Evolution != Materialism

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A common tactic of evolution-deniers is to claim that evolutionary science “presupposes a materialistic philosophy”, as though evolutionary science were a mere offshoot of a given philosophy rather than real science. The claim is false, and is a transparent attempt to wish away inconvenient facts and data which contradict the deniers’ **own **philosophical agenda. While many biologists or molecular geneticists are materialists, many are not, and many are theists, and unless the deniers are prepared to claim that no “true” theist would ever believe in evolution, the existence of such scientists is an undercutting defeater in itself.

But it can be also shown more rigorously the claim is false. Let E = evolution, C = special creation or spontaneous generation, G = God, g = a creator of some sort, not the philosophical God, but the existence of which a materialist would deny (though not necessarily a naturalist or atheist).

Now under materialism it is certainly true that
P(E|~G && ~g) >> P(C|~G && ~g). The only alternative to evolution is spontaneous generation, under materialism. Science clearly shows evolution by mutation and natural selection (no matter how unlikely some theists claim it to be) to be much more likely than spontaneous generation.

So, as appears to be the case for many, critical thinking disappears when there is an agenda to defend. The preceding is enough to establish that a materialist will accept evolution. It is **not **enough to establish that the acceptance of evolution is dependent on that philosophy. For that you would also need P(C|g) >> P(E|g) or P(C|G) >> P(E|G). If this were the case, then yes, acceptance of evolution would depend on acceptance of g or G. But this is not the case.

Under naturalism it is also true that
P(E|g) >> P(C|g). Why? Because g is not omnipotent nor omniscient. We assume the non-omnipotent and non-omniscient designer is operating under some constraint and without complete knowledge. If we wanted to make life ourselves (which we are in fact very close to doing) and wanted more complex forms than we were capable of designing directly, we would use an evolutionary process; in fact, it’s been shown empirically that evolutionary algorithms work quite well; an example is in the designing of proteins. Moreover, even if the designer had such knowledge and power, there would no reason for all the similarities seen. Why should all life forms (except for a very few primitive forms) share the same DNA code for proteins? Why should they fit in a nested hierarchy?

Under theism it is true that
P(E|G && NU) >> P(C|G && NU) provided that the universe is one governed by natural laws (which I have denoted NU), which is in fact what we have, as an empirical observation. If this were not the case, there could never be any evidence for or against special creation or common descent. A stork could give birth to a frog which could give birth to a human. Or, the frog and the human could have been specially created. No evidence could come forth either way. DNA sequences, if DNA existed at all, would be completely random. However, because there are natural laws, that allows us to compare the hypotheses of directed, or theistic, evolution versus special creation. (Note here that none of the “standard” arguments about how “unlikely” evolution would be can pass muster for it is now a Divinely-guided process - God would ensure, in some fashion, the “right” mutations came to pass.) Now while there many evidences available I will show the most convincing for common descent of humans and other primates from a common ancestor: the presence of endogenous retroviral insertions (ERVs) at the same place in the genome. These are easily explained under common descent, as they were inherited from ancestors. Fixation is an unlikely event in the ancestral population, but once it occurs the likelihood of their descendants inheriting it is close to one. However, under special creation, these ERVs would have not only had to have proceeded to fixation (an unlikely event in itself) but occurred at the exact same spot in the genome. This is much more unlikely.

Now, what deniers illegitimately want to do is compare P(E|~G && ~g) to P(C|G). They arrive at P(C|G) >> P(E|~G && ~g) (also illegitimately, in my view, but that’s a subject for another discussion) and then declare about how unlikely evolution is and how its science is driven by philosophy. As I have shown, this is simply a lack of critical thinking and not the right comparison.
 
I have a friend who is more concerned about thinking. He is Catholic but he sees thinking as being somehow more important. Thinking is important, by the way.

What we have here is a clash of orthodoxies.

