Evolution In The Classroom

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’And it’s partly a ridiculous fight because of religion. The other side ****is because of science. Because the science is not where it should be.""
I still don’t see the problem. 🙂

Science was not where it should have been in the Dark Ages either. Science is a continuous process so advances in our scientific knowledge is not surprising.

I haven’t had a chance to read the entire interview with him and see if it rocks my world, but I intend to. It looks interesting. Thank you for sharing it!
 
I still don’t see the problem. 🙂

Science was not where it should have been in the Dark Ages either.
Well, you’re a newcomer to the discussions so you don’t realize what has been claimed by the die-hard Darwinists here for a long, long time.
I have heard some of the most ridiculous claims about evolutionary theory.
The statement I repeat is that Darwinian theory is “more certain than gravity”.

Then take a look at one of the world’s leading evolutionists, Stuart Newman, admits:

that big idea is coming up against a lot of entrenched belief within the scientific community that things happen in the Darwinian fashion

The Darwinian old-guard is “entrenched” – claiming that their failed ideas are “more certain than gravity”. Teaching their theory as if it is sound. I’ve heard some claim “there are no flaws in evolutionary theory”.

Now you naively say you “don’t see the problem”.

Well, you haven’t recognized the claims that evolutionists have made. To simply say that the dismissal of Darwinian theory is no problem for science is absurd. Think about the claims made in the name of Darwin. Think about the 100,000 scientists that StAnastasia talks about who still are “entrenched” in a stupid theory.

Buffalo asked some very good questions also. Will the evolutionary enterprise admit that he has been right to criticize and reject Darwinian claims of gradual modification by natural selection and mutations?

Then look at this:

Suzan Mazur: Your theory of form also describes an evolutionary spontaneity. **You say that all 35 or so animal phyla physically self-organized by the time of the Cambrian explosion **half a billion years ago using a pattern language – dynamical patterning modules (DPMs) – and that selection followed as a “stabilizer”. Is that correct?

Stuart Newman: Yes.

Incredible. Let’s hear it for those fossil hunters claiming that “someday” they’ll find the fossils of Cambrian ancestors. According to Stuart Newman, those fossils don’t exist because there were no ancestors – there were no transitionals.

His idea? The Cambrian animals “physically self-organized”. Hey, why not? They simply responded to the new evolutionary law of “sometimes things just create themselves”. That’s even better than Darwinism because its even more impossible to falsify. 🙂

To my mind, self-organization does represent a challenge to the Darwinian, i.e., the modern synthesis and the perceived understanding of evolutionary theory. Some people are concerned – though I don’t agree with them for being concerned about it – but people are concerned that if they open up the door to non-Darwinian mechanisms, then they’re going to allow the creationists to slip through the door as well.

Yes, that is a frightening prospect. By eliminating the Darwinian mechanism, the extended evolutionary synthesis removes any semblance of explanatory power of the theory also. Things just popped into existence – because that’s what they do. Again, why not? It’s not an explanation but an assertion.

Most importantly, to dismiss Darwinism in such a decisive manner makes it abundantly clear that Darwinian claims were made without factual evidence. They were speculations which can be changed, modified, refuted, reversed and dismissed at any time. It affects nothing. No “facts” are overturned. The same lack of facts creates the self-organization speculation as it does for Darwinian mechanisms.

The people you refer to – instead of moving beyond and expanding Darwin’s ideas to include things like self-organization and bringing other mechanisms into it – **adhere to this Darwinian orthodoxy **where everything has to be incremental. And when confronted with something very complex like the bacterial flagellum or the segmented vetebral column, they say that it had to have arisen in an incremental fashion.

But there are other mechanisms involving self-assembly and involving self-organization that could potentially explain these things as long as one did not seek purely incremental explanations. And physics and the theories of self-organization show us that those mechanisms exist. I think it’s an unfortunate error that some advocates of evolution are making by adhering so closely to this incrementalist Darwinian dogma.

Interesting words. Where have we heard Darwinism called an “orthodoxy” or a “dogma” before? Where have we heard the screams of horror when anyone pointed out that evolutionists adhered to their failed theory as if it was religious dogma?

Oh yeah – right here on CAF. Like, all the time.

Don’t worry, this interview is over a year old and we haven’t seen the Darwinian circus cancel a show yet. Their main clown is in the spotlight now, touting his “Greatest Show on Earth”.

Apparently, nothing can embarrass these types at all. Shortly after asserting that their theory is the greatest thing in the history of science, the theory is unravelled by one of their own (Newman is far from the only evolutionist who has problems with the theory) – and we’ll hear, “It’s no problem. Science always revises its views.”

“Ok, we were a bit mistaken before – but trust us now. We’ve REALLY got the explanation for life and the origin of human beings now – 100% certain. We promise!” 🙂
 
What I don’t understand, because I accept the fluid nature of scientific study, is why questioning one part of evolution discredits the whole theory.
Sure, why not. If I tell you something that has 10% of the truth and 90% of it is lie – why should what I say be discredited? I mean, after all, 10% of what I said was true. So, I changed my story a few times, made up new falsehoods, claimed things that were not true, insisted that the whole thing was utterly correct – and now we see that 90% was totally false. But come on – 10% is still true so please give me the honor and respect I deserve!

