Evolution and Creationism

[Hume]

You’re assuming the speed of light has always been constant

Yes, I have zero reason to believe otherwise.

 

[Hume]

I already established above that our dating methods for rocks are full of errors, and I provided an alternative formation method of the fossil record.

The dating of rocks is essentially based on nuclear decay - which can vary due to outside forces, but those forces are not to be found on our planet Earth.

Fiddling with decay rates requires pressure that our planet could not survive.

As the decay rate of some isotopes of Uranium are measured in the billions of years, it provides a good basis from which to date on these time scales.

 

[Gigantals]

If you read the current Flood model, you would see the Earth could survive such a change. Mt St Helens proves those forces do exist even to this day

Besides, there is no way something could remain constant for billions of years. That is scientifically impossible.

 

[Hume]

If you read the current Flood model, you would see the Earth could survive such a change

1. There isn’t enough water on the earth to flood the whole earth unless all land masses collapsed to level with the ocean floor. No evidence this has occurred.
2. If there was, then you wouldn’t have the eradication of older, datable rocks. They’d just be tainted with redistributed material which would form it’s own, identifiably separate strata. Most of the rock below would be unaffected

It’s a model proposed by people who really want a 6000 year old earth to be true and don’t know much about science.

 

[Noose001]

Like i said, reality is a creation of our conscious mind.

You believe light has been travelling at an earth dependent speed for billions of years even before the earth was fully formed?! This is fantastic news.

I say earth dependent because earth is reference point for space-time and just about everything. For example; you can’t say North in space, it has to be North with reference to an observer on earth. Likewise, time and all rates are referenced to an observer on earth. A year is originally the time period a fully formed earth revolves around the sun once, and so are the days, hours, seconds earth dependent.

Why is earth so important as a reference point? Because it is where the observer dwells and an observer is nothing more than consciousness.

If life was on Jupiter which takes 4333 days (11.86 years) to revolve around the sun, the speed of light would be 25277610 m/s and not 299 792 458 m / s and the age of the universe would be 1.16 Billion years and Jupiter only 380 million years old.

If we had scientists in both Jupiter and Earth, we will have to standardize this time, but how when the rates are not a constant but observer dependent?

this shows that time is not independent from consciousness, the experience of passage of time is the only reality and not some clock.

 

[Gigantals]

1. There was major tectonic uplift during the Flood, as a result the tectonic activity caused by the opening of the Fountains of the deep; which were the subterranean oceans.
2. I put a link to a video above that explains the formation of the mega sequences during the Flood.

When the atheists came up with the idea of evolution, they needed to find a way to make the Earth seem really old. They threw away all the answers and methods that seemed too young to support evolution. And so the Earth grew older: 6650; 10,000; 50,000; 10 million; 4.6 billion years. These dates had an agenda behind them. You can’t claim evolution is an unbiased ‘science’

Science can be observed and experimented upon. We can see evidence of catastrophism in modern day natural disasters. You have yet to prove that the assumptions made during radiometric dating aren’t assumptions. You have yet to prove ‘goo-to-you’ mutations. You have yet to prove what came first: the enzyme to fold the protein, or the protein to be folded into the enzyme. This doesn’t sound like science to me. And the dictionary agrees with me.

Science: the intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behaviour of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment.

Evolution: the process by which different kinds of living organism are believed to have developed from earlier forms during the history of the earth.

Because evolution is a system of belief. It is the atheist’s Godless answer to our origin. We know that God exists, which is why the very agenda behind evolution’s origin is ridiculous.

 

[Hume]

Like i said, reality is a creation of our conscious mind.

You believe light has been travelling at an earth dependent speed for billions of years even before the earth was fully formed?! This is fantastic news.

The speed of light isn’t earth-dependent. It’s fixed relative to the source.

But yeah. Nearly all you see at night are millions or billions of light years away.

The further objects you can’t see without help, but it’s incredible to know that the light you see from those furthest objects was emitted before the Earth we stand on even began to form 4.5 billion years ago or so.

If life was on Jupiter which takes 4333 days (11.86 years) to revolve around the sun, the speed of light would be 25277610 m/s and not 299 792 458 m / s and the age of the universe would be 1.16 Billion years and Jupiter only 380 million years old.

The amount of time doesn’t change, just the unit of measurement, there. Similarly, the folks who presently insist the world is only 6000 years old would then insist it’s merely 509 years old.

But you’re wrong about the speed of light. It wouldn’t change unless a Jupter meter is different from an Earth meter.

