Evolution and Creationism

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Freddy:
So yeah. That’s actually how science does work.
Theories should be challenged.
Then you need to challenge all biological theories and geological theories and physics theories and chemistry theories and astrophysical theories and astronomy theories (etc etc etc) that reach a consensus (there’s that word again) that tells us the planet is a few billion years old.

Seems you have your work cut out.
 
Then you need to challenge all biological theories and geological theories and physics theories and chemistry theories and astrophysical theories and astronomy theories (etc etc etc) that reach a consensus (there’s that word again) that tells us the planet is a few billion years old.

Seems you have your work cut out.
I really like biology.
 
Theories should be challenged.
The theory of evolution has been challenged scientifically. Repeatedly. But that is not what I see on this forum. I see religious-based attacks, which almost always rely on a misapplication or misunderstanding of Catholic teaching.
 
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Freddy:
Then you need to challenge all biological theories and geological theories and physics theories and chemistry theories and astrophysical theories and astronomy theories (etc etc etc) that reach a consensus (there’s that word again) that tells us the planet is a few billion years old.

Seems you have your work cut out.
I really like biology.
Well you’d better get up to speed with it plus all other branches of the natural sciences as well and start dismantling all of the theories within each of them that reach a consensus (that word keeps popping up, doesn’t it) on the age of the earth and come up with a replacement for each.

Or you could say that you prefer to accept a literal translation of Genesis and be done with it.

Your call…
 
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The theory of evolution has been challenged scientifically. Repeatedly. But that is not what I see on this forum. I see religious-based attacks, which almost always rely on a misapplication or misunderstanding of Catholic teaching.
Nonsense, Anyone challenging macroevolution is labeled a science denier. In academia they dare not for fear of losing their jobs.

The ship is starting to turn, though,
 
Nonsense, Anyone challenging macroevolution is labeled a science denier. In academia they dare not for fear of losing their jobs.

The ship is starting to turn, though,
OK, so you admit that macroevolution is still accepted science. Then why did you say that it is not?
 
By many. The grip is loosening as we learn more.
In other words, yes, you know that scientific consensus remains in favor of evolution, and that no serious “anti-evolution” movement exists in the scientific community.

This is the problem I have with these conversations, which we have been involved in for years. I really don’t care what individuals believe. My main issue is with those that claim, incorrectly, that evolution is somehow contrary to Catholic teaching. Secondarily, I have an issue with those that claim evolution has been somehow disproved, knowing that is absolutely untrue. To your credit, you generally fall into the second category, and I don’t recall you asserting the first. But both arguments are misleading at best, to be honest.
 
Would you be worried that your concept of God might be completely wrong? That He might be a deist God as opposed to a personal one?
If this could somehow be the case I’d have a lot of questions regarding my experience and the experiences of very many throughout the millenia. Of course there’d be a LOT of questions about the basic claims and evidences of the Faith.
But worry? I don’t think I would.
 
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Theories should be challenged.
Many people hate it, but I really think there is an important role at play by those who support minority or even fringe positions in academia.
Their critiques can cause greater care and deeper study in ie the majority position camp, promoting critical thinking.
And, even if this would be rare, they may even occasionally present evidences or reasons that can cause a major change in the prevailing model!

But, what is your specific evidence/analysis of the prevailing evolutionary claims? Or do you have different scholarly works that demonstrate these if you’re not personally the one doing the analyses?
 
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But, what is your specific evidence/analysis of the prevailing evolutionary claims? Or do you have different scholarly works that demonstrate these if you’re not personally the one doing the analyses?
You are late for the party. I have been posting scholarly and mainstream science for 15 years.
 
It makes more sense than other creation theories. Thanks for the insight.
 
Astrophysicist Robert Jastrow, a self-described agnostic, stated, “The seed of everything that has happened in the Universe was planted in that first instant; every star, every planet and every living creature in the Universe came into being as a result of events that were set in motion in the moment of the cosmic explosion. It was literally the moment of Creation. …The Universe flashed into being, and we cannot find out what caused that to happen.” As stated, this conclusion is distressing to atheistic scientists. To observe a reaction and not be able to document the cause is unsettling.

