Evolution/Genesis

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re: papal statements about evolution and Catholicism

The Church and the papacy are not going to make any statement regarding the accuracy of any theory of origins. Infallibility doesn’t cover such matters.
Not all statements made by the Church or the Pope are infallible. However, the statements regarding the meaning of scripture carries much weight. That being said, why does the Church, which clearly is familiar with Gen 1 and 2, allow Catholics to accept an old earth/universe and evolution?

Peace

Tim
 
Nothing that I see. But as you said, the Bible is not a science book.

Let me ask you this question - if the Holy Spirit didn’t indicate a slow creation, why would the Church, which is guided by the Holy Spirit, allow Catholics to accept the idea that the earth/universe are old and that evolution happens? That is truly your O.

Peace

Tim
Or why did the Holy Spirit allow it to be constant Catholic teaching until only recently?
 
Perhaps that is when the Holy Spirit revealed science to the Church!😉

Peace

Tim
You are on of the guys who use the God can’t deceive argument. So He willfully deceived us all these years? Why? Because we couldn’t understand? He couldn’t transmit the truth without confusion?

Remember, once a dogma it cannot be reversed and never has.
 
You are on of the guys who use the God can’t deceive argument. So He willfully deceived us all these years? Why? Because we couldn’t understand? He couldn’t transmit the truth without confusion?

Remember, once a dogma it cannot be reversed and never has.
Perhaps you need to take that up with the Church. Either you are right or the Church is right.

Why do you think the Church allows us to accept an old earth/universe and evolution if it is opposed to dogma?

Peace

Tim
 
Perhaps you need to take that up with the Church. Either you are right or the Church is right.

Why do you think the Church allows us to accept an old earth/universe and evolution if it is opposed to dogma?

Peace

Tim
We have tangled for several years over the dogmatic points.

I have not made them up and you know it. It is not my opinion.

The Church documents show that the origin of man is special.
 
We have tangled for several years over the dogmatic points.

I have not made them up and you know it. It is not my opinion.

The Church documents show that the origin of man is special.
I am not accusing you of making them up, but how does that reconcile with the Church allowing us to accept the science? Is the Church wrong?

Peace

Tim
 
I am not accusing you of making them up, but how does that reconcile with the Church allowing us to accept the science? Is the Church wrong?

Peace

Tim
This indeed is a conundrum. How can we accept this:

Evolution and Eve coming from Adam. They both cannot be true.

So - is Revelation false? - or the current thinking of the Church wrong?
 
This indeed is a conundrum. How can we accept this:

Evolution and Eve coming from Adam. They both cannot be true.

So - is Revelation false? - or the current thinking of the Church wrong?
That is my question. Which do you think it is?

Peace

Tim
 
So the Church is in error?

Peace

Tim
I do not see the Church making the claims you and some others do. Everywhere I read the documents there is a sentence or paragraph that says the creation of man is special. The Church does not accept dualism. It is a heresey. The Catechism, the Cardinals, the Pope know we are all descended from a single pair.

I believe that scientism has infected the Church in some quarters which had added to the confusion. The Church seems to want to stay out of the science, but it cannot for there are some intersects that have to be addressed.
 
I do not see the Church making the claims you and some others do. Everywhere I read the documents there is a sentence or paragraph that says the creation of man is special. The Church does not accept dualism. It is a heresey. The Catechism, the Cardinals, the Pope know we are all descended from a single pair.

I believe that scientism has infected the Church in some quarters which had added to the confusion. The Church seems to want to stay out of the science, but it cannot for there are some intersects that have to be addressed.
The Church does not allow us to accept an old earth/universe? Evolution? I would ask that you provide the Church teaching that specifically states that Catholics may not accept evolution or the age of the earth/universe.

Peace

Tim
 
The Church does not allow us to accept an old earth/universe? Evolution? I would ask that you provide the Church teaching that specifically states that Catholics may not accept evolution or the age of the earth/universe.