The time is absolute. The unit of measurement is relative.

If we had scientists in both Jupiter and Earth, we will have to standardize this time, but how when the rates are not a constant but observer dependent?

You already gave the conversion factor. 11.86.

this shows that time is not independent from consciousness, the experience of passage of time is the only reality and not some clock.

No, it shows that units of measurement change but what’s being measured does not.

A string 1 mile long is the same length as a string 1.6 kilometers long.

 

[rossum]

You’re assuming the speed of light has always been constant

No, we are not “assuming”. We have measurements of the speed of light from a long time ago.

The speed of light is measured to have been constant for the last 10 billion years. It was probably constant for the 2 billion years before that, but the measurements are not quite accurate enough back that far to eliminate the possibility of a small change in c, something of the order of 4% IIRC. Certainly not enough to allow for the night sky we see in a 6,000 year old universe.

How do we know? Because we have measured the Fine Structure Constant, and the value of c is included in the FSC. No change in the FSC means no change in c, the speed of light.

Scientists very rarely “assume”, wherever possible they measure. This is a case where they have measured. Whatever source told you that scientists were assuming obviously misinformed you.

 

[Noose001]

We are making good progress. I need your opinion on the following:

1.Is a day related in any way to earth movements against the sun as observed?
2.Is a year related in any way to earth movements against the sun as observed?
3.Is a second related in any way to a day?
4.Can the speed of light be presented in the form of distance coverage per second

 

[Hume]

1. There was major tectonic uplift during the Flood, as a result the tectonic activity caused by the opening of the Fountains of the deep; which were the subterranean oceans.

Ok, so where did all this water go?

You’d need a bit more than a billion cubic miles of water to cover the entire earth to the height of Mt. Everest. (everything covered).

We only have 330 million cubic miles of water on the planet.

This means after the flood, two thirds of the water on the earth vanished! Where to?

More questions you have to answer…

When the atheists came up with the idea of evolution,

At the time, Darwin was a theist.

they needed to find a way to make the Earth seem really old.

They found it in radioactive decay. It was found because the Earth is “really old”, else it wouldn’t be there to be found.

These dates had an agenda behind them. You can’t claim evolution is an unbiased ‘science’

Yeah, science has a bias toward objective, observable facts. So when better data comes along, out with the old, in with the new.

You have yet to prove that the assumptions made during radiometric dating aren’t assumptions.

We have proven it. The decay rate for this batch of isotope is the same for a separate batch containing the same isotope. We prove it all day long, everyday.

You have yet to prove ‘goo-to-you’ mutations. You have yet to prove what came first: the enzyme to fold the protein, or the protein to be folded into the enzyme.

We’re pretty much there. Enzymes and proteins aren’t problems. We’re past that.

Now, we’re really close to synthesizing RNA from non-living substances.

Explaining how life came about is nearing it’s end-stage.

Because evolution is a system of belief. It is the atheist’s Godless answer to our origin. We know that God exists, which is why the very agenda behind evolution’s origin is ridiculous.

The scientist only wants to investigate what can be observed. As gods can’t be observed, they are excluded from that domain.

 

[Noose001]

The scientist only wants to investigate what can be observed. As gods can’t be observed, they are excluded from that domain.

Scientists can’t observe darkness but it is there by common understanding.

 

[rossum]

There was major tectonic uplift during the Flood, as a result the tectonic activity caused by the opening of the Fountains of the deep; which were the subterranean oceans.

So, have you calculated the amount of energy released by moving that much rock, and by the friction caused by the movement? Thermodynamics tells us that exerting that much force on that much rock releases a lot of energy. The sort of energy that is enough to boil the oceans. That is before the energy we can see implicit in every tonne of volcanic rock on earth. That is before we count the major meteorite impacts we know about, over thirty of them.

If you try to compress 5 billion years of earth’s history into 6,000 years then you have to compress 5 billion years of heat production into 6,000 years. If you just include plate tectonics then you boil the oceans. If you include other heat sources then you don’t just boil the oceans, you melt the rocks as well.

Here is ICR, a YEC organisation, on the heat problem:

The Heat Problem

Of greater concern to both supporters and skeptics of the RATE project is the issue of how to dispose of the tremendous quantities of heat generated by accelerated decay during the Genesis Flood. The amount of heat produced by a decay rate of a million times faster than normal during the year of the Flood could potentially vaporize the earth’s oceans, melt the crust, and obliterate the surface of the earth. The RATE group is confident that the accelerated decay they discovered was not only caused by God, but that the necessary removal of heat was also superintended by Him as well. Dr. Russell Humphreys, a member of the RATE group, has suggested one possible mechanism that may explain this dilemma. He has found evidence, both scientific and scriptural, that cooling of the earth by the expansion of the cosmos may have occurred simultaneously with the heat produced by accelerated decay.

