docs/splash.html
    http://www.tufts.edu/as/wright_center/cosmic_evolution/docs/splash.html
  2. http://www.tufts.edu/as/wright_center/cosmic_evolution/docs/fr_1/fr_1_bio.html
    tufts.edu/as/wright_center/cosmic_evolution/docs/fr_1/fr_1_bio.html
We are the 99% chimpanzee? Scratch that!
 
The only explanation that makes any sense is that these duplications occurred in an ancestor species and were then passed to the chimp and human lines that sprang from that ancestor species.
Not to imply that I necessarily challenge any of what you said, but when I see ‘the only explanation’, my antennae go up. (‘Most likely explanation’ is another matter altogether, but that’s not what you said.)

You may have an answer for this – I haven’t read the book – but I immediately thought that the same damage could occur in both species because they were both subject to the same forces that caused the damage. Unless you KNOW what all those forces were, how can you say this isn’t a logically possible – however unlikely – explanation?
 
I don’t think anyone has addressed my reasoning in #64. Is that simple oversight or does it mean that everyone agrees? If everyone agrees, then I think we have rapprochement between evolutionist dogma and Church teaching. And isn’t that what the original poster was looking for?
 
In material terms the difference is finite, and since DNA only applies to the material then a finite difference is to be expected.
Material terms alone are not sufficient to understand the difference between humans and animals – but even just with material aspects, the potential for humans in terms of abstract, conscious thought (matth, literature, communications, physics, aeronautics, art, language) are “incomprehensively more vast” (instead of the word “infinitely”) than the potential found in animal life.

[The DNA of mice is 92% the same as human].
Quite reasonable. Mice are mammals so we share a lot of common mammalian characteristice: hair, lactation, four limbs, jaws, teeth, spines, brains, eyes etc.
As above, the difference between humans and animals is “virtually infinite” even excluding the spiritual nature of man.
 
As above, the difference between humans and animals is “virtually infinite” even excluding the spiritual nature of man.
The material difference in our respective DNAs is measurable and is not “virtually infinite”. I was talking about the reasonableness of the 92% similarity of human and mouse DNA, not of the derived characteristics of that DNA.

rossum
 
Not to imply that I necessarily challenge any of what you said, but when I see ‘the only explanation’, my antennae go up. (‘Most likely explanation’ is another matter altogether, but that’s not what you said.)

You may have an answer for this – I haven’t read the book – but I immediately thought that the same damage could occur in both species because they were both subject to the same forces that caused the damage. Unless you KNOW what all those forces were, how can you say this isn’t a logically possible – however unlikely – explanation?
Let me see if I can illustrate the scenario more clearly.

First, some background: Humans have 23 chromosomes whereas chimps have 24 – the reason for this is that after humans split off from chimps, two of the human chromosomes merged into one. We know this because human chromosome 2 has two “centers”, one of which isn’t active, and has in its middle the telltale signs of an end-to-end fusion. So, human chromosome 2 corresponds to two chimp chromosomes, and the rest of the human chromosomes pair up on a 1-to-1 basis with the rest of the chimp chromosomes.

Now, I don’t have the book handy, but my recollection is that the scenario goes something like this: There is a particular gene which has about 18 copies of itself located throughout the human genome. One of them is a “tandem duplicate” that lies right next to the original. The rest are “retro duplicates” that are located on different chromosomes – these particular duplicates are a kind form from the original and can then float during cell division to anywhere in the human genome. A particular one of these “retro duplicates” is incomplete – something went wrong during either the copying or insertion process.

We know that the duplicates are indeed duplicates and are not more originals because when a gene duplicates there is a “signature” that gets attached to the duplicate gene in the process. So what we have in the human genome is a single original gene that, over time, generated 18 copies of itself – 1 “tandem” and 17 “retro”, and of the 17 “retro” copies, the one that landed on, say, chromosome 12 got broken.

