Evolution In The Classroom

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buffalo said:
Kinda of like talkorigins?
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I was the one using talkorigins, don’t get people confused now.
In any case, there are far more (credible) sites that agree with talkorigins, I simply use it as an easy reference because of their stated purpose, but the Discovery Institute seems to be the only game in town for you.
 
liquidpele said:
I was the one using talkorigins, don’t get people confused now.
In any case, there are far more (credible) sites that agree with talkorigins, I simply use it as an easy reference because of their stated purpose, but the Discovery Institute seems to be the only game in town for you.
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Right. And apart from the Discovery Institute’s talking point, Buffalo has no evidence at all to back up his claim that Dr. Scott advocates teaching religion in science classes. Nothing at all!
 
rossum said:
More strictly you are talking about an ID/Creationist mathematical model of their understanding of evolution. Until we have seen the details of that model, and ascertained whether or not it correctly models the effects of chemistry, natural selection etc. we will not accept its results. Please give a reference to the paper where the model is described, the calculations performed and the result of those calculations.

You need to read up on the anthropic principle. You also need to look at the differences between cosmology, abiogenesis and evolution.
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The fact is, all these refer to different (name removed by moderator)robabilities of the causal flow, all of which are required to occur for evolution to occur.

The best summation of this I’ve seen was an essay called “Post-Agnostic Science”

leaderu.com/orgs/arn/koons/rk_postagnosticscience.htm
rossum said:
False. Natural selection is roughly a count of the number of grandchildren you have. The example of a sieve has already been given. Natural selection sieves out all the genes that do not reproduce or that reproduce less well than average. It amplifies genes that reproduce better than average. The humorous version:If your parents didn’t have any children then the chances are you won’t have any either.

rossum
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Interesting, and slightly different to the other reply I’ve had - still does nowt to justify the likelihood of increasing sophistication of the beasties reproduced, does it? Or the likelihood of evolution of intelligence or any other advantageous development - which has little connection to how many kiddies people have, in my experience 😉
 
hecd2 said:
Rossum has already given you a reply that is patient and comprehensive and I won’t repeat what he has said. It seems to me however that your diatribe against you mistakenly consider to be evolutionary theory was not relevant to my post which made the point that being an evolutionary biologist is not itself the sole reason to be an atheist, even for Dawkins.

As for whether science is the pre-eminent method for gaining knowledge about reality, well its pre-eminence arises from its historical efficacy, which other methods of seeking knowledge demonstrably lack. What discipline other than science could one possibly turn to if one wants to learn something about the processes by which the diversity of biological species that we observe about us came to be?

Alec
evolutionpages.com
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I was criticising your contempt for intelligient design and young Earth creationism, rather than your main statement…

And science has been demonstratively inefficient many, many times, often with catastrophic, or potentially catastrophic consequences.

Where mainstream science fails to admit it may well be wrong, I can’t help but bring myself to defend all alternatives. I will defend anyones right to disbelieve any theory which falsely presents itself as conclusive fact.
 
rossum said:
Move to the UK. Religions Instruction classes are mandatory in all state schools.

Not in the UK. We have no constitutional bars on religious imagery on public buildings.

Some are, some aren’t.

rossum
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Whatever you do, don’t move to the UK! Anti-religious fervour here is paramount! I can’t tell you how many times I’ve been forced to defend my beliefs against self-righteous sneery atheists, and been harrassed by them! If you think ex-junkie Born again Christians are annoying, you should try the nutty UK believers in the unholy word of Dawkins!
 
Touchstone said:
This is the core insight of evolutionary theory – that natural selection is selective in an impersonal, non-cognitive way.

If you take a shovel full of gravel, and dump it into a colander or similar sieve, you will see selection happening before your eyes – small stones fall through, and big stones remain. The sieve doesn’t think, it doesn’t choose or refuse based on any intelligence it has. It’s an inanimate object, and the selection of big stones is just an artifact of its physical structure – its holes permit small stones through, and won’t let stones bigger than its holes.

That’s a very simple bit of pedagogy, but it demonstrates the process of selection as description of impersonal, physical processes. Natural selection is a much more complicated, dynamic sieve, and the criteria for what “stones pass through” are much more complex than the simple, regular lattice of the colander under your sink, but the principle is the same - natural, impersonal processes doing their thing.

-TS
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The pedagogy is my issue here specifically. Such impersonal physical processes - no excuse for intelligent life arising from an amoeba being considered the most rational evaluation.

Brrrrrrrrrrrrr… schnip!

That’s the sound of the *original * Occams razor cutting off that particular arguement :eek:
 
Mystic_Banana said:
The pedagogy is my issue here specifically. Such impersonal physical processes - no excuse for intelligent life arising from an amoeba being considered the most rational evaluation.

Brrrrrrrrrrrrr… schnip!

That’s the sound of the *original * Occams razor cutting off that particular arguement :eek:
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Ahem - to clarify the last bit of the first bit…

“a sorry excuse for a reasonable argument that intelligent life might have arisen from an amoeba without intelligent influence”
 
Mystic_Banana said:
Ahem - to clarify the last bit of the first bit…

“a sorry excuse for a reasonable argument that intelligent life might have arisen from an amoeba without intelligent influence”
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And yet people start off as a single celled zygote and you don’t seem to require God in the womb pushing cells around in that instance.
 