It interests me to see the constant push here to make urgent a scientific idea. Why is this going on? Is it about truth? No, it appears not. It appears to be an attempt to make scientific knowledge the most important knowledge a person could have – a secular counterpart to divinely revealed knowledge. This knowledge, we are told, is not only superior but it infringes on certain claims made by the Catholic Church. It bluntly calls certain claims false or lacking evidence or symbolic. Since men who engage in science operate with blinders on, they can only see a narrow area in front of them. There is no peripheral vision.

Some non-theists are fond of posting here and it is worth noting that since they reject the reality of divine revelation and the existence of God, all they have is sensory knowledge and, in fact, present it as the only knowledge there is.

On a forum called Catholic Answers, what is the Catholic Answer? First, as the Holy Father has stated: “But it is also true that the theory of evolution is not a complete, scientifically proven theory.” That’s it.

However, I will also pose the additional question. So what if the majority in the United States believes in Creation as opposed to evolution? This is, in fact, the case. What will be the well-defined consequence of this?

Peace,
Ed
 
So what if the majority in the United States believes in Creation as opposed to evolution? This is, in fact, the case. What will be the well-defined consequence of this?

Peace,
Ed
I scientifically illiterate country that will not be able to compete on the world stage.
 
I have a friend who is more concerned about thinking. He is Catholic but he sees thinking as being somehow more important. Thinking is important, by the way.

What we have here is a clash of orthodoxies.

It interests me to see the constant push here to make urgent a scientific idea. Why is this going on? Is it about truth? No, it appears not. It appears to be an attempt to make scientific knowledge the most important knowledge a person could have – a secular counterpart to divinely revealed knowledge. This knowledge, we are told, is not only superior but it infringes on certain claims made by the Catholic Church. It bluntly calls certain claims false or lacking evidence or symbolic. Since men who engage in science operate with blinders on, they can only see a narrow area in front of them. There is no peripheral vision.

Some non-theists are fond of posting here and it is worth noting that since they reject the reality of divine revelation and the existence of God, all they have is sensory knowledge and, in fact, present it as the only knowledge there is.

On a forum called Catholic Answers, what is the Catholic Answer? First, as the Holy Father has stated: “But it is also true that the theory of evolution is not a complete, scientifically proven theory.” That’s it.

However, I will also pose the additional question. So what if the majority in the United States believes in Creation as opposed to evolution? This is, in fact, the case. What will be the well-defined consequence of this?

Peace,
Ed
I think the celebration of religious intuition over scientific thinking is coming home to roost on the global climate change issue, as an example. Religious prejudices, which are particularly steep in America against science (as you allude to in your allowance that perhaps even a majority of Americans deny something as well established as evolutionary theory) become the substrate for denialism, a mentality disposed to denialism – the clinging to religiously appealing ideas over against empirical evidence that contradicts it.

That means that the religious “culture war” against evolution has dumbed things down in the public discourse so much that unappealing messages from science in other areas – CO2 is accumulating in quantities that threaten serious climatic consequences for mankind, some possibly extremely hard to reverse once key thresholds are reached – are simply rejected by masses of otherwise intelligent people because they have succumbed to religious conditioning against the value of evidence, and the ‘reality of reality’.

While denialism toward evolution is frustrating for those who want to advance science and knowledge for their own sakes and benefits, such denialism isn’t obviously dangerous in a direct way. But, increasingly, the denialist ethos in the religious culture of America has become a very significant problem for people who have been studying the global climate and the putative effects of man’s activities on it in the last two centuries. There’s some of this also at work in epidemiology, too – lots of religious folk are causing a regression in terms of public health by embracing denialism on the question of vaccination, for example (I’m a homeschooler, and the vax-denialism/refusal rates are astonishing in homeschool circles!).

But climate change and AGW are where the stakes are high, and the consequences we face utterly sobering as the price of mass denialism. It may be a “side effect” of denialism on origins issues, and it may be true that the Church really did not choose to promote denialism on climate change, and that the denialism that is pervasive now is “collateral damage” from the denialism fomented so long and so fervently against the science of biology.

