Evolution and fake fossils

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edwest2 said:
To my fellow Catholics -

Fake fossils are not a thing of the past. They are being made in China:

paleodirect.com/fakechinesefossils1.htm

The Chinese are doctoring real fossils to make money and apparently their craftsmanship is very good.

God bless,
Ed
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Ed,
I am one of your fellow Catholics. I would like to remind you that Catholics are free to accept evolution. Please do not give the false impression that in order to be a faithful Catholic, one must turn his back on reason and accept a young-earth creationism.
God love you,
Paul
 
“reason” That critical word. The one used by Rally for Reason to protest at the creation museum.

I’m not turning my back on anything but when a Cardinal of the Catholic Church says that most science going on today is ideology, not science, how do you respond? How should Catholics respond?

If you think the Catholic Church believes in “reason,” tell me why they allow Catholics to believe in a young earth? It’s not my idea. I didn’t arrange for that to happen.

God bless,
Ed
 
Which doesn’t deal with the problem clearly explained by the site. Once again, I’m not saying all fossils are fakes.

God bless,
Ed
 
edwest2 said:
Which doesn’t deal with the problem clearly explained by the site. Once again, I’m not saying all fossils are fakes.

God bless,
Ed
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No, just the ones those evil scientists use to show evolution occurred. All other follis are real. But those dark deluded scientists are trying to hide the “truth” as best they can, cause they all know it’s a farse.

Ok, I’m sorry, I’m being a jerk 🙂
 
There was a “Science Friday” program way back when on the reptile-dinosaur-bird fossils, including the fake one Archaeraptor. I’ll see if I can find the MP3…

old programs on the transitional bird fossils

There are ways to convert these to MP3 if you don’t like “Real” audio.

Phil P
 
In fact, Olson thinks that birds and dinosaurs have a common ancestor. He differs with the paleontologists only the the details of when birds split off from dinosaurs. You sure you want to take him as the expert, Ed?

Al Feduccia sing dis song;
Doo Da, Doo Da
“Compsognathus’ tail is long.”
Oh, Doo Da Day

Olson says “It just won’t fly.”
Doo Da, Doo Da
“Archie’s different, I don’t know why.”
Oh, Doo Da Day

“Dino forelegs short; Archy forelegs long.
What’s all this ‘allometry’ stuff?
Somebody tell me it’s wrong.”
 
He sent the letter. Scientists, and editors, can succumb to ideology and compelled by it, publish false and unsubstantiated claims. It negates the idea that science is or can always be impartial. This is consistent with Cardinal Schoenborn’s justifiable claim that most science today is ideology, not science. It is why people like yourself market it on sites like this; the ideology comes first, science second. It is why I reject textbook evolution as the whole answer. The honest party in this discussion is the Catholic Church which is now defending reason itself from the spread of a distorted ideology.

Peace,
Ed
 
edwest2 said:
“reason” That critical word. The one used by Rally for Reason to protest at the creation museum.

I’m not turning my back on anything but when a Cardinal of the Catholic Church says that most science going on today is ideology, not science, how do you respond? How should Catholics respond?
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By being careful not to make that mistake - confusing ideology with science. Science should strive to learn the truth. To do that, it must keep an open mind, not ignoring any evidence.
If you think the Catholic Church believes in “reason,” tell me why they allow Catholics to believe in a young earth? It’s not my idea. I didn’t arrange for that to happen.
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Note that the Church “allows”, not commands that we accept young earth creationism.

Since there is no sure proof that the earth is not young (though there are mountains of evidence), it is still reasonable for someone to accept the plain reading of scripture. I don’t agree with the young earth view, but that doesn’t mean I think it is unreasonable.
God bless,
Ed
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You too. 🙂
 
You don’t think the young earth view is unreasonable? Why? Surely you’ve read a few things here that go against that idea.

God bless,
Ed
 
edwest2 said:
You don’t think the young earth view is unreasonable? Why? Surely you’ve read a few things here that go against that idea.

God bless,
Ed
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Because it has not been proven false. It is not unreasonable to believe in something which has not been proven false. I personally think there is a mountain of evidence against it, but that is only evidence, not proof. I think that there is a tremendous amount of evidence for evolution, but it is still an unproven theory. That’s why it is not unreasonable to disbelieve it. Incorrect, IMHO, but not unreasonable.

