Evolution science or reality?

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Zeke2517

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I’ve been doing a lot of thinking about my faith in god and the theory of evolution. While evolution has certain aspects that seem logical, I try to stand by my belief in god.

I understand this is a very complicated issue to some, especially those with strong feelings towards the bible and god. While reading about evolution I find it increasingly more difficult to find sense in the bible. I question many aspects of the bible due to the overwhelming science there is to back up the claim on evolution. I have always been the type of person who can easily doubt a situation but this has got me very disturbed. The fact that I am doubting my own faith has me concerned.

Is this a test of my faith by the lord?

Has my education in science rendered me vulnerable to deception?
 
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Zeke2517:
Has my education in science rendered me vulnerable to deception?
In some ways. Science by its own definition can only say so much about the universe. We are limited to our knowledge of the universe by our five senses.

Science is emperical and we believe what we can touch and feel and see. Perhaps this is lesson behind doubting Thomas.

The more educated we become the more we believe we know without a doubt. Humility can help us become more open to the supernatural.
 
A distiction needs to be drawn here, between evolution and evolutionism.

Evolution, as a theory, does not conflict with the Catholic faith. The Bible is not a history book, and most Christians believe that the opening books of the Bible are inspired, but not necessarily factual. One way or another, God made the world to be as it is – evolution may have been one mechanism he used in his creation.

Evolutionism, as a scientific pseudo-religion, *does * conflict with the Catholic faith. It claims that “survival of the fittest” is the ultimate reality, and therefore invalidates any argument for the sanctity of human life or the existence of the soul.

You don’t have to blindly trust God, even though it would probably be good for you. Science and religion aren’t as contradictory as many people claim.
 
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Zeke2517:
Is this a test of my faith by the lord?
Why would he test you? He already knows…

When reason and faith collide (as in your case) one of them has to go. The choice is yours. Best of luck in your decison making process.
 
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Zeke2517:
I’ve been doing a lot of thinking about my faith in god and the theory of evolution. While evolution has certain aspects that seem logical, I try to stand by my belief in god.

Could you explain why you think the theory of evolution contradicts belief in God? Very many people, including me, disagree with you here. Why do you think you have to choose between God and evolution?
Edwin
 
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Zeke2517:
I’ve been doing a lot of thinking about my faith in god and the theory of evolution. While evolution has certain aspects that seem logical, I try to stand by my belief in god.That is a good thing! Just remember, you don’t have to choose one or the other.

I understand this is a very complicated issue to some, especially those with strong feelings towards the bible and god. While reading about evolution I find it increasingly more difficult to find sense in the bible. I question many aspects of the bible due to the overwhelming science there is to back up the claim on evolution. I have always been the type of person who can easily doubt a situation but this has got me very disturbed. The fact that I am doubting my own faith has me concerned. As I noted, you don’t have to choose one or the other. You can still have faith and accept the science, and I can prove it!
as my education in science rendered me vulnerable to deception?
That depends on what your science education is and how well grounded your faith is.

Peace

Tim
 
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Hitetlen:
When reason and faith collide (as in your case) one of them has to go.
Or we don’t understand one or both completely enough to see the agreement.

Peace

Tim
 
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Hitetlen:
Why would he test you? He already knows…

When reason and faith collide (as in your case) one of them has to go. The choice is yours.
“Reason” and “faith” are not “things” that collide with each other. That is a crude and silly metaphor.

Your argument works only if you think that each person’s reason is infallible.

If I find some aspect of my religious tradition rationally untenable, there are at least four:
  1. My reasoning is flawed
  2. My interpretation of my faith is incorrect
  3. The faith tradition handed down to me is imperfect and needs to be corrected or reinterpreted.
  4. The faith tradition handed down to me is fundamentally false and needs to be rejected.
Why are you ignoring the first three possibilities? In my mind, the first two options are by far the most likely, and option 4 should be adopted (by anyone, from any tradition) with the greatest reluctance.

Edwin
 
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Contarini:
Could you explain why you think the theory of evolution contradicts belief in God? Very many people, including me, disagree with you here. Why do you think you have to choose between God and evolution?
Edwin

I’m not entirely sure why I feel it contradicts the theory of evolution aside from maybe the dates that these events “supposedly” happened, and I am not a theologian so I could be wrong their as well. I just feel that if we were to believe in god and the bible than evolution seems out the window. It seems like evolution contradicts everything we were taught in the bible.

I have a hard time dealing with the fact that we were put here by god in our form now and science teaching that we have evolved from the apes. I’m sure god could have put us here and we evolved but it seems too unlikely.
 
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Zeke2517:
I’m not entirely sure why I feel it contradicts the theory of evolution aside from maybe the dates that these events “supposedly” happened, and I am not a theologian so I could be wrong their as well. I just feel that if we were to believe in god and the bible than evolution seems out the window. It seems like evolution contradicts everything we were taught in the bible.