Source: ICR - RATE in Review: Unresolved Problems

If you need God to tidy up the mess then you are not doing science but theology. That is why a 6,000 year old YEC timescale is not accepted by science; it is not science.

 

[Hume]

We are making good progress. I need your opinion on the following:

1.Is a day related in any way to earth movements against the sun as observed?

Sure. One spin on the axis is a day. Divided into 24 hours. That’s how we measure that amount of time. A Mars “day” is 24.6 earth-hours long, or 1 sol.

2.Is a year related in any way to earth movements against the sun as observed?

Sure. One revolution around the sun is 1 year. Divided into 365 days. A Mars day is 687 earth-days long, or 668 sols (mars-days).

3.Is a second related in any way to a day?

Sure, 24 hours divided by 60 minutes divided by 60 seconds.

What you need to keep in mind is that when trying to compare our second to another planet’s equivalent, the speed of light is fixed. So if you use a different time measure of measure the same length of the speed of light in a given time - the length remains the same. Only the unit changed.

4.Can the speed of light be presented in the form of distance coverage per second

This is how it’s presented, typically. Meters per second.

Again, understand that if you change the unit, you’ve not changed the speed of light - only how you choose to measure it. The speed is constant.

If a Pluto second is twice as long as an earth second, then the speed of light would still be the same on Pluto. You just measured it in different units.

 

[Hume]

Hume:

The scientist only wants to investigate what can be observed. As gods can’t be observed, they are excluded from that domain.

Scientists can’t observe darkness but it is there by common understanding.

I observe darkness every time I close the door and turn off the light…

 

[Noose001]

This is how it’s presented, typically. Meters per second.

Again, understand that if you change the unit, you’ve not changed the speed of light - only how you choose to measure it. The speed is constant.

If a Pluto second is twice as long as an earth second, then the speed of light would still be the same on Pluto. You just measured it in different units.

I have not changed the unit of measure i said the rate is earth dependent and you missed the point, it is not the movement against the sun that matters, it is the observation of this movement and thus the experience of passage of time by consciousness that matters.

IOW, there’s no rate outside consciousness.

 

[Noose001]

I observe darkness every time I close the door and turn off the light…

How?

 

[Hume]

Hume:

This is how it’s presented, typically. Meters per second.

Again, understand that if you change the unit, you’ve not changed the speed of light - only how you choose to measure it. The speed is constant.

If a Pluto second is twice as long as an earth second, then the speed of light would still be the same on Pluto. You just measured it in different units.

I have not changed the unit of measure i said the rate is earth dependent and you missed the point, it is not the movement against the sun that matters, it is the observation of this movement and thus the experience of passage of time by consciousness.

IOW, there’s no rate outside consciousness.

Sure there is.

When we really try to measure the speed of light with the most precision and training, we all get the same answer.

That means it exists discretely from consciousness.

 

[Hume]

An olive branch;

The beauty of the Winged Victory of Samothrace does not exist discretely from consciousness.

I think it’s the most moving piece of art in the world. My wife thinks it’s just another sculpture.

But boy, look at her…

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

Go to Paris and see it in person. It’ll move you.

 

[rossum]

We are making good progress. I need your opinion on the following:

1.Is a day related in any way to earth movements against the sun as observed?
2.Is a year related in any way to earth movements against the sun as observed?
3.Is a second related in any way to a day?
4.Can the speed of light be presented in the form of distance coverage per second

I know you didn’t ask me directly, but I can answer these questions.

1. It used to be, but is now defined in terms of a number of seconds. Hence the occasional insertion of a “leap second” to keep the defined day roughly in line with the rotation of the earth.
2. It used to be, but is now defined in terms of a number of seconds.
3. It used to be, but is now defined in terms the transitions of the caesium-133 atom. Specifically, the SI definition of a second is: “the time that elapses during 9,192,631,770 (9.192631770 x 109) cycles of the radiation produced by the transition between two levels of the caesium-133 atom.”
4. The speed of light is 299,792,458 metres/second. Effectively 300,000 kilometres per second.

 

[Hume]

Wish I was half as educated as you appear to be, Rossum.