Evolution and Racism

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You really ought to quote the next paragraph…
The next paragraph was already quoted. I thought it a tad odd that the previous one (which I quoted) was left out. As I said earlier in this thread, Charles Darwin’s scientific ideas clearly lead to racist and eugenicist conclusions. That Darwin himself backed away from these conclusions after offering them is to his credit. That he arrived at them to begin with, not so much. Others didn’t share Darwin’s conflicted scruples, and unknown numbers of minorities and persons with disabilities suffered as a result.

– Mark L. Chance.
 
The next paragraph was already quoted. I thought it a tad odd that the previous one (which I quoted) was left out. As I said earlier in this thread, Charles Darwin’s scientific ideas clearly lead to racist and eugenicist conclusions. That Darwin himself backed away from these conclusions after offering them is to his credit. That he arrived at them to begin with, not so much. Others didn’t share Darwin’s conflicted scruples, and unknown numbers of minorities and persons with disabilities suffered as a result.

– Mark L. Chance.
People misappropriate stuff all the time but that doesn’t mean they cast aspersions on the originator of the idea. The point is that Charles Darwin did not in any way mean for his idea about biological evolution to extend into the evil of eugenics.

You really need to be more careful when you cast those stones so easily. Your claim that the originator of the theory of evolution somehow also originated modern eugenics is way far off the mark. It just isn’t true and you should be ashamed to promulgate such a slander against one of the most important scientists ever, and by the way he was a very humble gentleman too.
 
Your claim that the originator of the theory of evolution somehow also originated modern eugenics is way far off the mark. It just isn’t true and you should be ashamed to promulgate such a slander against one of the most important scientists ever, and by the way he was a very humble gentleman too.
Since I never made any such claim, your pedantic admonishment is little more than silly.

😛

– Mark L. Chance.
 
Counterpoint by Darwin himself:
Code:
We civilized men . . . do our utmost to check the process of elimination; we build asylums for the imbecile, the maimed, and the sick; we institute poor laws; and our medical men exert their utmost skill to save the life of everyone to the last moment. . . . Thus the weak members of civilized societies propagate their kind. No one who has attended to the breeding of domestic animals will doubt that this must be highly injurious to the race of man. It is surprising how soon a want of care, or care wrongly directed, leads to the degeneration of a domestic race; but excepting in the case of man himself, hardly anyone is so ignorant as to allow his worst animals to breed.
Yes. Darwin opposed eugenic ideas on moral grounds. Later Darwinists showed that eugenic ideas are also scientifically insupportable. Darwinian theory offers no comfort to eugenics or to the Holocaust. As you learned, the Nazis got their ideas from Martin Luther, a fact they freely admitted.

But for some reason, you shy away from using the same yardstick on religion. I think everyone understands why. You made a rather foolish assertion, and it backfired on you. Let it go now.
 
Since I never made any such claim, your pedantic admonishment is little more than silly.

😛

– Mark L. Chance.
Your wrote: “Sounds like eugenics to anyone who knows what eugenics sounds like.”

Sounds like you attribute the idea of eugenics to Darwin, no?
 