Jastrow concludes, "For the scientist who has lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries."

Imagine the relief of these scientists when astronomers Hermann Bondi, Thomas Gold, and Fred Hoyle advanced what became known as the “steady state” universe in 1948. Their theory was that the universe was infinite in age. Thus, no creation or no cause was needed.

However, in the 1960s, the steady state theory suffered a devastating blow when two radio engineers at Bell Labs (Arno Penzias and Robert Wilson) discovered mysterious radiation coming from space. It came equally from all directions. When the temperature of the radiation was measured, its source was confirmed. This radiation did not always exist, or come from one part of the universe. It came from that singular, original moment of creation.

Later, in 1996, NASA’s Cosmic Background Explorer (COBE) satellite also further confirmed that the primordial background radiation pointed to an explosive start of the universe. The levels of hydrogen, lithium, deuterium, and helium that exist in our universe today confirm it as well.

Are there any scientists who still want to counter the implications of the Big Bang Theory? Yes. There are scientists who are uncomfortable living with: (1) an unknown cause or (2) the conclusion that God is the cause. So they opt for a third option.

Other Attempts to Explain the Beginning of the Universe​

What explanation do these scientists give for the start to our entire universe, energy, time, and space?

They attempt to simply negate the foundational premise that science rests on: that everything that begins to exist must have a cause.

Physicist Victor Stenger says the universe may be “uncaused” and may have “emerged from nothing.” Philosopher Bertrand Russell adopted this position in a debate on the existence of God. He said, “The universe is just here, and that’s all.”
 
It is one thing to state that something is eternal, and therefore no “cause” is necessary. But it is entirely different to scientifically observe the start of something, the instantaneous beginning of something, and then try to say that it had no cause.

Even David Hume, one of the most skeptical of all philosophers, regarded this position as ridiculous. For all his skepticism, Hume never denied causation. Hume wrote, "I have never asserted so absurd a proposition as that anything might arise without cause."

Pure scientific findings consistently point to only one conclusion: the universe had a singular start, an explosion, where everything we know–the universe, time, space, scientific laws we observe–all had a beginning. Science provides a reason to believe that God exists and powerfully created all things.

It is logical to conclude that God, who is from the beginning, eternal and outside of time, created time. God who is present everywhere and cannot be confined to space, created space. God who is spiritual, non-physical and outside of matter is the source of our universe and all that is. This is the message blatantly repeated throughout the Bible.

"Lift your eyes and look to the heavens: Who created all these? Do you not know? Have you not heard? The Lord is the everlasting God, the Creator of the ends of the earth."
 
Quite a long post to claim a God of the gaps argument.

And I’d be careful about implying that uncaused causes cannot happen because they are logically impossible. It’s logically impossible for a particle to be in two places at the same time. And logically impossible for a father to be younger than his son. And logically impossible to see something that doesn’t exist. But all these are possible.

I’d suggest you leave science in the lab and deal with theology in the church. ‘We don’t know how it happened therefore it must have been a god’ has been around a very long time and was a bad argument even when we didn’t know very much at all.
 
Their critiques can cause greater care and deeper study in ie the majority position camp, promoting critical thinking.
A good example is Professor Behe’s idea of Irreducible Complexity. When he proposed it, the impact triggered a lot of useful work around the idea. Papers such as Thornhill and Ussery (2000) and Lenski (2003) resulted from the study of Behe’s idea.

To give Behe his due, he modified his original hypothesis in the light of the various studies that were done. Irreducibly complex systems cannot evolve by the direct route, but they can evolve by indirect routes. In that sense, Behe’s insight has been partially incorporated into current evolutionary theory.
 
I have never met anyone who denied evolution that did not have a religious basis for doing so.
As you could not back up your strawman, I can’t say it was nice to meet you.

This is the Philosophy Forum
 
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