Evolution and God

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masterjedi747 said:
Sorry, Ed, real life doesn’t work like a business contract.
Not to mention the fact that there’s a lot of things that don’t go into a biology textbook.

If someone leaves God out of a math textbook, that doesn’t mean they are denying His existence. If someone leaves God out of a physics or chemistry textbook, that doesn’t mean they don’t recognize that He created the universe. If someone leaves God out of a biology textbook, that doesn’t mean they’re necessarily denying the role that His Divine Providence plays in producing “random” mutations and guiding natural selection.

“There is grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed into a few forms or into one; and that, whilst this planet has gone cycling on according to the fixed law of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being, evolved.” – Charles Robert Darwin, On The Origin of Species

I said the fusion of modern science and orthodox philosophy… not the uneducated intellectual ramblings of people who know half of story, but miserably fail to acknowledge the existence of the man’s God-given rational/spiritual soul.

Yes. But that’s no excuse for “throwing the baby out with the bath water”, as the phrase goes.
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Nonsense. Militant Atheists are currently using evolution as a club to beat down believers. There is no room for debate, they’ve decided. The evidence is in, we’re right and you’re wrong. But the KEY thing to keep in mind is that it never stops there. Any who resist assimilation are attacked as religious nuts, cretards and by other names. The Bible is also attacked as a book of myths or fairy tales. So it becomes very clear very fast, that it’s not just about Genesis, it’s about the whole book.

They want to throw out the baby, the bath water and your stupid beliefs about some invisible man in the sky.

God bless,
Ed
 
JRKH said:
I’m curious why some people don’t think both can co-exist. Why not Random AND non-random acts.

Say I set up a large aquarium - lets say 200 gallons. I set it up carefully and completely so that it is virually self sustaining. I place live plants, and Fish and other Creatures in it. Then I sit back and watch it.
Occasionally I check the water level and top it off, or clean the filters etc. But mainly it hums along nicely for awhile. (indirect intervention)
After a while I notice that some of the fish are eating the young of other fish. I watch it but don’t actually do anything about it. Eventually one species dies out because all of the young are eaten.
Since I like a nice full tank, I go and get some more, different fish and introduce them. They then go after a specific plant species and eat it gone. So I replace with a different plant.
And so it goes… Some Changes are “Random” - Simply the result of the interaction of the environment. Some Changes are by "Design’ - Water levels, cleaning filters, changing fish and plants etc.

I realize this is a far cry from “gene” mutation, but still it illustrates a point. God can set things up however He wishes, and then He can “interfere” or not just as He wishes also. Why should it make a difference which He chooses?

Peace
James
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Right - and at some point he can just drop a completely new fish with a soul in there regardless of what may have been going on in the tank at the time.
 
strugglingalong said:
Yes and some of us also think natural selection is counterproductive to Salvation.

Pax Christi tecum.
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Unless, of course, “Natural Selection” turns out to be part of God’s plan and methodology.
Who Knows? Why Ask?
Forget about it and Pray for God to give you the Graces you need for your daily life. Let’s work on our own salvation and let God worry about how things work.

Like others have said - It’s God, How can we know how He has chosen to do things in minute detail.

Peace
James
 
JRKH << At the end of the day, just how will all of this keyslapping tit-for-tat, advance your own spirituality? The Whole thing is just so much hot-air on both sides. >>

I disagree, it is still one of the biggest (generates the most posts), most important topics (since it potentially threatens the faith) we discuss in here. And it is difficult for some people to reconcile evolution with the Catholic faith. So we continue to discuss the details, helping those who (1) don’t understand evolution, and/or those who (2) interpret Genesis literally, and/or those who (3) insist the Church rejects evolution.

And I always link my same articles and books that I have since May 2004 in here, although new ones are published all the time like:

Saving Darwin: How to Be a Christian and Believe in Evolution

But I agree it can become quite redundant and repetitive. :yawn:

Phil P
 
Orogeny said:
An acknowledgement that nothing is a surprise to God? That He is omniscient.

Peace

Tim
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I agree - man was no surprise to Him. He had Him in mind all along.

So the bottom line - was evolution with regard to man necessary?
 
buffalo said:
Right - and at some point he can just drop a completely new fish with a soul in there regardless of what may have been going on in the tank at the time.
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Yup He could. He could also just as easily Change one of the fish already there.
Isn’t God’s Power amazing?

Peace
James
 
Namesake said:
Most scientists have no problem with people who choose to believe in some sort of design. The problems arise when design is mandated in science curricula. Believe all you want but keep it within the confines of religion. Design is not science.
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And here is the ugly, false and political reality. Keep it out of science class because (drum roll) we can’t have God in public schools. It is absolutely forbidden. That’s not scientific inquiry, that’s censorship. That’s politics. That’s a power struggle. And by the way, I will never support any institute that wants to force people to believe in God.

Design is not science? If I left all the parts of a bicycle lying around for a billion years, would they assemble themselves? If I left off the chain, would the bike work? Give me a break. A living cell consists of interrelated and interdependent parts. How do I modify it without wrecking the internal machinery? How can I take out a part and expect it to work?