Perhaps this is a new concept for you, but the truth doesn’t change when you go somewhere else.
If it wasn’t true (or logical) there, it shouldn’t be here either :rolleyes:
Don’t see how. For example, I pointed out that Darwin, according to today’s ethics, would be considered a racist. I also reminded you of at least one case where an evolutionary scientist was a racist. Do you even bother to read the posts?
I sense I hit close to home here if insults is the best you can do today… Of course judging by your responses, you clearly did not read mine.
As you learned, racism is contrary to Darwinian theory, since the modern theory has shown that there are no biological human races. Hence, by definition, racism can’t be Darwinian.
Racists can use Darwinism, which was my point. Deny it all you want, but there were early scientists who were racist, and applied Darwins’s principles. Also, you seem to be ignoring my earlier post of pointing out your amphiboly. Race can be used to mean Species or Ethnicity. Regardless of how they understood race in terms of species, many scientists did hold certain ethnicities were inferior to others.
Watson was promptly criticized by other scientists and lost his postion as a result of his racist statments. Morris continued unchallenged as the head of the largest creationist organization. Those are telling facts. If you have something to add, I’m sure we’d all be pleased to see it.
As this is nothing more than a tu quoque it is not relevant to the argument. I’m not defending Creationism, and I have no interest in where their leaders go wrong. I am speaking of Historical Darwinism of the 19th and early 20th century.
I think references to “Sacred Darwin” and the like are obviously hysterical exaggerations. If you don’t, perhaps that’s a clue for you.
Your clue should have been you are treating Darwinism as a Sacred doctrine that cannot be questioned. Whenever someone does, you have a history of going personal.
Perhaps you don’t know that “Tu Quoque” means. Almost all Europeans, Darwinist or not were racists in Darwin’s day. But as the cases of Watson and Morris show, that’s not how it is today.
I know very well what it means. Whenever there is an objection to the behavior of Darwinists, you bring up Creationist sins, and seek to imply that Creationism is the cause of these acts (That’s also a post hoc fallacy btw)
Punnett and Morgan were Darwinians prior to WWII who even then denounced eugenics.
Given that I was speaking of Darwin, Galton and others, I believe you are arguing an issue I have not commented on.
See above. Isn’t that what you just did?
Umm… No.
Of course Darwin did seem to have some ideas that could demonstrate some agreement with Galton:
**Nor could we check our sympathy, if so urged by hard reason, without deterioration in the noblest part of our nature. The surgeon may harden himself whilst performing an operation, for he knows that he is acting for the good of his patient; but if we were intentionally to neglect the weak and helpless, it could only be for a contingent benefit, with a certain and great present evil. **(Descent of Man, page 168-69) (your source)
Why did you omit an important part of what I cited?

Hence we must bear without complaining the undoubtedly bad effects of the weak surviving and propagating their kind; but there appears to be at least one check in steady action, namely the weaker and inferior members of society not marrying so freely as the sound; and this check might be indefinitely increased, though this is more to be hoped for than expected, by the weak in body or mind refraining from marriage.
The Nazis certainly did this, yet you removed it from the part of the book I quoted
This seems precisely contrary to eugenic belief. As you know, about 40 years later, Darwinists showed Dalton’s belief’s to be in error as far as eugenic principles were concerned.
As I pointed out above, what you omitted from my post was crucial. That strikes me as unethical on your part.

You know it would be easier to admit “Yes, some Darwinists took a wrong turn,” rather to deny that Eugenics had anything to do with Darwinism. That Evolutionists would eventually repudiate it does not mean it was not a part of some Darwinist’s views.
No. As you see, Dalton and Darwinists differed on this from the start. At first on ethical grounds, and later also on the grounds that it was scientifically insupportable.
And “No True Scotsman” likes sugar on his porridge. It’s an interesting fallacy. Study it, and stop employing it… 🤷
Given that about 90% of the “Final Solution” was recommended by Martin Luther, and that the Nazis freely credited him with inspiring their activities, Occam’s razor intervenes.
So does Tu Quoque. That Anti-semitism in Germany played a role in the Endlosung is not denied. Why do you deny that the Nazis built on some of Darwin and Galton’s ideas even if other Darwinists repudiated it?

This is irrational dogmatizing of Evolution, which is hardly scientific.
The difference, of course, is the reception Watson got, compared to that of Morris. This is an important difference between science and creationism.
So… when a Darwinist endorses a wrong belief, they are not Darwinists, but when a Creationist does, it is a part of Creationism?

Sorry Barbarian… I do have to view your approach as an unquestionable dogma, which condemns any questions as “Creationist” whether the person believes it or not. :rolleyes:
 
So then, just to be clear on that, you do not accuse Charles Darwin of espousing ideas that promoted eugenics, right?
Curious. First, you falsely accused me of saying Darwin originated modern eugenics. Rather than an apology, there’s now a different question. Why do I get the feeling you’re just fishing around for something you can bash me about?

How tiresome.

– Mark L. Chance.
 