Peace

Tim
I didn’t say anything with regard to the age of the universe. I never claimed that.

I have always argued about the creation of man. I am open to the truth. If the truth is it is old, it is old. If the truth it is young, it is young. I am not yet convinced we have enough of the puzzle to conclude without a doubt an age old universe or no flood. I do not see it the same way as you do.

God does not have to leave evidence in a fashion we expect. He is under no such obligation. Because we are limited by our 5 senses and dimensions we live in we see just a portion. It may be ain to walking on the beach. We see footprints left in the sand on the left side, but no right sided footprints. Why? The water washed the one set away. We concluded that a one footed man walked on the beach, because there is no evidence we can see of the other foot. Does this make God a deceiver? No.
 
I didn’t say anything with regard to the age of the universe. I never claimed that.
Well, that has been part of my question going back to the question I had for someone else that you replied to.
God does not have to leave evidence in a fashion we expect. He is under no such obligation. Because we are limited by our 5 senses and dimensions we live in we see just a portion. It may be ain to walking on the beach. We see footprints left in the sand on the left side, but no right sided footprints. Why? The water washed the one set away. We concluded that a one footed man walked on the beach, because there is no evidence we can see of the other foot. Does this make God a deceiver? No.
That is your position and I have know that for a long time, but it isn’t a definitive statement by the Church forbidding Catholics from accepting evolution. If evolution is contrary to dogma, how come the Church allows us to accept it?

Peace

Tim
 
This thread seemed interesting at the beginning but the conversation becoming a bit silly. I believe the thread began when someone made the assertion that one could not accept the Church’s teaching on the nature of man and evolution. This seems to be rooted in the “mistrust” that comes from those of a politically conservative orientation towards anything that the sciences say (i.e. evolution, global warming, ect.)
On the other hand, there are many who are dogmatic evolutionists. While evolution is an extremely palpable and often observable theory, it has its limitations, especially when explaining human nature. To anyone who is serious about understanding these limits, I would recommend reading, at least the first part of Hilary Putnam’s Renewing Philosophy,. What Putnam is interested in is how human intellegence (language, the ability to make inference, and reference). Is it possible to recreate these abilities by artificial intellegence? Putnam concludes that the answer is no to this question. He also concludes that evolution fails to explain human thinking because it is so distinct from anything else that can be observed in nature.
To tie this in with Genesis, we see that “man is created in the image of God.” Thus, it becomes obvious that there is something about mankind that has been singled out from the rest of the evolutionary-creation process. What is is important is that people move away from the either/or mentality of evolution and creation and adapt the both/and mentality.
 
Well, that has been part of my question going back to the question I had for someone else that you replied to.That is your position and I have know that for a long time, but it isn’t a definitive statement by the Church forbidding Catholics from accepting evolution. If evolution is contrary to dogma, how come the Church allows us to accept it?

Peace

Tim
My position can be backed by Tradition and the constant teaching of the church, otherwise it would have no foundation. (we would have nothing to discuss:))

The Church does forbid material evolution and natural transformism with regards to man.
 
The Church does forbid material evolution and natural transformism with regards to man.
Does the Church forbid the physical evolution of the human body that would be ensouled at some point in time?

Was Pope John Paul II in error when he said that, while there are several theories of evolution, the fact of the evolution of the human body from lower forms of life is “more than a hypothesis.”? Was he teaching something forbidden by dogma?

Peace

Tim
 
Does the Church forbid the physical evolution of the human body that would be ensouled at some point in time?

Was Pope John Paul II in error when he said that, while there are several theories of evolution, the fact of the evolution of the human body from lower forms of life is “more than a hypothesis.”? Was he teaching something forbidden by dogma?

Peace

Tim
That is dualism.
 
That is dualism.
Would that rise to the level of heresy? Should he have been censored for that statement? How about Pope Benedict XVI who clearly accepts at least some form of evolution?

Peace

Tim
 
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