In any other field of study, it only takes one falsification to discredit an entire theory.
 
More reading on why chance is problematic:

We Have No Excuse
A Scientific Case for Relating Life to Mind


“We call these [mutation] events accidental; we say that they are random occurrences. And since they constitute the only possible source of modifications in the genetic text, itself the solerepository of the organism’s hereditary structures, it necessarily follows that chance alone is atthe source of every innovation, of all creation in the biosphere. (Jacques Monod)2

Many in science employ a dogma that life is related to matter, rather than to mind.
The dogma seems conceptually flawed. Unlike rocks, rivers, wind, rain and snow, life
operates on information - tightly integrated messages that function to order a grand symphony offuture events for clearly evident purposes. Lacking a mind, matter simply can’t comprehend or order future events for a purpose. Because purpose only derives from mind, logic seems to demand that life is related to mind rather than just to matter.
Lacking a mind, material causes have only two tools to work with: (1) physical and
chemical necessity flowing from the properties of matter, energy and the forces and (2) chance.

As implied by Monod’s statement, physical and chemical necessity are not tools used to order the symbol sequences that make life. Hence, the heavy lifting is left to chance by default.

The chance default is considered adequate because it is endowed with seemingly
gargantuan resources consisting of billions of years of time and countless opportunity. The purpose manifested by life is only “apparent” and not objectively real because chance can explain it. For the materialist, the purpose apparent in the messages of life is just an illusion, like the illusion of a rising sun in the morning.

This article explains why Monod is wrong and the claim of chance fails. It fails because
probability decreases exponentially at an accelerating rate as the complexity of a system increases only incrementally. Because of the phenomenal rate of reduction even billions and billions of years of time and opportunity are not adequate for chance to mimic the simplest functions of life.

more…
 
Sure, why not. If I tell you something that has 10% of the truth and 90% of it is lie – why should what I say be discredited? I mean, after all, 10% of what I said was true. So, I changed my story a few times, made up new falsehoods, claimed things that were not true, insisted that the whole thing was utterly correct – and now we see that 90% was totally false. But come on – 10% is still true so please give me the honor and respect I deserve!

In any other field of study, it only takes one falsification to discredit an entire theory.
This is one of the stupidest things I’ve ever read in my life, no exaggeration. I give up; you’re all right. Science is about tricking people. I’ve never come across a more ridiculous group of people in my life, and I want to extend my deepest sympathies and concerns for the people who have to deal with you on a daily basis. I can’t find a single part of what you’re saying that even resembles a reasonable understanding of reality. I’m honestly a little depressed that any human being has the ability to reason like this. Don’t even bother posting a response to me, I won’t be back to this website ever again.
 
I have heard some of the most ridiculous claims about evolutionary theory.
The statement I repeat is that Darwinian theory is “more certain than gravity”.
The statement is correct. Our current theory of gravity, Einstein’s General Relativity, is known to fail in conditions of large mass and very small scale: the middle of black holes and the very early universe. General Relativity does not take into account quantum effects, so when scales get down to the Planck length (1.6 e -35 m) GR fails because it omits quantum effects, which are important at that scale. Physicists are currently working on a more embracing theory of gravity called “Quantum Gravity”, which will include the effects of quantum mechanics. General Relativity will be included in Quantum Gravity, in the same way that Newtonian Gravity is included in General Relativity - both are special cases only applicable in a limited range of conditions.

There are no known cases where Evolution fails. There are cases where we are uncertain about how something evolved, but there are no known failures as there are with General Relativity.

Even on a purely numerical basis, the gravitational constant has been measured to about 8 decimal places of accuracy. Common Descent has been verified to 12 decimal places of accuracy.

On both counts evolution is indeed “more certain” than gravity.

rossum
 
“no known cases where evolution fails”? This appears to be a prediction about the future as well. As reggieM has pointed out, there are cases where drastic revisions are being proposed but a certain orthodoxy has set in built around a dogma. It does not appear that scientists know anything about evolution. It only appears that living things are being analyzed and classified and the same with DNA and DNA fragments from old dead things. The only thing scientists have to work with is the information they’ve been able to extract and note the differences and similarities. And, as has been demonstrated by this process, just because one organism looks like another, it does not mean they are closely related.

One poster here is constantly referring to biologists doing something with evolution. They are not. Drug discovery is trial and error. A database is built up that, it is hoped, will help shorten drug discovery based on previous attempts at dealing with a similar pathogen. What is actually being done in drug discovery is locating sites on the surface of say, a virus, and trying to block some necessary function or killing it outright. And drugs are being developed that chemically identify targets and kill them.

Peace,
Ed
 
Animal testing is based completely on the evolutionary assumption that certain key systems in creatures we share ancestry have not undergone any major shifts since we diverged- and despite what PETA may tell you, these tests are accurate. Obviously, experimentation has shown and we would assume that some systems have shifted.
 