Consequences are what they are.

There’s far more people involved in this issue than just Americans. But America has a hugely high-impact role in this issue, and it’s unfortunate to see the psychology of anti-knowledge now coming home to roost on a subject that is high-stakes and pressing upon us. If you look at the denialism camps on each subject, you see a distinct overlap. Go look at the “Uncommon Descent” blog, for example of the unity found in denialism of biology, and now, climate science. When you have to poison the well by demonizing science, it’s very hard to confine the demonization to just the scientific findings that offend you. It ends up in breeding denialism that obtains in a general way.

-TS
 
I scientifically illiterate country that will not be able to compete on the world stage.
So there are no creationist computer programmers or designers, or automobile designers or aircraft builders? So much is done that has nothing to do with biology. When science only means evolution, then that definition is inaccurate.

Then there are those who are functionally illiterate and have not even graduated from high school.

Peace,
Ed
 
I think the celebration of religious intuition over scientific thinking is coming home to roost on the global climate change issue, as an example. Religious prejudices, which are particularly steep in America against science (as you allude to in your allowance that perhaps even a majority of Americans deny something as well established as evolutionary theory) become the substrate for denialism, a mentality disposed to denialism – the clinging to religiously appealing ideas over against empirical evidence that contradicts it.

snip

While denialism toward evolution is frustrating for those who want to advance science and knowledge for their own sakes and benefits, such denialism isn’t obviously dangerous in a direct way. But, increasingly, the denialist ethos in the religious culture of America has become a very significant problem for people who have been studying the global climate and the putative effects of man’s activities on it in the last two centuries. There’s some of this also at work in epidemiology, too – lots of religious folk are causing a regression in terms of public health by embracing denialism on the question of vaccination, for example (I’m a homeschooler, and the vax-denialism/refusal rates are astonishing in homeschool circles!).

But climate change and AGW are where the stakes are high, and the consequences we face utterly sobering as the price of mass denialism. It may be a “side effect” of denialism on origins issues, and it may be true that the Church really did not choose to promote denialism on climate change, and that the denialism that is pervasive now is “collateral damage” from the denialism fomented so long and so fervently against the science of biology.

Consequences are what they are.

There’s far more people involved in this issue than just Americans. But America has a hugely high-impact role in this issue, and it’s unfortunate to see the psychology of anti-knowledge now coming home to roost on a subject that is high-stakes and pressing upon us. If you look at the denialism camps on each subject, you see a distinct overlap. Go look at the “Uncommon Descent” blog, for example of the unity found in denialism of biology, and now, climate science. When you have to poison the well by demonizing science, it’s very hard to confine the demonization to just the scientific findings that offend you. It ends up in breeding denialism that obtains in a general way.

-TS
I study the history of technology. That is my primary after work pursuit. Denialism is a nice word but it ignores a fundamental change that has occurred over the last 40 years regarding how Americans view their leaders. I think you’ll find that a lack of trust is directly proportional to an increase in criminal activity up to and including the Presidency. Of course, all it takes is for even one good man to begin to turn that around.

Witness, “read my lips, now new taxes.” Or, they couldn’t find the Weapons of Mass Destruction. Or the Iraq War will be funded by the sale of Iraqi Oil. Or Enron, Tyco, Global Crossing and the recent Wall Street catastrophe. How many billions can one acquire before it is enough? My observation: there is no such thing as too much money.

When Americans read reports that home valuations were artificially inflated prior to the big collapse and that no one was guarding the henhouse. Well?

Biology is big money but it means turning out product. “Ask your Doctor if Z is right for you.”? These are drugs, not different flavors of ice cream. Only a Doctor is competent to diagnose a relevant condition and then prescribe such things. To be honest, I’d be a little concerned if my doctor needed me to suggest a treatment. They are depended upon by the public to have a certain level of expertise.

