Evolution! Did we come from monkeys?

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monkeys…i can’t help but laugh…LOL…LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL…maybe thats why i’m banana’s…LOL.hehhehehehehhe…well…okay…i’ll get serious…“let us make man in our own image and likeness”…LOL…if god is a monkey…then…we’re in trouble…

Ceasar
 
The roots of evolutionist thought go back as far as antiquity as a dogmatic belief attempting to deny the fact of creation. Most of the pagan philosophers in ancient Greece defended the idea of evolution. When we take a look at the history of philosophy we see that the idea of evolution constitutes the backbone of many pagan philosophies.

However, it is not this ancient pagan philosophy, but faith in God which has played a stimulating role in the birth and development of modern science. Most of the people who pioneered modern science believed in the existence of God; and while studying science, they sought to discover the universe God has created and to perceive His laws and the details in His creation. Astronomers such as Copernicus, Keppler, and Galileo; the father of paleontology, Cuvier; the pioneer of botany and zoology, Linnaeus; and Isaac Newton, who is referred to as the “greatest scientist who ever lived”, all studied science believing not only in the existence of God but also that the whole universe came into being as a result of His creation. Albert Einstein, considered to be the greatest genius of our age, was another devout scientist who believed in God and stated thus; “I cannot conceive of a genuine scientist without that profound faith. The situation may be expressed by an image: science without religion is lame.”

One of the founders of modern physics, German physician Max Planck said: “Anybody who has been seriously engaged in scientific work of any kind realizes that over the entrance to the gates of the temple of science are written the words: Ye must have faith. It is a quality which the scientist cannot dispense with.”

The theory of evolution is the outcome of the materialist philosophy that surfaced with the reawakening of ancient materialistic philosophies and became widespread in the 19th century. As we have indicated before, materialism seeks to explain nature through purely material factors. Since it denies creation right from the start, it asserts that every thing, whether animate or inanimate, has appeared without an act of creation but rather as a result of a coincidence that then acquired a condition of order. The human mind however is so structured as to comprehend the existence of an organising will wherever it sees order. Materialistic philosophy, which is contrary to this very basic characteristic of the human mind, produced “the theory of evolution” in the middle of the 19th century.
 
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lahokamal:
The roots of evolutionist thought go back as far as antiquity as a dogmatic belief attempting to deny the fact of creation. Most of the pagan philosophers in ancient Greece defended the idea of evolution. When we take a look at the history of philosophy we see that the idea of evolution constitutes the backbone of many pagan philosophies.
Really? Any citings? The Greeks had their own creation stories…Prometheus forming man out of clay.
Are you referring to Atomism? IIRC if it spoke to the existence of basic building blocks in nature and of the existence of elements but I don’t think it explicitly addressed the origin of species.

The atomist were a small number of philosophers and were opposed by the likes of Plato
Who said
Is the world created or uncreated? — that is the first question.
Created, I reply, being visible and tangible and having a body, and therefore sensible; and if sensible, then created; and if created, made by a cause, and the cause is the ineffable father of all things, who had before him an eternal archetype.


answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=53lq05hl5354i?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Atomism&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc03b
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lahokamal:
However, it is not this ancient pagan philosophy, but faith in God which has played a stimulating role in the birth and development of modern science. Most of the people who pioneered modern science believed in the existence of God; and while studying science, they sought to discover the universe God has created and to perceive His laws and the details in His creation.
I’m not sure what your point is. Are you surprised that people share the values of the culture that they were born into? Why would someone’s personal beliefs be any indicator of the quality of their scientific work?
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lahokamal:
The theory of evolution is the outcome of the materialist philosophy that surfaced with the reawakening of ancient materialistic philosophies and became widespread in the 19th century.
Atomism was revised in the 17th century
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lahokamal:
As we have indicated before, materialism seeks to explain nature through purely material factors.
that is all science can do since non-material things can’t be measured or quantified
no one has claimed anything else
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lahokamal:
Since it denies creation right from the start,
Any reference?

lahokamal said:
…… The human mind however is so structured as to comprehend the existence of an organising will wherever it sees order.

Any reference?
While it is true that most human cultures have developed philosophical/religious beliefs not all of them call out for a creator god. In fact Buddhism doesn’t even explicitly require gods at all.