Curious. First, you falsely accused me of saying Darwin originated modern eugenics. Rather than an apology, there’s now a different question. Why do I get the feeling your just fishing around for something you can bash me about?

How tiresome.

– Mark L. Chance.
I’m not trying to bash you at all. I am looking for the reason that you claimed that a quote from Darwin was eugenics. Clearly you made the connection. Do you deny that now?

Your words: “Sounds like eugenics to anyone who knows what eugenics sounds like.”

That’s not fishing, it’s your words.

So do you reject what you wrote?
 
It seems that both sides could potentially use their own theories to promote the crimes of racism.

But what does it matter if neither position actually bases their ideas on racism itself?

Some people have used the Bible to promote racism too, but I have no intention of listening to their silly opinions on this.
Um, this was my point that racists **could **use Darwinism (or religion) to justify their beliefs. Yet some people want to deny that people who held these beliefs were “Darwinist.”

It’s the No True Scotsman fallacy. Christians can be racist. Darwinists can be racists. Darwin seems to have had some racist assumptions in his Descent of Man.

The difference between Darwinists holding racist views and Christians holding racist views is that racist Christians are holding a view contrary to the Scripture (Neither free nor slave, Jew nor Greek anyone?), Racists could point to the teachings of Darwin to justify them.

But who cares? Darwin was not inerrant. Scientists need not feel ashamed that the early Darwinists held to Eugenics and seek to hide it. Just admit it was a wrong end, admit it was repudiated and move on. There is no reason to attempt to deny the errors in early Darwinism.
 
Barbarian:
Punnett and Morgan were Darwinians prior to WWII who even then denounced eugenics.
Given that I was speaking of Darwin, Galton and others,
Darwin wrote forcefully against eugenic ideas in The Descent of Man, calling them a great evil. Truth matters.
Of course Darwin did seem to have some ideas that could demonstrate some agreement with Galton:
Nor could we check our sympathy, if so urged by hard reason, without deterioration in the noblest part of our nature. The surgeon may harden himself whilst performing an operation, for he knows that he is acting for the good of his patient; but if we were intentionally to neglect the weak and helpless, it could only be for a contingent benefit, with a certain and great present evil. (Descent of Man, page 168-69) (your source)
Why did you omit an important part of what I cited?
Although Darwin was a racist, he pointedly rejected eugenics.
Hence we must bear without complaining the undoubtedly bad effects of the weak surviving and propagating their kind; but there appears to be at least one check in steady action, namely the weaker and inferior members of society not marrying so freely as the sound; and this check might be indefinitely increased, though this is more to be hoped for than expected, by the weak in body or mind refraining from marriage.
Note that although Darwin hadn’t the benefit of genetics to know this was scientifically wrong (as Punnet and later Darwinists did when they denounced eugenics), Darwin did denounce it as a great evil.
The Nazis certainly did this,
In defiance of Darwin, and evolutionary theory. They chose to follow Martin Luther instead.

Barbarian observes:
As you know, about 40 years later, Darwinists showed Dalton’s belief’s to be in error as far as eugenic principles were concerned.
As I pointed out above, what you omitted from my post was crucial.
Let me ask you. Do you think that it meant Darwin thought eugenics was a good idea? Or did he think the idea was evil?

What upsets you is that you inadvertently included something that undercut your argument,and I emphasized it.
You know it would be easier to admit “Yes, some Darwinists took a wrong turn,”
So you’re back to denying I told you Darwin was a racist? Wouldn’t it be easier for you to admit that the Holocaust was inspired by German antisemitism in general, and Martin Luther’s advice in particular, and that Darwinists have consistently rejected those ideas?

For evil, any idea can be twisted. It’s just that in this case, you aren’t willing to admit whose idea.

Barbarian observes:
No. As you see, Dalton and Darwinists differed on this from the start. At first on ethical grounds, and later also on the grounds that it was scientifically insupportable.
And “No True Scotsman” likes sugar on his porridge.
You like slogans better than facts. I can see why.