“anti-knowledge”? Another interesting word. However, as the level of actual corruption goes up, the level of public trust goes down.

I suggest you read the description for this book:

hup.harvard.edu/catalog/MCGBEN.html

You are a knowledgeable person and I know you know that those who will be making the final decision regarding climate change will not be the public. I’ve spent the last 40 years watching the former Big 3 auto giants howl in pain every time Congress suggested a slight increase in gas mileage or control of emissions. “It’s too expensive! It’ll kill us all!” And hybrids? “We don’t have the technology! And if we did, it would price the average car out of the reach of most consumers!!” Meanwhile, the Japanese…

I watched an official from Enron tell Ted Koeppel “it’s complicated” over and over while poor Ted tried to get a straight answer out of him, shortly before the Enron debacle. And what was his religious motivation or that of Wall Street?

When a certain level of corruption is reached – real people lost their homes and a good chunk of their 401K’s and bailed out the wealthy – would you blame some if they said to you, “You know that last flu shot? Well I had a bad reaction and I’m not getting another one.”

Climate Change, along with the word Green, is about to become a global, Trillion dollar industry. Unfortunately, people are less inclined to view the initiative as saving the planet but more as another excuse to make the rich richer. Speaking generally, we all know the rich willl not allow themselves to choke to death or watch their beachfront property slowly sink into the ocean. The average working-class person just wants an equitable share of the crumbs so they can go on living.

Peace,
Ed
 
A common tactic of evolution-deniers is to claim that evolutionary science “presupposes a materialistic philosophy”, as though evolutionary science were a mere offshoot of a given philosophy rather than real science. The claim is false, and is a transparent attempt to wish away inconvenient facts and data which contradict the deniers’ **own **philosophical agenda. While many biologists or molecular geneticists are materialists, many are not, and many are theists, and unless the deniers are prepared to claim that no “true” theist would ever believe in evolution, the existence of such scientists is an undercutting defeater in itself.

But it can be also shown more rigorously the claim is false. Let E = evolution, C = special creation or spontaneous generation, G = God, g = a creator of some sort, not the philosophical God, but the existence of which a materialist would deny (though not necessarily a naturalist or atheist).

Now under materialism it is certainly true that
P(E|~G && ~g) >> P(C|~G && ~g). The only alternative to evolution is spontaneous generation, under materialism. Science clearly shows evolution by mutation and natural selection (no matter how unlikely some theists claim it to be) to be much more likely than spontaneous generation.

So, as appears to be the case for many, critical thinking disappears when there is an agenda to defend. The preceding is enough to establish that a materialist will accept evolution. It is **not **enough to establish that the acceptance of evolution is dependent on that philosophy. For that you would also need P(C|g) >> P(E|g) or P(C|G) >> P(E|G). If this were the case, then yes, acceptance of evolution would depend on acceptance of g or G. But this is not the case.

Under naturalism it is also true that
P(E|g) >> P(C|g). Why? Because g is not omnipotent nor omniscient. We assume the non-omnipotent and non-omniscient designer is operating under some constraint and without complete knowledge. If we wanted to make life ourselves (which we are in fact very close to doing) and wanted more complex forms than we were capable of designing directly, we would use an evolutionary process; in fact, it’s been shown empirically that evolutionary algorithms work quite well; an example is in the designing of proteins. Moreover, even if the designer had such knowledge and power, there would no reason for all the similarities seen. Why should all life forms (except for a very few primitive forms) share the same DNA code for proteins? Why should they fit in a nested hierarchy?