I have a hard time dealing with the fact that we were put here by god in our form now and science teaching that we have evolved from the apes. I’m sure god could have put us here and we evolved but it seems too unlikely.
Or God just inserted Adam in the timeline wherever He wanted despite what may have been happening evolutionary wise.
 
Our Catholic faith doesn’t exclude those who believe in evolution.

Michael Behe is a Catholic scientist who wrote “Darwin’s Black Box,” debunking Darwin’s theory. Kenneth Miller is a Catholic scientist who wrote “Finding Darwin’s God,” a book defending evolution.

There’s even Catholics who believe in a very literal interpretation of Genesis; just check out Robert Sungenis’ Catholic Apologetics International web site.

You’re right; it is a very complicated topic. Thanks to all those who devote the time necessary to explain it to us laypeople through their books and magazine articles; which, I believe, is where you’ll get the information/perspective you’re looking for.
 
I was taught evolution when I was about 15 and thought this makes sense and decided that the Bible was a load of nonsense because of the story of creation. I also concluded that Jesus and Mary never existed, they were just made up stories in the Bible, as the Bible isn’t true. I still believed in God though, I just believed in my heart that he existed

A few years ago I had a religious experience, which brought me back to the Church. I now don’t doubt in the Bible, Jesus or Mary.

The evolution theory of the big bang and that life started from one cell or whatever it is is so unbelievable. That God made life makes more sense. With regards to the Bible and the story of creation, a friend told me that the 7 days that creation took place, in Hebrew can actually be read as being 7 unspecified periods of time. 1 day could have been a million years. That makes sense to me.

With regards to Darwin’s theory, that can be answered that God put in the little changes where needed. An animal or a plant cannot possibly change their genes on their own because they feel they would adapt better to an area. To me it’s obvious that God made the changes to help the animal, etc adapt better.

These are just my thoughts.
 
Evolution is not necessarily incompatible with Catholicism. The Bible is a set of books, not a single book. For this reason, many different literary genres were employed by the Sacred Writers. Some books of the Bible are history books (such as 1 and 2 Chronicles, 1 and 2 Kings, etc). But not all books are. Many feel that the Sacred Writer made use of religious symbolism when writing the opening chapters of Genesis. The creation story conveys an important message…but many feel that it was not meant to be taken as literal history. What was the Holy Spirit, through the Sacred Writer, conveying to us through these words? That God created the universe from nothing. That God ordered the universe and made it “good”. That God singled out man and gave him a soul. That man fell from grace and lost its special relationship with God. There are three main “theories” of creation that Christians subscribe to:
  1. Young Earth Creationism: According to adherents of this view, the book of Genesis was meant to be literal history. God created the earth 6000 (or so) years ago. A great flood wiped out animal life (except that on the ark) creating the fossil record (various “creation ministries” will give varying interpretations here).
  2. Progressive creation: God created the universe 14 billion years ago. Adherents of this view will argue that the theory of the big bang demonstrates that the universe had a beginning. Everything that has a beginning has a cause. Therefore they generally believe that God was the “cause”, the force behind the big bang, starting creation. God then, much later, created early unicellular life. As time went on, God created other species. God species at various times as we see them appear in the fossil record. God finally created man tens of thousands of years ago (or more recently, depending on the variation of this theory). By the way, an excellent book defending this theory is Lee Strobel’s The Case for a Creator. (Note: I do not necessarily agree with everything in this book. I am not fully sold on any of these three views yet, and Lee Strobel is a Protestant, and thus makes some errors in that regard).
  3. Theistic evolution: God created the universe 14 billion years ago. God then guided the natural processes of stellar evolution to ensure that our galaxy, our solar system, and our planet formed according to the necessary specifications. God then caused, in some way, life to arise on the planet, and guided it as it evolved through its various stages. Eventually man was sufficiently evolved. God set him aside and gave him an eternal soul, placing him above all the animals.
You may be interested to read: catholic.com/library/Adam_Eve_and_Evolution.asp