Now, “tandem duplicates” usually end up alongside their originals, so the fact that both the chimp and human genomes each contain the original with a “tandem duplicate” beside it is really nothing all that special. “Retro duplicates”, however, once they are made can land on any chromosome in any place on that chromosome. Let’s say that each chromosome has 1000 places where a “retro duplicate” could land (and that’s probably a ridiculously conservative estimate), the odds – and I had to use teacher-allowed “cheat sheets” in my college statistics class, so don’t be surprised if I get this wrong – of a “retro duplicate’s” landing in a specific point on a specific chromosome is 1/24000. Therefore, the odds of a “retro” copy landing in the same place on the same chromosome in two totally unrelated genomes is (1/24000)^2 = 1/576000000. The odds of this happening 18 times in two unrelated genomes already breaks my home calculator, but even if we accept this extremely remote possibility as having happened by chance, we still have the broken “retro” copy, which is broken in the same way in both genomes, to bump our odds even further into the realm of impossibility.

The alternative is much cleaner: All these duplicates occurred in an ancestor species common to human and chimps, and after all these copies were created, then the ancestor species split into the human and chimp lineages – each lineage carrying its own “inheritance” of copies.

–Mike
 
Let me see if I can illustrate the scenario more clearly. . . .
All of that makes sense. There are some crucial assumptions there, but they seem reasonable.

As I said, I wasn’t necessarily disagreeing. I don’t see any need to.
 
This is a question for the ages. I see the story of Genesis archeologically as written by the JEDP writers during the Babylonian diaspora (@450BCE) That means it was “reconstructed” history of what they saw as perfection. Why can’t it be inspired to mean that Eden or their idea of heaven? Not a place where we are coming from but rather a place we a going to? In my opinion the writers saw Adam and Eve as the perfection of humanity to aspire? I agree Creation was made perfect with the injection of the soul. They realized sin was very real. They knew about freewill and has experienced firsthand their own brokenness and saw they had been cast out of the the kingdom promised by God.
The JEDP writers were not schooled anthropologists. They were a “stiff necked” people who had failed in fulfilling the Mosaic covenant law. They saw their failed state. It is folly to think they knew any kind of evolution. How can we in a modern age have the hubris to think we can inject our scientific knowledge to a Torah/Pentateuch, written to enslaved peoples to explain their failure of keeping the covenant with God?. We all know the "Mrs. Cain question. or “what happened to the dinosaurs?” These ancient stories in my opinion, were never written to be factual but rather metaphorical and allegorical.
 
This is a question for the ages. I see the story of Genesis archeologically as written by the JEDP writers during the Babylonian diaspora (@450BCE) That means it was “reconstructed” history of what they saw as perfection. Why can’t it be inspired to mean that Eden or their idea of heaven? Not a place where we are coming from but rather a place we a going to? In my opinion the writers saw Adam and Eve as the perfection of humanity to aspire? I agree Creation was made perfect with the injection of the soul. They realized sin was very real. They knew about freewill and has experienced firsthand their own brokenness and saw they had been cast out of the the kingdom promised by God.
The JEDP writers were not schooled anthropologists. They were a “stiff necked” people who had failed in fulfilling the Mosaic covenant law. They saw their failed state. It is folly to think they knew any kind of evolution. How can we in a modern age have the hubris to think we can inject our scientific knowledge to a Torah/Pentateuch, written to enslaved peoples to explain their failure of keeping the covenant with God?. We all know the "Mrs. Cain question. or “what happened to the dinosaurs?” These ancient stories in my opinion, were never written to be factual but rather metaphorical and allegorical.
With all due respect, opinion does not matter. The Catholic Church teaches that Adam and Eve were two individuals and that all human beings came from natural generation through Adam.

“modern age” What does that mean? For human beings to think that today, because we have new, new knowledge, some can discredit Church teaching? It is not metaphorical or symbolic. There was an actual event; the cause of Original Sin.

The soul is not a subject for scientific study and to mix it into a scientific discussion is not logical.