Under theism it is true that
P(E|G && NU) >> P(C|G && NU) provided that the universe is one governed by natural laws (which I have denoted NU), which is in fact what we have, as an empirical observation. If this were not the case, there could never be any evidence for or against special creation or common descent. A stork could give birth to a frog which could give birth to a human. Or, the frog and the human could have been specially created. No evidence could come forth either way. DNA sequences, if DNA existed at all, would be completely random. However, because there are natural laws, that allows us to compare the hypotheses of directed, or theistic, evolution versus special creation. (Note here that none of the “standard” arguments about how “unlikely” evolution would be can pass muster for it is now a Divinely-guided process - God would ensure, in some fashion, the “right” mutations came to pass.) Now while there many evidences available I will show the most convincing for common descent of humans and other primates from a common ancestor: the presence of endogenous retroviral insertions (ERVs) at the same place in the genome. These are easily explained under common descent, as they were inherited from ancestors. Fixation is an unlikely event in the ancestral population, but once it occurs the likelihood of their descendants inheriting it is close to one. However, under special creation, these ERVs would have not only had to have proceeded to fixation (an unlikely event in itself) but occurred at the exact same spot in the genome. This is much more unlikely.

Now, what deniers illegitimately want to do is compare P(E|~G && ~g) to P(C|G). They arrive at P(C|G) >> P(E|~G && ~g) (also illegitimately, in my view, but that’s a subject for another discussion) and then declare about how unlikely evolution is and how its science is driven by philosophy. As I have shown, this is simply a lack of critical thinking and not the right comparison.
Double check to make sure you defined all your variables as I cannot understand P(E|G && NU) >> P(C|G && NU) without knowing NU. Unless I am missing something.

(Edit: nevermind I see it, I am a bonehead)
 
P(E|~G && ~g) to P(C|G).
00 0 00 0 00
01 1 01 0 01
10 1 10 0 10
11 1 11 1 11

No evolution God and god no special creation and no God
no Evolution God and god no special creation God
Evoution God and God TO special creation and no God
Evolution no God and no god Special creation God

The following is not being argued:


  1. *]Evolution no God and no god
    *]no Evolution God and god
    *]special creation and no God
 
So there are no creationist computer programmers or designers, or automobile designers or aircraft builders? So much is done that has nothing to do with biology. When science only means evolution, then that definition is inaccurate.

Then there are those who are functionally illiterate and have not even graduated from high school.

Peace,
Ed
The problem is you don’t understand the method, the field, or the implications.

Were not talking about you average Joe that has a degree, and who’s work consists of UML diagrams and plugging code into PC. Were talking about those that further the knowledge of mankind.

If you want to start messing with established scientific theories, just because they don’t agree with an ancient book written by tribe of desert nomads then where do you stop? Shale we start teaching astrology instead of astronomy, alchemy instead of chemistry, creationism instead of biology? For its EXACTLY the same thing.

When you take issue with the evolution, you take issue with the scientific method, which means you take issue with ALL of science.

I suggest you watch and play CLOSE attention to this video, you want to take you country back to the dark ages. If you don’t have the Patience for the full video, and i strongly suspect you don’t for creationists seem to think ignorance is an argument, then start at 22:50.

video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-102519600994873365&ei=3QEnS-i5IYrV-QbmzpXGDA&q=tyson+degrasse&hl=en#
 
Climate Change, along with the word Green, is about to become a global, Trillion dollar industry. Unfortunately, people are less inclined to view the initiative as saving the planet but more as another excuse to make the rich richer. Speaking generally, we all know the rich willl not allow themselves to choke to death or watch their beachfront property slowly sink into the ocean. The average working-class person just wants an equitable share of the crumbs so they can go on living.

Peace,
Ed
Thanks, Ed. I don’t want to hijack the thread towards the AGW hot potato, but those are the real-world effects of religious denialism aimed at blunting the dissonance caused among so many of the faithful on the question of origins and biology. The Church – Christendom, not just Rome (Rome has its crazies in its ranks, but overall is really pretty sane compared to most Protestant sects) has created a culture of denialism and dishonesty on scientific questions, and foolish, reckless apathy on climate change I think will be a large scale consequence of that commitment.