In Christ,
Tyler
 
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Zeke2517:
I’ve been doing a lot of thinking about my faith in god and the theory of evolution. While evolution has certain aspects that seem logical, I try to stand by my belief in god.
Truth cannot contradict truth. The things that scientists find in the universe are true. If God created the universe then those truths were created by God.
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Zeke2517:
I understand this is a very complicated issue to some, especially those with strong feelings towards the bible and god. While reading about evolution I find it increasingly more difficult to find sense in the bible.
The Bible is not a science textbook, it deals with morality, salvation etc. Those subjects are not part of science and neither contradict nor are contradicted by science.
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Zeke2517:
I question many aspects of the bible due to the overwhelming science there is to back up the claim on evolution.
Science in general, and evolution in particular, deal with immediate material causes. The Bible deals with ultimate spiritual causes. They are talking about things at different levels. A glass of water can be seen as something to quench your thirst or as the chemical oxygen dihydride in a container of melted silica. Very different ways of looking at the same thing. You are right in that the scientific evidence to back up evolution is overwhelming. That does impact on the more literal interpretations of Genesis, but it has no impact on less literal interpretations. God could have designed the universe in such a way that the human body would self-assemble from the ingredients provided. Evolution merely describes the process of self-assembly. There are many possible interpretations of Genesis which allow some form of theistic evolution.
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Zeke2517:
I have always been the type of person who can easily doubt a situation but this has got me very disturbed. The fact that I am doubting my own faith has me concerned.
You are doubting a literal interpretation of Genesis. I suggest that you change your interpretation of Genesis rather than change your faith. Some of the stories here may help:**asing your whole faith in Jesus Christ upon a presumption about the age of the earth is a poor foundation for faith.
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Zeke2517:
Is this a test of my faith by the lord?
Not a question I can answer.
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Zeke2517:
Has my education in science rendered me vulnerable to deception?
No. Does the Bible value ignorance or knowledge? Scientists can make mistakes, as can theologians. Science has built-in mechanisms to reduce mistakes to the minimum so the vast bulk of science is not deceptive.

rossum**
 
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rossum:
. You are right in that the scientific evidence to back up evolution is overwhelming.
This is hardly true. Virtually no knowledgable biologist really believes that life “evolved from chemicals” any more.
As one scientist wrote:
“if you look at the ‘simplest’ known cell, say a bacterium, it is acknowledged by the best microbiologists and biochemists that such cells are extremely complex, with self-diagnosis and repair systems, and incredibly complex mechanisms which are still not fully understood. People can spend their lifetime just studying the cell membrane; entire departments in universities study just the chemical ‘pumps’ that keep the integrity of the membrane.”
The idea that cells evolved from chemicals is so far fetched that even blind evolutionists don’t want to discuss it anymore.
 
rossum << You are right in that the scientific evidence to back up evolution is overwhelming. >>

dcdurel << This is hardly true. Virtually no knowledgable biologist really believes that life “evolved from chemicals” any more. >>

Common descent not origin of life:

“Common descent is a general descriptive theory that proposes to explain the origins of living organisms…Because it is so well supported scientifically, macroevolution is often called the ‘fact of evolution’ by biologists…the evidence and the conclusion are independent of any specific gradualistic explanatory mechanisms for the origin and evolution of macroevolutionary adaptations and variation. This is why scientists call universal common descent the ‘fact of evolution.’” (from Theobald’s Evidences, Nov 2002 summary)

“Biological evolution is not debated in the scientific community – organisms become new species through modification over time… ‘it simply has not been an issue for a century’ [citing Futuyma]…” (American Geological Institute and The Paleontological Society 2001 PDF Evolution and the Fossil Record)

“Evolution as a process that has always gone on in the history of the earth can be doubted only by those who are ignorant of the evidence or are resistant to evidence, owing to emotional blocks or to plain bigotry…There are no alternatives to evolution as history that can withstand critical examination.” (Theodosius Dobzhansky, "Nothing in Biology Makes Sense Except in the Light of Evolution" American Biology Teacher, March 1973)

“…there has been a confusion, partly deliberate, of the fact that organisms have evolved with theories about the detailed mechanics of the process. The facts of evolution are clear and are not disputed by any serious scientific worker…To deny evolution is to deny physics, chemistry, and astronomy, as well as biology.” (Richard Lewontin, March 1982, Introduction to Scientists Confront Creationism [W.W. Norton, 1983] )

“Far from being merely a speculative notion, as implied when someone says, ‘evolution is just a theory,’ the core concepts of evolution are well documented and well confirmed. Natural selection has been repeatedly demonstrated in both field and laboratory, and descent with modification is so well documented that scientists are justified in saying that evolution is true…” (Statement on Evolution from the Botanical Society of America, 2003)

“Eventually it was widely appreciated that the occurrence of evolution was supported by such an overwhelming amount of evidence that it could no longer be called a theory. Indeed, since it was as well supported by facts as was heliocentricity, evolution also had to be considered a fact, like heliocentricity…The evidence for evolution is now quite overwhelming. It is presented in great detail by Futuyma (1983, 1998), Ridley (1996), and Strickberger (1996)…” (Ernst Mayr, What Evolution Is, page 12-13)

“While there is little consensus among scientists about how the origin of this first microscopic life is to be explained, there is general agreement among them that the first organism dwelt on this planet about 3.5 - 4 billion years ago. Since it has been demonstrated that all living organisms on earth are genetically related, it is virtually certain that all living organisms have descended from this first organism. Converging evidence from many studies in the physical and biological sciences furnishes mounting support for some theory of evolution to account for the development and diversification of life on earth, while controversy continues over the pace and mechanisms of evolution.” (From the International Theological Commission, headed by Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, plenary sessions held in Rome 2000-2002, document published July 2004)