If someone opines that it is unreasonable to reject an unproven theory, I disregard his opinion as biased.

God love you,
Paul
 
A mountain of evidence but no proof? I am totally unfamiliar with the science you write about. My studies in electronics and chemistry were easily provable, all you offer is some word play.

There are two clear chemicals, but when mixed together, turn purple, and will always do so, reliably. As part of my studies in electronics, I assembled a radio with parts and a diagram. Once a battery was added, it worked. This is science not some vague words.

Peace,
Ed
 
Why the hostility, Ed? I have not picked a fight with you, but you seem to want to fight the whole world. You won’t change peoples’ hearts that way, if that’s what you are trying to do.

You seem to be under the impression that I am trying to preach evolution, just as you are preaching against it. But I’m not. I don’t care at all whether someone accepts the theory or not. I don’t believe it makes any practical difference in a person’s life, nor does it affect his salvation.

I’ve noticed that people who hold certain beliefs are always angry, paranoid and miserable. We see this with JWs, SDAs and young-earth creationists. It makes me suspect that their disagreeable demeanor is a result of a false belief system that generates painful cognitive dissonance.

If you are unfamiliar with the science, as you claim, then read up on it if you are interested. You may enjoy it.

Lighten up, Ed. We’re all friends here. Your attitude does your beliefs a cruel disservice.

God bless you,
Paul
 
I have a question for you, Ed. You have started several threads here over the years, most if not all of them arguing against evolution. Obviously you feel that it is very important to convince people to reject the theory.

Why is it so important?

I really want to know.

God love you,
Paul
 
PaulDupre said:
Why the hostility, Ed? I have not picked a fight with you, but you seem to want to fight the whole world. You won’t change peoples’ hearts that way, if that’s what you are trying to do.

You seem to be under the impression that I am trying to preach evolution, just as you are preaching against it. But I’m not. I don’t care at all whether someone accepts the theory or not. I don’t believe it makes any practical difference in a person’s life, nor does it affect his salvation.

I’ve noticed that people who hold certain beliefs are always angry, paranoid and miserable. We see this with JWs, SDAs and young-earth creationists. It makes me suspect that their disagreeable demeanor is a result of a false belief system that generates painful cognitive dissonance.

If you are unfamiliar with the science, as you claim, then read up on it if you are interested. You may enjoy it.

Lighten up, Ed. We’re all friends here. Your attitude does your beliefs a cruel disservice.

God bless you,
Paul
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Why the appeal to emotion, Paul? I gave you two solid examples. In case you haven’t noticed, this artificial debate is going on in many forums on the internet. Those who proclaim science get frustrated with those who don’t accept evolution and then attack the Bible, which is what they want to destroy.

Also, the internet is filled with nameless, faceless people. I do not know any of you. There’s a big difference between that and all of us sitting around a room talking face to face. I think you get that.

Peace,
Ed
 
PaulDupre said:
I have a question for you, Ed. You have started several threads here over the years, most if not all of them arguing against evolution. Obviously you feel that it is very important to convince people to reject the theory.

Why is it so important?

I really want to know.

God love you,
Paul
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I’m confused Paul, here you ask why, and in a nearby post, say you don’t care.

Let me be very clear: the theory of evolution is incomplete. It is missing critical information. The Catholic Church teaches that a purely unguided evolutionary process is impossible, divine providence must be involved. Those who preach textbook evolution only deny to people the rest of the answer.

Peace,
Ed
 
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edwest2:
Those who proclaim science get frustrated with those who don’t accept evolution and then attack the Bible, which is what they want to destroy.
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Ed,
Are you saying that people who accept evolution are motivated by a desire to destroy the bible?

People like Pope Pius XII, Pope John XXIII, Pope Paul VI, Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI? They all accepted the theory of evolution. Are you really saying that they all wanted to destroy the bible? Really?

I find that both ridiculous and personally offensive, Ed. I love the bible. I am a lector at my parish and study the bible daily. I employ my knowledge of the bible in defending the faith, here on these forums as well as in “real life”. I accept the theory of evolution in principle (recognizing the science of genetics as a work in process) and see no conflict between evolution and the bible. In fact, I see the science behind creation as giving great glory to God who created physics, chemistry, biology and math. I am not attacking the bible. I am accepting the theory of evolution as the best explanation currently available for life as we know it, and praising God for His glory.