Don’t make the mistake that the culture you were raised in is somehow natural or obvious to everyone else.

I’m reminded of the tale of the king who thought that French was the natural language and gave orders for a child to be raised in silence to prove that he would spontaneously speak French.

IIRC the human mind likes to impose patterns and order on what it sees rather than seeing what is realy there. This is the basis for cognitive optical illusions.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optical_illusions
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lahokamal:
Materialistic philosophy, which is contrary to this very basic characteristic of the human mind, produced “the theory of evolution” in the middle of the 19th century.
I don’t mean to be rude but I’m not sure what your point is

You started this thread with a blanket statement. There followed many replies challenging that statement to which you’ve never replied.

Now you come back with a new blanket statement. Do you want to have a discussion or do you want to type and run?
 
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ceasar:
monkeys…i can’t help but laugh…LOL…LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL…maybe thats why i’m banana’s…LOL.hehhehehehehhe…well…okay…i’ll get serious…“let us make man in our own image and likeness”…LOL…if god is a monkey…then…we’re in trouble…
Seriously, though, what does it mean to be the image and likeness of God? I mean, God’s not male of female, and I doubt he’s got a white beard or anything like that…Is there another sense in which this is meant? Or, I suppose put another way, what is it that is the essence of humanity, that which marks us as being in God’s likeness? I was thinking of this in relation to human evolution - in the past, there must have been a point at which we became “human,” and not just biologically. I think that question ties into the image and likeness question.
 
Steve Andersen:
Like I said I’m not a biologist but as far as I know Downs is not related to a specific set of genes…it is something that can occur in any pregnancy.
Without it being related to a gene how can it be selected against?
And I don’t know where the malfunction that causes Downs occurs. If it is an otherwise useful feature it would probably be very difficult to “weed out”
Im not a scientist either, but Downs syndrome is a genetic disease produced by a chromosomal defect(addition of chromosome) in the 21st of the 23 normal pairs of human chromosomes (which is properly termed Trisomy 21). It occurs more frequently with older mothers. Its inheritance pattern, which is more relevant to the discussion, is sporadic approximately 95% of the time - so it doesn’t get “passed on” like other genetic disorders. The disease isn’t thought of as producing a benefit, such as the one discussed for sickle cell, so the comparisons are lacking. It seems to me to be a natural selection paradox in that the disease, which limits the likelihood of reproduction of those afflicted, would be most prevalent in the offspring of some of the most successful mothers - those which continue reproducing until later in their lives. Therefore we can expect that it will be a persistent entity (apart from medical intervention) without ever being significantly prevalent.
Steve Andersen:
Take for example the eye. In all vertebrates the eye is fed by blood vessels that are IN FRONT of the retina. This creates those little spots we all see.
No it doesn’t. They are produced by actual particles floating within our eyes which cast shadows on the retina which, in turn, are processed by our brains to be interpreted as “spots” located somewhere in front of us. The blood vessels in our eyes don’t move - the spots you see do move - they are “floating” in the clear liquid which fills most of your eye…
Steve Andersen:
It is not detrimental but it is not perfect.
You would think that a thought out and planned design would have perfect structure
This is not a scientific conclusion.
You have now crossed from biological science into the broader realm of philosophy - good job! It’s very important to recognize such boundaries. In actuality it is precisely because you are human that you can even contemplate such a concept as “perfection”. Is it derived from “natural” experience? Can you point it out to me? No, you can’t. You have extrapolated a concept which does not exist in nature. Rather than opposing the concept of “intelligent design” this argues for the “supernatural” component of the human race in my opinion. Call the entity responsible for this component what you will - most use the name God.

Phil
 
Philip P:
Hi other Phil P!
Im also a Phil P! Are you guys scarred from the childhood abuse of having the initials “PP”? Maybe we could form a support group…

Phil P
 
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Philthy:
Im not a scientist either, but Downs syndrome is a genetic disease produced by…
Yes, I know. My brother is a Downsie.
What I don’t understand is the underlying malfunction that causes the extra genetic material to be produced in the first place.

Once again, I’m not a scientists but since it occurs very early in the gestation period I would think that it is a flaw in a very basic, i.e. evolutionarily very old, mechanism.