Animal testing is based completely on the evolutionary assumption that certain key systems in creatures we share ancestry have not undergone any major shifts since we diverged- and despite what PETA may tell you, these tests are accurate. Obviously, experimentation has shown and we would assume that some systems have shifted.
We share ancestry with guinea pigs?

Peace,
Ed
 
Right, of course. I should have known.

I think a far better explanation is that all creatures with four limbs were designed to breathe the same atmosphere, have similar organs and live under one earth gravity.

Peace,
Ed
 
** Liberating biology from a Procrustean bed of dogma **

In a Commentary essay, Carl Woese and Nigel Goldenfeld provide an analysis of biological thought that differs profoundly from that presented by those celebrating the Bicentenary of Darwin’s birth and, incidentally, the recently published AP Biology Standards.
“This is the story of how biology of the 20th century neglected and otherwise mishandled the study of what is arguably the most important problem in all of science: the nature of the evolutionary process. This problem . . ] became the private domain of a quasi-scientific movement, who secreted it away in a morass of petty scholasticism, effectively disguising the fact that their primary concern with it was ideological, not scientific.”

The authors want to see biology liberated “from the Procrustean bed of dogma on which it has been cast for so long”. A radical overhaul is warranted. The issues are comparable to the “transformation of the physical sciences” in the early 20th Century. This is when the foundations of Newtonian mechanics were undermined and the certainties of that approach were replaced by relativity theory and the statistical uncertainties of quantum mechanics. Just as physics then had to accept that there was much more to learn, so also biology today.
“Although 2009 will be marked by a plethora of celebrations on the subject of evolution, most of the attention is being bestowed on the personalities and historical circumstances surrounding the theory of natural selection, as if this and its synthesis with genetics in the first decades of the 20th century marks the culmination of the theory of evolution. It does not. The MMBR (Microbiology and Molecular Biology Reviews) community has been at the forefront of defying the standard wisdom; and thus it is, in many ways, its story that we now wish to tell.”

more…

There must be no barriers for freedom of inquiry. There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors.
-J. Robert Oppenheimer, The Open Mind, p. 114 (1955)
 
There must be no barriers for freedom of inquiry. There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors.
-J. Robert Oppenheimer, The Open Mind, p. 114 (1955)
Quite right!
 
It appears the issue of the debate is the article in the website, (chronicle.pitt.edu/?p=69)

“Schwartz believes that evolutionary changes occur suddenly as opposed to the Darwinian evolutionary model, which is characterized by gradual and constant change. Gaps in the fossil record could bolster Schwartz’s theory because, in Schwartz’s opinion, there is no “missing link.” “
The fact is there are two types of evolution: rapid (punctuated) and gradual. Darwin had no concept of DNA and mutations spreading throughout the reproductive population. Because the reproductive cycles of bacteria and insects such changes appear very rapidly. Schwartz is wrong in claiming there are no missing links: fossils show intermediate species between fish and amphibians, dinosaurs and birds, and recently, “Arde” in Ethopia.
 
Right, of course. I should have known.

I think a far better explanation is that all creatures with four limbs were designed to breathe the same atmosphere, have similar organs and live under one earth gravity.

Peace,
Ed
So despite evidence of evolutionary thinkings usefulness, you choose to say “ya, but ID sounds right to me”
 
So despite evidence of evolutionary thinkings usefulness, you choose to say “ya, but ID sounds right to me”
Nature publishes paper on the edge of evolution, http://behe.uncommondescent.com/2009/09/nature-publishes-paper-on-the-edge-of-evolution-part-1/

Nature has published an interesting paper recently which places severe limits on Darwinian evolution. This is the first of several posts discussing it.
The manuscript, from the laboratory of Joseph Thornton at the University of Oregon, is entitled “An epistatic ratchet constrains the direction of glucocorticoid receptor evolution”. ( tinyurl.com/yeq2cy8 ) The work is interpreted by its authors within a standard Darwinian framework. Nonetheless, like the important work over the years of Michigan State’s Richard Lenski on laboratory evolution of E. coli, which has shown trillions of bacteria evolving under selection for tens of thousands of generations yielding just broken genes and minor changes, the new work demonstrates the looming brick wall which confronts unguided evolution in at least one system. And it points strongly to the conclusion that such walls are common throughout all of biology.

more…
 
There are no known cases where Evolution fails.
This is very much like the other statement repeated often here: “There are no flaws in evolutionary theory”.

There are no flaws in evolutionary theory that an active imagination cannot fix.

Even with well-documented evidence showing contemporary evolutionists suggesting a radical reworking of the theory to try to overcome the significant failures that the theory has shown … we will hear that “there are no known cases where evolution has ever failed”.

There’s no sense in putting mathematics around such a statement because it’s unnecessary. The tautology can be proven any time:
  1. I declare that this thing evolved. Thus, evolution did not fail.
That is the kind of explanatory power we have come to expect from the evolutionary enterprise – and we can expect more of the same in the future.
 
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