Phil P
 
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dcdurel:
This is hardly true.
You are wrong. The evidence for evolution is indeed overwhelming. The genetic makeup of populations does change over time and that is evolution. Every time a strain of bacteria becomes immune to an antibiotic, that is evolution. The vast majority of biologists accept evolution because the evidence is so overwhelming. Over 700 scientists called Steve support evolution. Since about 1% of the population is called Steve, that is equivalent to about 70,000 scientists who support evolution. You are wrong, and I have provided evidence to show it.
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dcdurel:
Virtually no knowledgable biologist really believes that life “evolved from chemicals” any more.
Firstly, life evolving from chemicals is abiogenesis, not evolution. Secondly, I will need evidence for your statement.
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dcdurel:
As one scientist wrote:
You jest surely! “one scientist” is not virtually all knowledgeable biologists. “One christian said that the Bible allowed him to rape a woman” (see here). That does not mean that “virtually all” Christians believe that the Bible condones rape, just one aberrant Christian does. You will need evidence of more biologists (your scientist is a biologist I hope) than just one. It would also help if you gave the name of the scientist and a reference for the quote - I prefer to check authorship and context personally.

rossum
 
Hundreds of works have been written dealing with evolution theory and human origins. Most fall into one of two categories: (1) those that embrace conventional natural science but propose either atheistic naturalism or a form of theistic evolution that rejects basic Christian beliefs, particularly the historical reality of Adam and Eve and Original Sin, or (2) those that try to defend basic Christian beliefs by embracing a young-Earth creationism whose scientific credentials are suspect. The approach I take in my own
Origin of the Human Species is to show in great detail exactly how the conventional theory of human evolution can be understood so as to be fully conformable to basic Christian beliefs, particularly those enunciated by the 1909 Biblical Commission findings. It is not sufficient to say that, in principle, evolution can fit with Scripture. We need to show that a plausible scenario can be developed by which this compatibility can occur.

Among the steps required are these: (1) We must show that man is essentially superior to lower animals, and that he is so by reason of intellective faculties not shared by brutes. (My own study of recent ape-language research reveals that lower primates do not possess such faculties. See my article in full at www.origin.youshoppe.com.) (2) we must demonstrate that man alone possesses a spiritual and immortal soul directly created by God alone. (3) We must show that Genesis’ patriarchal genealogies need not be continuous, and hence that human antiquity of great magnitude is possible. (4) We must show what criteria of intellective activity is needed to determine the advent of unequivocally intellective fossil evidence of human presence, so as to determine what primate population might contain the presence of Adam. (5) We must show that nothing in that population precludes the direct creation of a human intellective spiritual soul by God. (6) We must offer a plausable scenario for the actual creation of Adam and Eve which fits both the paleoanthropological and theological parameters.

At the same time, we must recall that the science of the distant past does not provide the kind of precision and certitude afforded by observable phenomena replicable in a modern laboratory. That is, if we ask what man was doing several hundred thousand years ago, the truth is that we do not know for sure because we were not there. Hence, it is wise not to wed one’s Catholic faith in Adam’s origins too tightly to any particular scientific theory which might later prove misleading or downright false. That is why my approach also entertains other possible scenarios by which Adam and Eve might remain fully credible – the fully explanation of which would exceed spatial limits here.

Dennis Bonnette
Professor of Philosophy (Retired)
Author, Origin of the Human Species
 
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Hitetlen:
Why would he test you? He already knows…

When reason and faith collide (as in your case) one of them has to go. The choice is yours. Best of luck in your decison making process.
Let’s take an example from most of a century ago. Science–astronomy and geology–has just proven that the universe is infinitely old, that the earth shows “no vestige of a beginning, no prospect of an end.” This assured result, taught to the public as an established fact, is in direct conflict with the teachings of the Catholic Church (and the rest of Christendom) which state that the universe had a distinct beginning. What’s the poor thinking Christian to do?
  • Liberian
 
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Zeke2517:
I have a hard time dealing with the fact that we were put here by god in our form now and science teaching that we have evolved from the apes. I’m sure god could have put us here and we evolved but it seems too unlikely.
Zeke,

There is nothing that I know of in the Bible that contradicts the idea that God took a few billion years and the process of evolution to create hominids and then one morning breathed a human soul into one of them.

If you want something that sounds unlikely, look at the Big Bang theory. I was explaining it one evening to my ten-year-old daughter and after about ten minutes of this she started laughing and said, “Do you really expect me to believe this?” The only reason it sounds plausible to the average person is because it has been repeated to him by authority figures so many times.
  • Liberian
 
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