My thinking is that very old, basic, characteristics like gene copying, lateral symmetry, or tube-in-tube digestive system are too much a part of the basic design to be weeded out at this point in the evolutionary process.

Philthy said:
… Its inheritance pattern, which is more relevant to the discussion, is sporadic approximately 95% of the time - so it doesn’t get “passed on” like other genetic disorders.

Ok, work with me here, I can be a little slow sometimes. What/whose inheritance are you talking about here? Are you saying that people with Downs only have Downs children 95% of the time or are you saying that there is a gene in the mothers that has been identified with the occurrence of Downs but that is only passed on 95%. :confused:

And how can a gene be passed on 95% of the time? Wouldn’t it be 50%?
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Philthy:
The disease isn’t thought of as producing a benefit, such as the one discussed for sickle cell, so the comparisons are lacking.
I didn’t bring up Downs just for that reason.
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Philthy:
It seems to me to be a natural selection paradox in that the disease, which limits the likelihood of reproduction of those afflicted, would be most prevalent in the offspring of some of the most successful mothers - those which continue reproducing until later in their lives. Therefore we can expect that it will be a persistent entity (apart from medical intervention) without ever being significantly prevalent.
That sounds plausible.
I also like to think that in our “natural” state (small bands of hunter gathers) there is a physical limit to how many humans can be supported in a given area so that once a woman is old enough for her children to have had children she has pretty much done her duty to the gene pool. A process that would create too many mouths to feed by having multiple generations of child bearers could be a problem. So the evolutionary pressure is there both to have the woman produce as many surviving children as possible and not to have those children compete with her own grand children for limited resources.

I don’t know.

I’ve read some articles that suggest that menopause was an adaptation to allow a woman to ensure teh survival of her genes by supporting her existing children and grand children. This makes sense on a certain level. Having help passing on your genes has to have better probabilites then just trying to do it yourself

Since it is relatively recent that a sizeable part of the population survies past their 40s I don’t know if that theory holds water

Philthy said:
]
No it doesn’t. They are produced by actual particles floating within our eyes which cast shadows on the retina …

Ooops I meant the nerves are on the front of the retina :o
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Philthy:
This is not a scientific conclusion.
How so?

One of the strongest arguments for evolution is the persistence of traits across species and across time which clearly links them together. This has produced modern species that have built upon existing characteristics and have the jury-rigged appearance that you would expect.

If a species was “designed” from the ground up you would think it wouldn’t include residual features from predecessors.
This isn’t mine but it is one of my favorite examples
Because mammals evolved from the Devonian lungfish (Osteolepiformes) which swallowed air to breathe, we have inherited a respiratory system in which we use the same tube to breathe and swallow. A piece of food lodged in this double-duty windpipe can cause death! In real life engineering, the duplication of a dangerous design flaw from a previous design is considered an example of serious incompetence.

Philthy said:
……In actuality it is precisely because you are human that you can even contemplate such a concept as “perfection”. Is it derived from “natural” experience? Can you point it out to me? No, you can’t.

Yes I can. I’m an engineer. I do design for a living (whether they are intelligent or not is still a matter of speculation amongst my clients….but that is another story) 😉

If you want to accomplish a certain goal it is not too difficult to come up with an optimal design. In the real world however, we are often building on top on an existing design and we wind up doing something that is not “perfect” i.e. not what you would do if you could have started with a clean piece of paper, but the best we can do given the circumstances
 
Two things:

ONE: The Theory of Evolution states that man and apes evolved from a common ancestor. When you phrase the question as “Did we come from Monkeys?” you just make yourself look uneducated. Kind of like when Anti-Catholics demand to know “Why do you worship Mary?”.

TWO: Creationism or I.D. is NOT a scientific theory. For a theory to be scientific it must be falsifiable. When you put god into the theory, it becomes unfalsifiable. Why? Because you can not physicaly prove the non-existance of anything, that is, show physical evidence that something does not exist.
 
Monarchy said:
TWO: Creationism or I.D. is NOT a scientific theory. For a theory to be scientific it must be falsifiable.

or so says popper, at least…

ironic, then, that popper himself at times declared the theory of evolution to be unfalsifiable.
 