Peace,
Ed
 
This is a question for the ages. I see the story of Genesis archeologically as written by the JEDP writers during the Babylonian diaspora (@450BCE) That means it was “reconstructed” history of what they saw as perfection. Why can’t it be inspired to mean that Eden or their idea of heaven? Not a place where we are coming from but rather a place we a going to? In my opinion the writers saw Adam and Eve as the perfection of humanity to aspire? I agree Creation was made perfect with the injection of the soul. They realized sin was very real. They knew about freewill and has experienced firsthand their own brokenness and saw they had been cast out of the the kingdom promised by God.
The JEDP writers were not schooled anthropologists. They were a “stiff necked” people who had failed in fulfilling the Mosaic covenant law. They saw their failed state. It is folly to think they knew any kind of evolution. How can we in a modern age have the hubris to think we can inject our scientific knowledge to a Torah/Pentateuch, written to enslaved peoples to explain their failure of keeping the covenant with God?. We all know the "Mrs. Cain question. or “what happened to the dinosaurs?” These ancient stories in my opinion, were never written to be factual but rather metaphorical and allegorical.
Here is a good read -

The Toledoths of Genesis

and

THE CATHOLIC UNDERSTANDING OF THE BIBLE
 
What are the assumptions?
The big one is that the retro duplicates can end up anywhere on any chromosome. If some so-far-undiscovered mechanism is at work, that could alter the probabilities. But I don’t argue the point.
 
I was talking about the reasonableness of the 92% similarity of human and mouse DNA, not of the derived characteristics of that DNA.
The intial post I was responding to was using the “98% similarity” issue as a means of proving the similarity of the “derived characteristics”. You narrowed the discussion to an analysis of DNA alone.
 
Evolution of course is athiestic as it assumes naturalistic processes from the onset…
No. Even Darwin, in his book, attributed the origin of life to God. The Catholic Church would not be open to evolution, if it were atheistic.
 
What I think is bizarrely wrong is coming to a Catholic forum and declaring Adam and Eve myths.
You are, of course, entitled to your opinion, but that does not change the fact that multiple lines of molecular evidence preclude the possibility that the human population has ever been as small as two individuals, and therefore, since there has never been a literal Adam and Eve, then the story of Adam and Eve while possibly containing some figurative truths, is a myth and cannot be literally true.
Science is not a dictatorship. There is a proper relationship between faith and science.
The proper relationship between faith and science, is that science should take precedence in matters relating to the natural processes in the universe, such as this one regarding the biological ancestry of the human race, and that religion should stay out of theoretical and factual scientific considerations. Faith gets into trouble when it attempts to meddle in scientific matters, as it lacks the tools and the competence to distinguish between fiction and reality in the natural world.

Alec
evolutionpages.com
 
Faith gets into trouble when it attempts to meddle in scientific matters, as it lacks the tools and the competence to distinguish between fiction and reality in the natural world.
And the other side of that coin is that because the soul is immaterial, science knows nothing about it and, therefore, can tell us nothing about ‘true men’.

(Back to posts #124 and #64.)
 
You’re too embarrassed to admit that you’re not a molecular biologist.
I am not at all embarrassed to declare that I am not a molecular biologist, (although I work in a multi-disciplinary field that requires me to know a substantial amount of molecular biology).

However, I don’t need to be a molecular biologist to point out that that the argument from authority that *you *introduced by claiming that there are scientists who deny the common ancestry of humans and chimpanzees is flawed, because you are unable to produce any such competent authorities.

In other words, your implication that there is some sort of disagreement amongst competent scientists about the common descent of humans and chimps is misleading. There is no such disagreement, controversy or debate. The common ancestry of chimps and humans is a settled matter in science.
hecd2 said:
There is always the odd crank and fruitcake
As some innovative scientists were considered as they went against the status quo.

Would you like to give us some recent examples of “innovative scientists” now accepted who were once regarded as cranks or fruitcakes? In the whole of the 20th century, I am aware of Warren and Marshall, and possibly Wegener. The popular idea that fringe scientists are frequently vindicated by successfully overturning previously held ideas is a myth. The history of science is more accurately portrayed as the development and modification of ideas by insiders. Other than the ones I have mentioned, can you think of any other cases of people on the fringe being vindicated?

Alec
evolutionpages.com
 
The popular idea that fringe scientists are frequently vindicated by successfully overturning previously held ideas is a myth. . . . Other than the ones I have mentioned, can you think of any other cases of people on the fringe being vindicated?
How many times does something have to happen before you acknowledge that it can happen?

Just curious.😃
 
Ah, let me guess. Duh! Alec is talking about Adam and Eve being a myth again.LOL! Teilhard de Chardin a scientist thought they were homo sapiens. Looks like we got two scientists disagreeing. Bless their little souls.😃
 
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