Barbaian observes:
Given that about 90% of the “Final Solution” was recommended by Martin Luther, and that the Nazis freely credited him with inspiring their activities, Occam’s razor intervenes.
So does Tu Quoque.
You should learn what that phrase means. The fact that Luther, not Darwin, inspired the Holocaust is not “Tu Quoque.” Look it up to learn why.
Why do you deny that the Nazis built on some of Darwin and Galton’s ideas
Galton’s maybe. But as you learned, they defied Darwin’s opinion, and those of his later followers.

Barbarian observes:
The difference, of course, is the reception Watson got, compared to that of Morris.
So… when a Darwinist endorses a wrong belief, they are not Darwinists,
No. Watson at least believes evolution, although he’s badly wrong about racial intelligence.
Sorry Barbarian… I do have to view your approach as an unquestionable dogma,
Which apparently insulates you from any of the evidence. There’s a name for that fallacy, too.
 
Barbarian:
Perhaps this is a new concept for you, but the truth doesn’t change when you go somewhere else.
If it wasn’t true (or logical) there, it shouldn’t be here either
As it turns out, there is abundant evidence for it, and the Nazis freely admitted it.

Barbarian on the charge he thinks Darwinians are without error:
Don’t see how. I pointed out that Darwin, according to today’s ethics, would be considered a racist. I also reminded you of a case where a scientist was a racist. you even bother to read the posts?
I sense I hit close to home here
I know I hit home, because you dodged the question, and made an accusation to cover your tracks.

Barbarian observes:
As you learned, racism is contrary to Darwinian theory, since the modern theory has shown that there are no biological human races. Hence, by definition, racism can’t be Darwinian.
Racists can use Darwinism, which was my point.
They can use anything, including religion, capitalism and communism. So why is it that you want to play evolution as something different?
Deny it all you want, but there were early scientists who were racist,
I told you there were. I think you’re arguing with yourself, again.
Race can be used to mean Species or Ethnicity.
In Darwin’s book, it was used in the 18th century meaning, that of “species.”

Barbarian observes:
Watson was promptly criticized by other scientists and lost his postion as a result of his racist statments. Morris continued unchallenged as the head of the largest creationist organization.
As this is nothing more than a tu quoque it is not relevant to the argument.
So you don’t know what the phrase means. You are outraged that Darwin was partially subject to the racism of the 18th century (but less so than most of his fellows, being opposed to slavery and angered by mistreatment of other races) but you get testy whenever racism by creationists is mentioned.
I’m not defending Creationism, and I have no interest in where their leaders go wrong.
Your behavior is far more eloquent than your denial.
Historical Darwinism of the 19th and early 20th century.
In terms of racism, conflating the two is not a rational idea.

Barbarian observes:
references to “Sacred Darwin” and the like are obviously hysterical exaggerations. If you don’t, perhaps that’s a clue for you.
Your clue should have been you are treating Darwinism as a Sacred doctrine that cannot be questioned.
Nonsense. I pointed out that Darwin was wrong about various things, and you may have noted that I’ve observed his theory has been repeatedly modified as evidence showed flaws in it.
Whenever someone does, you have a history of going personal.
See above. Your behavior has been pretty much to go personal whenever the facts start to pile up against you.

Barbarian chuckles:
Perhaps you don’t know that “Tu Quoque” means. Almost all Europeans, Darwinist or not were racists in Darwin’s day. But as the cases of Watson and Morris show, that’s not how it is today.
I know very well what it means. Whenever there is an objection to the behavior of Darwinists, you bring up Creationist sins, and seek to imply that Creationism is the cause of these acts
I have? Where did I say it was the cause of racism? The truth matters. It should matter to you.
 
The difference between Darwinists holding racist views and Christians holding racist views is that racist Christians are holding a view contrary to the Scripture (Neither free nor slave, Jew nor Greek anyone?),
Notice that eugenists and the Nazis were holding views contrary to Darwinism. So there’s no difference. Moreover, the scripture you tossed off is not about race at all.
Racists could point to the teachings of Darwin to justify them.
In the US, racists could point to scripture to justify it. You seem unwilling to admit that. The fact that creationism is most popular precisely where racism has historically been most entrenched is a clue for you.
But who cares? Darwin was not inerrant. Scientists need not feel ashamed that the early Darwinists held to Eugenics
You’re still in denial about Darwin’s rejection of eugenic ideas?
You posted it. Surely you read it?