-TS
 
When you take issue with the evolution, you take issue with the scientific method, which means you take issue with ALL of science.]
Now that’s just absurd. One can disagree with a specific theory or scientific paradigm without consequently attacking all other scientific fields of inquiry. This type of comment is indicative of group think, which continues to plague mankind whether it be in religious or secular circles.

That video indicates the guy’s assumptions and biases. He accuses Newton of having “God on the brain”. At that point, he loses all credibility as an objective presenter. It would be similar to my arguing to you about morality while simultaneously calling atheists/agnostics “heathens” or “myopic secularists”. Objectivity is lost, and so, too, is his message.

The man is a consummate fool. He assumes near the end that religious people in the lab will throw up their hands and proclaim “Well, no one will figure this out because it is God’s will” when they encounter difficulty. I have never met a single religious person that reacts in this way. Far from it. Everyone I know, be they Muslim, Jewish, Christian, or even Wicca, view science as simply a means to an end. They push knowledge and explore boundaries in a humble attempt to solve mysteries and better humankind. Granted, there is the profit motive but no one here denies the role of self interest in humanity.

I could just as easily hold a lecture discussing the multitudes of inhumane acts done in the name of science and progress (Eugenics, Nazis, Mao, etc). Then I could make the gross connection that people who reject religion and cling only to science are monsters in the making and do not belong in positions of power or in the science lab. It’s absurd.

In the future, you will be far more convincing referencing theorists and discussions that attempt to honestly and objectively win over the skeptic without blatantly lampooning the opposition as ignorant.
 
Thanks, Ed. I don’t want to hijack the thread towards the AGW hot potato, but those are the real-world effects of religious denialism aimed at blunting the dissonance caused among so many of the faithful on the question of origins and biology. The Church – Christendom, not just Rome (Rome has its crazies in its ranks, but overall is really pretty sane compared to most Protestant sects) has created a culture of denialism and dishonesty on scientific questions, and foolish, reckless apathy on climate change I think will be a large scale consequence of that commitment.
Wow…tell that to a Jakian thomist and he will be laughing for all of lent. You still don’t understand Catholic Christianity Touchstone. I would recommend picking up a book by Fr. Stanley L. Jaki OSB:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanley_Jaki

The Church is such a strong supporter of the scientific evidence for global warming, that I am afraid if it turns out to be false many will accuse her of being gullible. The Pope talks about climate change like every second Wednesday audience… so much so that it gets a little tiring.
 
I have a friend who is more concerned about thinking. He is Catholic but he sees thinking as being somehow more important. Thinking is important, by the way.
But not as much as defending an ideology, apparently, according to you. Thought processes are just supposed to switch off as soon as any conclusion appears contrary to the ideology.
What we have here is a clash of orthodoxies.
No, ed. You’ve got an ideology or “orthodoxy” to defend. I don’t.
It interests me to see the constant push here to make urgent a scientific idea. Why is this going on? Is it about truth? No, it appears not.
It’s not about truth to you, that’s evident. You haven’t even offered an attempt at a rebuttal. All you do is continuously repeat the claim ad nauseam that evolution is merely about a philosophical presupposition even in the face of evidence showing otherwise. But as I said before, there’s no depth of intellectual dishonesty a defender of an ideology won’t stoop to in the face of contrary evidence.

It’s about truth to us, though.
It bluntly calls certain claims false or lacking evidence or symbolic.
Indeed so.
Since men who engage in science operate with blinders on, they can only see a narrow area in front of them. There is no peripheral vision.
Of course. It couldn’t be that these men who engage in science are actually (gasp) right, now could it? No, they must be defective in some way. Has it ever occurred to you that maybe there’s something you don’t see? You’re merely projecting your own defects onto everyone else.
On a forum called Catholic Answers, what is the Catholic Answer? First, as the Holy Father has stated: “But it is also true that the theory of evolution is not a complete, scientifically proven theory.” That’s it.
Well in this case the Catholic Answer is right and it is wrong. It’s true evolution is not 100% proven. Nothing ever is in science. Gravity is not 100% proven either. Evolution is about as good as it gets, though.
However, I will also pose the additional question. So what if the majority in the United States believes in Creation as opposed to evolution? This is, in fact, the case. What will be the well-defined consequence of this?
It shows the majority is ignorant. Not a good thing overall.
 