Okay- this is a cut and past from an email I just wrote to someone asking about old-earth evidence versus Biblical Genesis evidence.

See what you guys think:​

I hold the standard, Biblical model of a 6000 to 6500 year old earth.

The old earth model (millions of years) is based on the currently accepted “rock-strata layers indicate time.” However, the actual scientific evidence within those layers do not support that claim.

Go to your nearest open earth stripmine, or anywhere where you can see that rock strata lineation. Notice how uniform they are- and perfectly straight to the eye.

What do we not see between layers after the first layer (the top layer)? Yep- no erosion. Erosion would indicate that the layer in question was exposed at one time (indicating the truth of the proposed scientific model)

…yet, we don’t see that.

Also- look at that strata. What else do you notice? You see sedimentary lineation that also is consistent with specific gravity striation that occurs in a watery solution.

(Or- in shorthand- the “Viniagrette Bottle Effect”- where specific gravity places elements in a solution and settles them according to weight/density)

The layers we see were formed in a saturated, flood environment, and were laid down over a very short period of time in the after effects of a global, catastrophic flood.

(Which I would contend was the “Noah Flood”.)

Go to your local museum- and what is T-rex always found in? Buried in sandstone. Fossil formation- where the extreme pressure actually squeezes the minerals out of bone and forces in sedimentary material through immense pressure- is hard to duplicate. Scientists say it takes about 15- to 20 feet of depth of large scale sedimentary WET matter on top of given bone to cause this effect.

Then factor in huge a creature like T-rex is.

That’s a MONSTER flood. Beyond an imagineable scale.

Now look at what happened in Southeast Asia last Christmas? Despite the severity of the even- no fossils were seen to have formed (the flood receded quickly, and wasn’t even deep enough- or carrying enough sediment to cause buried matter to '“fossilize”)

Look at the giant- 10,000 mile plus long fissures in the earth where the tectonic plates meet in both the Atlantic Ocean and the Pacific.

Because of the size of the plates involved, the large scale rupturing of the one in the atlantic would predicate a reaction in the pacific fissure. These are unimagineable fiissures- huge gashes in the face of the earth. Could you imagine when that happened? If a moderate earthquake hammered Indonesia with a tsunami, can you imaging these two big boys going off in tandem?

To witness such an event would be to re-define the very richter scale- if 8 or 9 would be considered a “big earthquake” - whatever caused these two monsters would have been estimated at many, many times that.

And we also know something else about these enormous fissures- something we owe to cold-war sub-hunts. Imaging of the ocean floor shows very little erosion of these fissures- and no sand on them.

When they went- they pushed everything away from them- including the sand (which would have been picked up at an unimagineable rate with the ensuing collossal tsunamis.)

…and the dinosaurs were universally buried in billions of tons of wet sand…

Of course- scripture doesn’t disagree with this evidence at all. But science so wants to disprove the existence of God, and call it all “chance”.

Did you know where we are seeing the most Christian conversion among scientists? Its in the field of genetics. It was quite a powerful witness to many of them to date the human genome at between 6000 to 6500 years, and the mitochondrial DNA showed all from “mother zero” .

The Bible names “mother zero”. We call her Eve. The mitochondrial DNA trace through genetics also showed that “mother zero” was as human as we are today.

(So a 100% human mother from which the whole race shows lineage… -estimated years ago- 6000 to 6500 WOW!)
 
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ScottH:
Okay- this is a cut and past from an email I just wrote to someone asking about old-earth evidence versus Biblical Genesis evidence.

See what you guys think:​

Ok, I’m a little slow today. This is a parody, right?

Peace

Tim
 
No, we did not come from monkeys. We came from early hominids, who came from …, who came from …, who came from amoeaba. JPII declared way back when that evolutiion was not incompatible with Scripture. Get over it. All we are required to take on faith is that Adam and Eve were the first humans, that all humans came from them (which mitochondrial DNA supports), and that we really did fall from Grace - resulting in original sin.
 
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ScottH:
Okay- this is a cut and past from an email I just wrote to someone asking about old-earth evidence versus Biblical Genesis evidence.

See what you guys think:
Not to be uncharitable but I think “Get ye to a textbook”!