Why not just admit that Darwin rejected eugenic ideas, and his later followers demonstrated that they were scientifically unsound? The Nazis followed Luther, not Darwin.
 
Why not just admit that Darwin rejected eugenic ideas, and his later followers demonstrated that they were scientifically unsound? The Nazis followed Luther, not Darwin.
The guy was explicit about his source for his injection of a ‘cause’ into the evolutionary framework that had already existed through the works of Smith and Steno,and it does lead to the gas chambers of Auschwitz and national slavery.

Even a brief summary of the trajectory of Malthus through Darwin to the Nazis is fairly straightforward and a reader who does not come away with a direct observation of why Darwin’s injection of ‘cause’ is unscientific then I do not think any other documents brought forward could highlight it more. -

Here is Darwin’s ‘eureka’ moment -

“One day something brought to my recollection Malthus’s “Principles of Population,” which I had read about twelve years before. I thought of his clear exposition of “the positive checks to increase”—disease, accidents, war, and famine—which keep down the population of savage races to so much lower an average than that of civilized peoples. It then occurred to me that these causes or their equivalents are continually acting in the case of animals also… because in every generation the inferior would inevitably be killed off and the
superior would remain—that is, the fittest would survive.… The more I thought over it the more I became convinced that I had at length found the long-sought-for law of nature that solved the problem of the origin of species.” Charles Darwin

Here is his nationalistic supremacy source -

“Till at length the whole territory, from the confines of China to the shores of the Baltic, was peopled by a various race of Barbarians, brave, robust, and enterprising, inured to hardship, and delighting in war. Some tribes maintained their independence. Others ranged themselves under the standard of some barbaric chieftain who led them to victory after victory, and what was of more importance, to regions abounding in corn, wine, and oil, the long wished for consummation, and great reward of their labours. An Alaric, an Attila, or a Zingis Khan, and the chiefs around them, might fight for glory, for the fame of extensive conquests, but the true cause that set in motion the great tide of northern emigration, and that continued to propel it till it rolled at different periods against China, Persia, italy, and even Egypt, was a scarcity of food, a population extended beyond the means of supporting it.” Thomas Malthus

Here,in the same vein is somebody who put national surpremacy based on the same reasoning into practice -

“Without consideration of traditions and prejudices, Germany must find the courage to gather our people and their strength for an advance along the road that will lead this people from its present restricted living space to new land and soil, and hence also free it from the danger of vanishing from the earth or of serving others as a slave nation. The National Socialist Movement must strive to eliminate the disproportion between our population and our area—viewing this latter as a source of food as well as a basis for power politics—between our historical past and the hopelessness of our present impotence” Adolf Hitler

The trajectory of Malthus’s view (he is not promoting supremacy but just commenting on it as an opinion) is identical to national socialism but in reality it does not lead to survival of the fittest or a great nation but to its slavery and to the gas chambers.

This German Pope has a real chance to atone for his nation and show Christians what their real scientific heritage is and that what is now called ‘science’ is really empiricism,a detestable Arian cult that was fought by all Christians with Spirit in their hearts .
 
Barbarian,

I find your attempts to deny the role of Darwin and those he inspired within Eugenics to be ludicrous. Read The Descent of Man. Darwin in fact endorses some of Galton’s ideas (I believe on page 167 of the source I used).

You go through all this effort to rebut minutiae (and yes I do know what tu quoque is, and you commit the fallacy every time you come up with a Luther reference, a “creationist” reference or any other whenever someone brings up the problems of Eugenics and Darwinism) and ignore the main points I seek to raise.

Note I did not say Darwin endorsed Hitler. Indeed Darwin seemed to think Christian ethics required that we not do the pragmatic thing. Hitler however lacked those ethics that kept Darwin from advocating these things.