Well in this case the Catholic Answer is right and it is wrong. It’s true evolution is not 100% proven. Nothing ever is in science. Gravity is not 100% proven either. Evolution is about as good as it gets, though.
In order to fully understand the Holy Father’s position one needs to understand the position of the Church. On one end we have the atheists screaming that we are unreasonable and we hate science, and on the other end we have the protestants screaming at us that were are not “biblical” and we are all going to hell. If we go completely forward and show a neglect for scripture, we are giving fodder to the protestants and it could cause Catholics to convert to protestantism. In addition we are the religion of the “logos” and the “logos” in conveyed through the scriptures. Therefore we take our sweet time before we decide to reinterpret what is written. Some may say this is a crime against science – we say it is wise.
 
👍
Now that’s just absurd. One can disagree with a specific theory or scientific paradigm without consequently attacking all other scientific fields of inquiry. This type of comment is indicative of group think, which continues to plague mankind whether it be in religious or secular circles.

That video indicates the guy’s assumptions and biases. He accuses Newton of having “God on the brain”. At that point, he loses all credibility as an objective presenter. It would be similar to my arguing to you about morality while simultaneously calling atheists/agnostics “heathens” or “myopic secularists”. Objectivity is lost, and so, too, is his message.

The man is a consummate fool. He assumes near the end that religious people in the lab will throw up their hands and proclaim “Well, no one will figure this out because it is God’s will” when they encounter difficulty. I have never met a single religious person that reacts in this way. Far from it. Everyone I know, be they Muslim, Jewish, Christian, or even Wicca, view science as simply a means to an end. They push knowledge and explore boundaries in a humble attempt to solve mysteries and better humankind. Granted, there is the profit motive but no one here denies the role of self interest in humanity.

I could just as easily hold a lecture discussing the multitudes of inhumane acts done in the name of science and progress (Eugenics, Nazis, Mao, etc). Then I could make the gross connection that people who reject religion and cling only to science are monsters in the making and do not belong in positions of power or in the science lab. It’s absurd.

In the future, you will be far more convincing referencing theorists and discussions that attempt to honestly and objectively win over the skeptic without blatantly lampooning the opposition as ignorant.
You have totally missed the point of the video.

"One can disagree with a specific theory or scientific paradigm without consequently attacking all other scientific fields of inquiry."

Of course one can, but this must be done on scientific grounds, through the method. Creationist attack science on religious grounds. Creationism is not, and never will be science. They can’t stand up to the scrutiny of the academic arena, and that why they target the ignorant.

**"He accuses Newton of having “God on the brain”. At that point, he loses all credibility as an objective presenter. "

Did you even pay attention to the video? He didn’t just pull this out of thin air…

not ONE mention of god until he reaches the limit of his knowledge…then…

“This most beautiful system of the sun, planet and comets could only proceed from the counsel and dominion of an intelligent Being.” - Sir Isaac Newton.

He did not understand a problem and therefore declared “god did it”. Well we now understand the problem and know that “god” did in fact have nothing to do with it.

“He assumes near the end that religious people in the lab will throw up their hands and proclaim “Well, no one will figure this out because it is God’s will” when they encounter difficulty.”

I give you… the I.D. community.

"I could just as easily hold a lecture discussing the multitudes of inhumane acts done in the name of science and progress (Eugenics, Nazis, Mao, etc)."