These tired old arguments have been refuted many times
try here for a start

ScottH said:
……… However, the actual scientific evidence within those layers do not support that claim.

Oy!
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ScottH:
Go to your nearest open earth stripmine, or anywhere where you can see that rock strata lineation. Notice how uniform they are- and perfectly straight to the eye.

What do we not see between layers after the first layer (the top layer)? Yep- no erosion. Erosion would indicate that the layer in question was exposed at one time …
Why would they have to be exposed at one time?
Why couldn’t they be ocean floor or lake deposits? The earth is mostly covered with water

And no, that doesn’t support a global flood
Not enough time in 40 days to lay down that volume of material
Sedimentary deposits don’t solidify in that time frame either

If you have ever studied geologic strata you will see there is plenty of evidence of erosion in materials that have been exposed and later recovered. A few years ago I worked with some seismic shots through glacial till and I could see ancient stream beds scores of feet below the surface….pretty cool actualy

ScottH said:
……Go to your local museum- and what is T-rex always found in? Buried in sandstone.

No. Fossils are found in many types of Sedimentary rocks as well as in some metamorphic rocks…not just sandstone
and no this isn’t evidence of a flood either
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ScottH:
Fossil formation- where the extreme pressure actually squeezes the minerals out of bone and forces in sedimentary material through immense pressure
Oh so that’s how they are formed 😉

There are actually several ways to form a fossil
fossil formation

ScottH said:
- is hard to duplicate.

It is relatively rare but the processes are quite simple
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ScottH:
Scientists say it takes about 15- to 20 feet of depth of large scale sedimentary WET matter on top of given bone to cause this effect.
A quick burial in a wet anaerobic environment would be ideal but other materials like ash work as well and the burial can be slow.

ScottH said:
…Now look at what happened in Southeast Asia last Christmas? Despite the severity of the even- no fossils were seen to have formed

Do you seriously think fossils are formed in a few months?

Besides there are humans digging up the deposited materials and trying to recover bodies but even without that, how do you know that one of the missing bodies isn’t buried under a layer of debris in the bottom of a bay and will wind up in someone’s museum in the year 3205?

ScottH said:
-……Because of the size of the plates involved, the large scale rupturing of the one in the atlantic would predicate a reaction in the pacific fissure.

Really? So now plate tectonics (which is prime evidence against a young earth) is the cause of the flood. That is actually a new one on me

ScottH said:
….And we also know something else about these enormous fissures- something we owe to cold-war sub-hunts. Imaging of the ocean floor shows very little erosion of these fissures- and no sand on them.

(1) No sediment on the ocean bottom? Any citings
(2) The mid ocean ridges are geologically new and wouldn’t have been eroded
(3) Weathering usually occurs in the atmosphere

ScottH said:
….and the dinosaurs were universally buried in billions of tons of wet sand…

All at the same time and yet they are still sorted in time order?
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ScottH:
……But science so wants to disprove the existence of God….
Science wants no such thing
It can only deal with the natural and so makes no pronouncements on God at all

ScottH said:
…….The Bible names “mother zero”. We call her Eve. The mitochondrial DNA trace through genetics also showed that “mother zero” was as human as we are today. ….

No that is not what mitochondrial Eve is. She is the most-recent common ancestor of all humans alive on Earth today with respect to matrilineal descent. For example you fathers’ grand mother is an older more distant common ancestor of you and your siblings than your mother’s mother but since you’re not descended from her through the matrilineal line you and your siblings will not have her mitochondria.

who is M. Eve
 
Steve Andersen:
And no, that doesn’t support a global flood
Not enough time in 40 days to lay down that volume of material
Sedimentary deposits don’t solidify in that time frame either
40 days is enough time to lay down that volume of material. And God definitely could lay it down supernaturally if He so desired.
 
Steve Andersen:
Not to be uncharitable but I think “Get ye to a textbook”!

These tired old arguments have been refuted many times
try here for a start
LOL- “get ye to a texbook”- Funny. Those same publishers are also saying in other texbooks that the crusades were an evil excercise of zealous Christians led by an evil Pope (Urban II) who encouraged the Christian world to attack peaceful Muslims…

…who incidentally invaded Spain, though that is curiously left out.

Anyway- I digress.