However, the ideas of the savages weeding out the weak by their harsh conditions (The Descent of Man, page 168) was certainly a theme Hitler adopted in an extreme sense, and other Eugenicists adopted milder versions.

I find it most amusing that you seem to think I am a Creationist because I dare to question you on Eugenics and Darwin, which only affirms the Dogmatic view you seem to hold.

For me it is perfectly acceptable to recognize that Darwin and others had faulty racial prejudices that caused them to make errors in this area. I recognize that later scientists repudiated this.

However, given your tendency to insult and to distort what I say in your responses, I see no more reason to take part in this thread. Dialogue requires both people to listen and consider what the other says, and in this case you will have no other consideration than to demand I accept what you say without question.

Really, how can I label it anything but “Sacred Darwinism” and “Dogmatic”?
 
Barbarian,

I find your attempts to deny the role of Darwin and those he inspired within Eugenics to be ludicrous. Read The Descent of Man. Darwin in fact endorses some of Galton’s ideas (I believe on page 167 of the source I used).

You go through all this effort to rebut minutiae (and yes I do know what tu quoque is, and you commit the fallacy every time you come up with a Luther reference, a “creationist” reference or any other whenever someone brings up the problems of Eugenics and Darwinism) and ignore the main points I seek to raise.

Note I did not say Darwin endorsed Hitler. Indeed Darwin seemed to think Christian ethics required that we not do the pragmatic thing. Hitler however lacked those ethics that kept Darwin from advocating these things.

However, the ideas of the savages weeding out the weak by their harsh conditions (The Descent of Man, page 168) was certainly a theme Hitler adopted in an extreme sense, and other Eugenicists adopted milder versions.

I find it most amusing that you seem to think I am a Creationist because I dare to question you on Eugenics and Darwin, which only affirms the Dogmatic view you seem to hold.

For me it is perfectly acceptable to recognize that Darwin and others had faulty racial prejudices that caused them to make errors in this area. I recognize that later scientists repudiated this.

However, given your tendency to insult and to distort what I say in your responses, I see no more reason to take part in this thread. Dialogue requires both people to listen and consider what the other says, and in this case you will have no other consideration than to demand I accept what you say without question.

Really, how can I label it anything but “Sacred Darwinism” and “Dogmatic”?
Darwin was not a supporter of eugenics. Do you believe that he was?
 
Darwin was not a supporter of eugenics. Do you believe that he was?
All that is happening here is that you are arguing at the level of national supremacy which runs through the empirical ‘cause’ for evolution,Harping on about what Darwin was or was not is irrelevant to the central issue in that his adoption of the quasi-political essay by Malthus for biological evolution is not bad science but anti-scientific within the existing framework of evolution at the time and it has not changed one iota.
 
All that is happening here is that you are arguing at the level of national supremacy which runs through the empirical ‘cause’ for evolution,Harping on about what Darwin was or was not is irrelevant to the central issue in that his adoption of the quasi-political essay by Malthus for biological evolution is not bad science but anti-scientific within the existing framework of evolution at the time and it has not changed one iota.
I have no idea what that means.

I do know that Charles Darwin was not a supporter of eugenics. You can look it up.
 
I have no idea what that means.

I do know that Charles Darwin was not a supporter of eugenics. You can look it up.
,“the whole world groaned and marvelled to find itself Arian”
St. Jerome

newadvent.org/cathen/01707c.htm

This is not the first time this happened and I would like to say it would be spectacular in its cunningness if it were not so dangerous.The most visible fact is that the valuable facet of scientific investigation within Christianity has shifted to a plausible platform commonly known as science vs religion.The way this happened is incredible by the hijacking of the insights of the great Christian astronomers and the reduction of astronomy to the ‘scientific method’ as it is now known,a device which Darwin used to inject a ‘cause’ into evolution.

The problem with the intelligent design people is that they still play within the rules of empiricism,the problem with the Church is that it just does not have the people to spot the Arian strain within its ranks and deal with the matter effectively.
 
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