Mystic_Banana said:
Whatever you do, don’t move to the UK! Anti-religious fervour here is paramount! I can’t tell you how many times I’ve been forced to defend my beliefs against self-righteous sneery atheists, and been harrassed by them! If you think ex-junkie Born again Christians are annoying, you should try the nutty UK believers in the unholy word of Dawkins!
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I actually find it refreshing that religion is a thing of the past in the UK.
 
liquidpele said:
And yet people start off as a single celled zygote and you don’t seem to require God in the womb pushing cells around in that instance.
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Liquidpele, how do you know God isn’t in there pushing cells around? How do you expect a zygote to assemble itself into a viable baby?
 
Mystic_Banana said:
Whatever you do, don’t move to the UK! Anti-religious fervour here is paramount! I can’t tell you how many times I’ve been forced to defend my beliefs against self-righteous sneery atheists, and been harrassed by them! If you think ex-junkie Born again Christians are annoying, you should try the nutty UK believers in the unholy word of Dawkins!
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I visited London last year and it surprised me at how much lack of faith and anti-religious atmosphere was in the city. People seemed depressed and angry – even young people who were out with friends. This was different from London years ago. It has gotten worse in many ways. Although I also enjoyed meeting some very devoted Catholics who are fighting against the tide. But I was saddened by the atheism that is widespread in such a beautiful place. The same kind of thing happened in Amsterdam.
 
Montalo said:
evolution is not a fact

it is possible(however unlikely) to design an experiment to prove it wrong

it has falsifiability, and human being have not tested it under every single circumstance, making it impossible for it to be a fact
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Since not every human being has had their fingers cut off, it is not a fact that finger don’t grow back since it has not been tested under every circumstance.
 
StAnastasia said:
Liquidpele, how do you know God isn’t in there pushing cells around? How do you expect a zygote to assemble itself into a viable baby?
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The argument is that God may very well be “pushing cells around”, but natural explanations aren’t considered anti-religious.
 
reggieM said:
I visited London last year and it surprised me at how much lack of faith and anti-religious atmosphere was in the city. People seemed depressed and angry – even young people who were out with friends. This was different from London years ago. It has gotten worse in many ways. Although I also enjoyed meeting some very devoted Catholics who are fighting against the tide. But I was saddened by the atheism that is widespread in such a beautiful place. The same kind of thing happened in Amsterdam.
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That’s funny – we visited London in August, and had a wonderful time. We spent a day at the Darwins’ home at Downe House, and I had a nice long talk with a Catholic woman and man who work in the bookshop of Downe House. They wanted to know about American creationism, because they had never considered evolution to be something that conflicts with their Catholic faith. They thought creationism was just an American phenomenon, but I assured them it was creeping into Britain.

StAnastasia
 
StAnastasia said:
Liquidpele, how do you know God isn’t in there pushing cells around? How do you expect a zygote to assemble itself into a viable baby?
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How do you know God isn’t throwing down lighting bolts, and that angels aren’t crying to cause rain?

My point is that it’s strange to me that some people seem to have no problem believing that zygote to human is a natural process (minus the soul anyway), but then would consider a similar transition between simple organism to complex organism over billions of years to be absurd.
 
liquidpele said:
How do you know God isn’t throwing down lighting bolts, and that angels aren’t crying to cause rain?

My point is that it’s strange to me that some people seem to have no problem believing that zygote to human is a natural process (minus the soul anyway), but then would consider a similar transition between simple organism to complex organism over billions of years to be absurd.
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Doesn’t Aristophanes’ “modern scientific” character ridicule the ancient notion that rain is Zeus pissing through a sieve?

And if zygote to human is a natural process, why isn’t the development of soulishness a natural process?
 
StAnastasia said:
That’s funny – we visited London in August, and had a wonderful time. … They thought creationism was just an American phenomenon, but I assured them it was creeping into Britain.
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Creeping in … like that’s a problem anyone needs to care about. Meanwhile, I saw scenes like this on the streets of London every night.

A nice by-product of the Darwinian vision of human life …

The streets of no shame: The shocking picture that epitomises Britain’s ladette culture


Excessive drinking: It all gets too much for one fresher on last week’s Cardiff pub crawl

Such scenes are not uncommon, which is why Cardiff - one of the country’s worst cities for binge drinking - has just banned boozing on the streets.

The crackdown is aimed at late night revellers, targeting rowdy hen and stag parties and generally trying to make the streets safer after dark.

Yesterday it was hailed as a big step towards ‘reclaiming the streets’ from drunken yobs.

Cardiff Central MP Jenny Willott said: 'Late night alcohol-fuelled crime and anti-social behaviour is a huge problem on the streets.

'People deserve to have a night out without the fear of intimidation or facing violence as a result of excessive alcohol consumption.

It comes as experts warned that British schoolgirls are the worst for binge drinking in Europe. The problem is likely to become worse as it becomes more socially acceptable, a conference heard.

Some 648 children under ten were admitted to hospital due to drink between 2003 and 2008.
 
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