I don’t dispute plate tectonics- but the speed that it occurred is ASSUMED to be a constant. Read the study by John Baumgartner during his days at Los Alamos on this topic. I’ve got news for you- depending on the sheer severity of a given tectonic shift- or multiple shifts acting as a catalyst upon each other- the earth could flood due to Tsunamis.

Also- you mention fossilized creatures being found in a certain death order… oh- you mean like the coelocanth?- the old index fossil dated before the dinosaurs- thereby all creatures found near his “level” were assumed to have died in the pre Jurrassic? (A fish that showed limbl like, odd apendages that many believed to be early “arms” for leaving the water")

…imagine the scientific shock to find them alive in the seas of Southeast Asia… and still with those same odd fins- used solely for in-water locomotion to hover in water.

(There’s a big oops. I know the carnegie museum of natural history has since relegated their specimen to the unseen basement of their museum as apposed to admitting their display error- claiming it proof of evolution.)

Also- your other contention- 99.99% of dino bones are found buried in sandstone. And we just see so many catastrophic floods creating sandstone burial today? Look at the Hell Creek formation up against the rockies- THOUSANDS of dinosaurs smashed against the rockies, buried in sandstone. Thats not some local, torrential downpour. Thats not even possible by Dec 26th 2004 standards during the tsunami.

And it wasn’t ash they were buried in.

Pretty big flood eh? Yep- and I contend that it was one unequaled in Earth’s history (and so does another book with far more authority than little-ol’ me.)

Here’s what one scholar- Daniel C. Dennett- says at the end of his diatribe on Mithochondrial Eve- after a LONG refutation of how it doesn’t point to Biblical innerrencies.

"A final note. The techniques of DNA sequencing, DNA-relatedness comparisons, and the calibration of the molecular clock have been improving dramatically over the past few years. The existence of the Mitochondrial Eve and the Y-chromosome Adam are no longer in any doubt (remember, both are mathematical necessities)—what is still being discussed is the estimation of how long ago they lived. Determining their ages requires an accurate calibration of the molecular clock and there is some disagreement here."

Translation- “We may not know what we are talking about- but I have faith the Biblical Christians know even less… but there may be disagreements here with my calibration.”-

…uh… speaking of wet sand…

Furthermore- Go “slow burial” a chicken bone in the back yard. In two years, let me know if anything is even left, let alone a fossil. The “slow burial” fossil creation theory is totally dependent on the shaky “millions of years” faith in reading the rock strata message correctly. Its an assumption because if the millions of years theory is true, then slow burial fossil creation would also be true.

…kinda like assuming the age of other extinct creatures to that of the “index fossil” extinct coelocanth…

…which is still swimming, incidentally.

Science as it is today is a faith. And never mind the Big Bang theory - which discounts the supernatural- breaks their own laws of physics…

“Hmm…so NOTHING exploded into a HUGE something…?”

(So science can break its own self-made rules if it benefits “science”…)

D’oh!
Houston, we have a problem.
 
But- this is all predicted by Paul…

1 Corinthians:
18 For the word of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us who are saved it is the power of God.

19 For it is written,*** I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, And the discernment of the discerning will I bring to nought.***

20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? **hath not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? **

21 For seeing that in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom knew not God, it was God’s good pleasure through the foolishness of the preaching to save them that believe.

22 Seeing that Jews ask for signs, and Greeks seek after wisdom:

23 but we preach Christ crucified, unto Jews a stumblingblock, and unto Gentiles foolishness;

24 but unto them that are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

26 For behold your calling, brethren, that not many wise after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: 27** but God chose the foolish things of the world, that he might put to shame them that are wise; and God chose the weak things of the world, that he might put to shame the things that are strong; **
 
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buffalo:
… And God definitely could lay it down supernaturally if He so desired.
Of course He could But He went through an awful lot of trouble to make the earth look exactly as if the sediments were laid down over billions of years so we better believe that if we know what’s good for us. 😉
 
buffalo said:
40 days is enough time to lay down that volume of material.

Where did the sediment come from? How are shales, sandstones and limestones laid down in alternating deposits during a flood? In fact, how are limestones and shales deposited in a flood?
And God definitely could lay it down supernaturally if He so desired.
Good ol’ God the Trickster!

Peace

Tim
 
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