Please don’t :o. Lets say i even granted that evolution caused these people to act in such a manner (which i don’t), but say i did. You to realise that how it makes people act has NO bearing on the validity of the scientific theory. The theory stand on the evidence that supports it, no how a few nut cases interpret it.

See the point is this, attack on science has occurred before, as explained in the video in AD1100 maths was declared the work of the devil. Much like many in the USA claim evolution is, and on the same unfounded religious grounds. The middle east to this day still has not recovered, do you want the same for your country?
 
The problem is you don’t understand the method, the field, or the implications.

Were not talking about you average Joe that has a degree, and who’s work consists of UML diagrams and plugging code into PC. Were talking about those that further the knowledge of mankind.

If you want to start messing with established scientific theories, just because they don’t agree with an ancient book written by tribe of desert nomads then where do you stop? Shale we start teaching astrology instead of astronomy, alchemy instead of chemistry, creationism instead of biology? For its EXACTLY the same thing.

When you take issue with the evolution, you take issue with the scientific method, which means you take issue with ALL of science.

I suggest you watch and play CLOSE attention to this video, you want to take you country back to the dark ages. If you don’t have the Patience for the full video, and i strongly suspect you don’t for creationists seem to think ignorance is an argument, then start at 22:50.

video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-102519600994873365&ei=3QEnS-i5IYrV-QbmzpXGDA&q=tyson+degrasse&hl=en#
Once again, the false sense of urgency. I will not be blocking the entrances to any labs. No priests or nuns will be blocking the entrances to any labs. The scientific method is not the only source of obtaining knowledge.

What Catholics need to pay close attention to is the false urgency about an idea most of them will discard once they leave high school. They will never need to refer to it again.

uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/philip-skell-revisited/

The word ignorance has been redefined to mean “you don’t agree with me.”

Peace,
Ed
 
Thanks, Ed. I don’t want to hijack the thread towards the AGW hot potato, but those are the real-world effects of religious denialism aimed at blunting the dissonance caused among so many of the faithful on the question of origins and biology. The Church – Christendom, not just Rome (Rome has its crazies in its ranks, but overall is really pretty sane compared to most Protestant sects) has created a culture of denialism and dishonesty on scientific questions, and foolish, reckless apathy on climate change I think will be a large scale consequence of that commitment.

-TS
I hope you take the following as my sincere desire to present my ideas. What you call dishonesty and denialism, from the Christian perspective, is occurring en masse in the scientific community. The purpose of the Christian community is to spread the reality of Jesus Christ. The secular/scientific community is in denial there. Dishonesty is occurring in science because a lot of money is at stake and people who do science are now writing books, and appearing on TV to promote anti-theism.

On the subject of climate change, a few words from the Pope:

crnewswire.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=siteContent.default&objectID=18419

You seem to have this idea that religious people are prone to various, for lack of a better word, afflictions regarding certain matters. I assure you. I don’t just read what the Pope has to say, I think about it. But not in that Sam Harris fashion where his fellow scientists get labeled “pod people” because they also got something out of what the Pope said regarding a scientific matter.

Regards,
Ed
 
There was a scientist on the radio a couple of weeks ago saying humans were producing 3% of the carbon released into the atmosphere.
God bless his percentages, I trust a scientist.
 
What Catholics need to pay close attention to is the false urgency about an idea most of them will discard once they leave high school. They will never need to refer to it again.

Peace,
Ed
They will however reap the rewards, eh?

Besided your logic is absurd. I will never fly in plane, therefore lets stop teaching gravity and start teaching god is pushing everyone to the ground.
 
They will however reap the rewards, eh?

Besided your logic is absurd. I will never fly in plane, therefore lets stop teaching gravity and start teaching god is pushing everyone to the ground.
The subject is evolution, not gravity.

“reap the rewards”? Of what? Once again, I will not be closing down any labs. Priests and nuns will not be closing down any labs.

Your views are extremist. Do you advocate checking every public school student for creationist literature before they enter the building?

Peace,
Ed
 
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