God bless,
Ed
 
JRKH said:
Yup He could. He could also just as easily Change one of the fish already there.
Isn’t God’s Power amazing?

Peace
James
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Sure He could. But then there is this nasty problem of dualism.
 
JRKH said:
I realize this is a far cry from “gene” mutation, but still it illustrates a point. God can set things up however He wishes, and then He can “interfere” or not just as He wishes also. Why should it make a difference which He chooses?

Peace
James
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Because Divine Providence excludes it. God governs all things:

“Certain effects are said to be contingent as compared to their proximate causes, which may fail in their effects; and not as though anything could happen entirely outside the order of Divine government. The very fact that something occurs outside the order of some proximate cause, is owing to some other cause, itself subject to the Divine government.” (Summa Theologica, Prima Pars, Section 103, Question 7).

Pax Christi tecum.
 
edwest2 said:
And here is the ugly, false and political reality. Keep it out of science class because (drum roll) we can’t have God in public schools. It is absolutely forbidden. That’s not scientific inquiry, that’s censorship. That’s politics. That’s a power struggle. And by the way, I will never support any institute that wants to force people to believe in God.

Design is not science? If I left all the parts of a bicycle lying around for a billion years, would they assemble themselves? If I left off the chain, would the bike work? Give me a break. A living cell consists of interrelated and interdependent parts. How do I modify it without wrecking the internal machinery? How can I take out a part and expect it to work?

God bless,
Ed
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Why can’t schools teach design without naming the Designer? I’d prefer they offer an explanation of God as an alternative. That wouldn’t be forcing it.

Pax Christi tecum.
 
edwest2 said:
A living cell consists of interrelated and interdependent parts. How do I modify it without wrecking the internal machinery? How can I take out a part and expect it to work?
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Happens all the time. Bacteria do it routinely and some end up resistant to antibiotics that would have killed their progenitors.
 
PhilVaz said:
JRKH << At the end of the day, just how will all of this keyslapping tit-for-tat, advance your own spirituality? The Whole thing is just so much hot-air on both sides. >>

I disagree, it is still one of the biggest (generates the most posts), most important topics (since it potentially threatens the faith) we discuss in here. And it is difficult for some people to reconcile evolution with the Catholic faith. So we continue to discuss the details, helping those who (1) don’t understand evolution, and/or those who (2) interpret Genesis literally, and/or those who (3) insist the Church rejects evolution.

And I always link my same articles and books that I have since May 2004 in here, although new ones are published all the time like:

Saving Darwin: How to Be a Christian and Believe in Evolution

But I agree it can become quite redundant and repetitive. :yawn:

Phil P
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“potentially threatens the faith”? It can create a problem when some people start to listen to a few people here that insist the evidence proves certain parts of your holy book wrong.

It does not threaten the faith when people realize the biology textbook is incomplete and that God infallibly guided whatever process occurred (one that is not a complete, scientifically proven theory according to Pope Benedict - and if you have a problem with his wording, send a letter to the Vatican).

God bless,
Ed
 
strugglingalong said:
There is nothing random by the Most Holy Trinity. Nothing about it sounds or appears random to me. It is in fact quite ordered: the Father begets His Son in love and their love is the Holy Ghost. What am I missing that appears random about it that is similar to natural selection?
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No, the reason I asked that question is that you wrote:
So what appears to everyone else, to every scientist, as random is in fact God at work? I find that difficult.
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The reason I asked about the Trinity is that is one of the mysteries of our faith. How can 3 be 1? How can the Father be God, the Son be God and the Holy Spirit be God yet the Father is not the Son is not the Holy Spirit? How can we comprehend a God that is everywhere at all times (past, present and future) simultaneously?

Those are mysteries because we, as humans, cannot understand that. That being the case, why, if we can accept the concept of the Trinity or God’s omniscience, why is the idea that what is random to us isn’t to God?

Peace

Tim
 
Namesake said:
Happens all the time. Bacteria do it routinely and some end up resistant to antibiotics that would have killed their progenitors.
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I’m doubtful it occurs on the macro level, especially as described in the biology textbook. Bacteria have built-in means to protect themselves, like lateral gene transfer between different species of bacteria. This capability is built-in. Also, bacteria have been found in dirt that were found to already be resistant to antibiotics, including synthetics.

God bless,
Ed
 
buffalo said:
I agree - man was no surprise to Him. He had Him in mind all along.

So the bottom line - was evolution with regard to man necessary?
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It seems to have been since that is what God used!😉

Peace

Tim
 
JRKH said:
Unless, of course, “Natural Selection” turns out to be part of God’s plan and methodology.
Who Knows? Why Ask?
Forget about it and Pray for God to give you the Graces you need for your daily life. Let’s work on our own salvation and let God worry about how things work.

Like others have said - It’s God, How can we know how He has chosen to do things in minute detail.

Peace
James
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Hi James,

Let’s forget about it? Have you read the Bible? Do you not know that from the beginning he made them male and female?

Are you missing the part where people come in here, and post what they call absolutely true information they say contradicts this or that part of the Bible?

Why did Jesus have to be born? What was the reason?

God bless,
Ed
 
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