I also accept the theory of the Big Bang (first posited by a Belgian Catholic priest, Father Georges Lemaitre) as the point at which God said “Let there be light”. Does that make me less Christan than you?

Paul
 
National Geographic is highly credible,they scrutinize everything before publishing. Nevertheless they did buy into the fraudulent fossil. The beauty of the whole thing is that SCIENCE WILL,UNLIKE MOST APOLOGETICS, WILL ADMIT WHEN THEY ARE WRONG.

SO WHAT ARE YOU LEFT WITH?? THE BEST FOSSIL FORGERY OF ALL TIME,AND STILL SCIENCE WEEDED IT OUT IN THE INTEREST OF TRUTH…IMAGINE A CREATION ORGANIZATION WEEDING OUT ALL THEIR ********…like the Discovery Institute stealing a Harvard Students work,then editing the sound,changing the title and using for their agenda.All because they have NO SCIENCE,they steal others…Did they weed out their own forgery?? Answer:NO!..luckily they got caught…
 
PaulDupre said:
Ed,
Are you saying that people who accept evolution are motivated by a desire to destroy the bible?

People like Pope Pius XII, Pope John XXIII, Pope Paul VI, Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI? They all accepted the theory of evolution. Are you really saying that they all wanted to destroy the bible? Really?

I find that both ridiculous and personally offensive, Ed. I love the bible. I am a lector at my parish and study the bible daily. I employ my knowledge of the bible in defending the faith, here on these forums as well as in “real life”. I accept the theory of evolution in principle (recognizing the science of genetics as a work in process) and see no conflict between evolution and the bible. In fact, I see the science behind creation as giving great glory to God who created physics, chemistry, biology and math. I am not attacking the bible. I am accepting the theory of evolution as the best explanation currently available for life as we know it, and praising God for His glory.

I also accept the theory of the Big Bang (first posited by a Belgian Catholic priest, Father Georges Lemaitre) as the point at which God said “Let there be light”. Does that make me less Christan than you?

Paul
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Hi Paul,

I don’t accept the big bang theory. If you read up on astronomy, astronomers are finding “young” objects in “old” places in the universe. Objects that should not be there according to current theories.

It’s incorrect to generalize but you have done so. I think you can distinguish, especially here, the posters who clearly say things like, I don’t care what your Pope says, the evidence doesn’t support it. Or have you missed the regular posts here that deny certain things in the Bible never happened? I think you can tell the difference between Catholics who understand Church teaching and those that make anti-God and anti-Biblical statements.

All of the Popes have made conditional statements about evolution, or, to put it another way, they’ve said, sure, study it, but certain fixed points must be kept in view. I suggest you read Human Persons Created in the Image of God, part 69. It is made very clear that a random evolutionary process without divine providence simply cannot exist. Too many here are telling you, yes it can. Science says so.

Peace,
Ed
 
edwest2 said:
I’m confused Paul, here you ask why, and in a nearby post, say you don’t care.
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I said I don’t care whether people accept evolution or not. I care very much why you, a faithful Catholic, find it so important to debate evolution, because I think you do yourself a disservice thereby.
Let me be very clear: the theory of evolution is incomplete. It is missing critical information. The Catholic Church teaches that a purely unguided evolutionary process is impossible, divine providence must be involved. Those who preach textbook evolution only deny to people the rest of the answer.
Click to expand...
Peace,
Ed
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But Catholics and other Christians who accept evolution do not accept an unguided, atheistic brand of evolution. We see evolution as a mechanism of the ordered and predictable universe that God (who is a God of order and not of confusion) created for us.

The problem of those who believe in atheistic evolution is not evolution, it is atheism. You will never convince an atheist that he must recognize divine providence. His mind and heart is not prepared for it. Instead of arguing about evolution, which produces no result, evangelize him with the good news of the Gospel of Christ! Once he accepts the good news, his view of evolution will take care of itself. That’s precisely what happened to me, and to my adult son who was baptized and confirmed this past Easter.

Remember, we are not out to win arguments, we are out to win souls for Christ.

God love you, brother.
Paul
 
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