EVOLUTION: what about this

[hecd2]

Just as before, you post a long, irrelevant text from the “organizer” and nothing from the participants.

If you find the opinion of the organiser of Altenberg (who was not just the organiser of the conference but one of the 16 participants) about the aims of the conference irrelevant than you have completely lost all credibility. There can hardly be a more authoritative figure with regard to the purposes and objectives of the conference, and he completely demolishes the sort of misrepresentation of the conference aims that you yourself have indulged in repeatedly on this forum.

Why do you do it? Do you really think that you can serve the interests of truth by deliberate misrepresentation?

Alec
evolutionpages.com

 

[buffalo]

The evangelists cohnstructed their gosples in the idiom of the times. Both they and Jesus inhabited a worled imbued with apocalyptic feeling. Naturally, the Jesus of the gospels will speak about eternal retribution. However, that is not the deeper theme of his message.

If it helps your spirituality to focus on a Christianity preoccupied with eternal damnation and retribution, I’m sure that’s fine. However, most 21st century Christians I know prefer to focus on the positive rather than the negative, and it is appropriate for theology to reemphasize that dimension of Christ;s message.

Sister Faustina’s Vision of Hell

"I, Sister Faustina Kowalska, by the order of God, have visited the Abysses of Hell so that I might tell souls about it and testify to its existence…the devils were full of hatred for me, but they had to obey me at the command of God, What I have written is but a pale shadow of the things I saw. But I noticed one thing: That most of the souls there are those who disbelieved that there is a hell." (Diary 741)

more…

 

[reggieM]

If you find the opinion of the organiser of Altenberg (who was not just the organiser of the conference but one of the 16 participants) about the aims of the conference irrelevant than you have completely lost all credibility.

You claimed that I had no credibility before. Now you claim that I “lost all credibility”. I couldn’t lose credibility if I didn’t have any. Therefore, I certainly must have had credibility before this. But you lied about saying that I had none.

There can hardly be a more authoritative figure with regard to the purposes and objectives of the conference, and he completely demolishes the sort of misrepresentation of the conference aims that you yourself have indulged in repeatedly on this forum.

I find it quite wonderful to see how frightened you are about the actual comments from the particpants. Those comments began to convince one of your own evolutionists here on CAF that there are some serious problems with Darwinism.

I’ll suggest that you continue to cover-up that information and simply point to the rantings of the “organizer”.

Do you really think that you can serve the interests of truth by deliberate misrepresentation?

Why do you continue to ask pointless questions?

 

[reggieM]

The priests in our parish preach about love, reconciliation and forgiveness, never about eternal retribution.

They must be quite frightened by Our Lord’s words in the Gospel itself.

 

[StAnastasia]

They must be quite frightened by Our Lord’s words in the Gospel itself.

Not at all – they just are not retribution obsessed! They are obsessed with love, recognition of sin, forgiveness, and reconciliation with God and the community.

 

[edwest2]

Only in the minds of the sex-obsessed!

Let’s see if there are some minor problems that don’t revolve around sex:

Global ecological breakdown
Widespread ethnic cleansings
Rapacious consumption of resources
Economic collapse
Grinding poverty in many parts of the world
Sea level rise threatening the very existence of coral atoll nations
Political corruption
Gross inequity between rich and poor
Financial greed on Wall Street
Idolatries of power

Here are ten problems that put sexuality in the shade any day, except in the minds of the sex-obsessed.

StAnastasia

Wall Street greed and the greed of the richest nation on earth.

Then there is the idolatry of the human mind, expressed here under the topic evolution.

Peace,
Ed

 

[rossum]

But I noticed one thing: That most of the souls there are those who disbelieved that there is a hell." (Diary 741)

Uncharacteristically liberal of you buffalo. Jews, Moslems, Hindus, Buddhists and many others all believe in Hell. If they are not in Hell then where might they be… ?

rossum

 

[StAnastasia]

Uncharacteristically liberal of you buffalo. Jews, Moslems, Hindus, Buddhists and many others all believe in Hell. If they are not in Hell then where might they be… ? rossum

rossum, I believe this could be the fallacy of denying the antecedent. Other religious believers could all end up in hell even if they believe in the place.

What I can’t quite wrap my Catholic theistic mind around is imagining a God who creates billions of people just to condemn them ultimately to hell. That piece from the Faustina hallucination about sinners writhing in the “spiritual fire lit by God’s anger” is bizarre beyond description – it sounds like a vision from an acid trip!.

 

[buffalo]

rossum, I believe this could be the fallacy of denying the antecedent. Other religious believers could all end up in hell even if they believe in the place.

What I can’t quite wrap my Catholic theistic mind around is imagining a God who creates billions of people just to condemn them ultimately to hell. That piece from the Faustina hallucination about sinners writhing in the “spiritual fire lit by God’s anger” is bizarre beyond description – it sounds like a vision from an acid trip!.

Jesus speaks of hell more often in the NT than anything else.

 

[Orogeny]

rossum, I believe this could be the fallacy of denying the antecedent. Other religious believers could all end up in hell even if they believe in the place.

What I can’t quite wrap my Catholic theistic mind around is imagining a God who creates billions of people just to condemn them ultimately to hell. That piece from the Faustina hallucination about sinners writhing in the “spiritual fire lit by God’s anger” is bizarre beyond description – it sounds like a vision from an acid trip!.

So you don’t believe in hell at all?

Peace

Tim

 

[buffalo]

Americans Think Hell Exists, But No One Goes There

…But now for the more astounding statistic: Of all those folks who still purport to believe in Hell, only one-half of 1% thinks that they could possibly be going there. That is to say, everyone is going to Heaven, and virtually no one will be in Hell. For all practical purposes, Hell might as well not exist.

more…

 

[rossum]

rossum, I believe this could be the fallacy of denying the antecedent. Other religious believers could all end up in hell even if they believe in the place.

However, the number of believers in hell is limited by the number of non-believers there - the non-believers have to be in the majority.

What I can’t quite wrap my Catholic theistic mind around is imagining a God who creates billions of people just to condemn them ultimately to hell. That piece from the Faustina hallucination about sinners writhing in the “spiritual fire lit by God’s anger” is bizarre beyond description – it sounds like a vision from an acid trip!.

While Catholicism (and the Orthodox) have retained more meditation techniques than Protestant Christianity generally has, there has still been some loss of knowledge about meditation and its effects. Buddhism seems to have retained more of this knowledge, or has just had more time to develop it. There are known illusions on the path of meditation that can trap the unwaryeople long for big thrills. Peak experiences. Some people come to Zen expecting that Enlightenment will be the Ultimate Peak Experience. The Mother of All Peak Experiences. But real enlightenment is the most ordinary of the ordinary. Once I had an amazing vision. I saw myself transported through time and space. Millions, no, billions, trillions, Godzillions of years passed. Not figuratively, but literally. Whizzed by. I found myself at the very rim of time and space, a vast giant being composed of the living minds and bodies of every thing that ever was. It was an incredibly moving experience. Exhilarating. I was high for weeks. Finally I told Nishijima Sensei about it. He said it was nonsense. Just my imagination. I can’t tell you how that made me feel. Imagination? This was as real an experience as any I’ve ever had. I just about cried. Later on that day I was eating a tangerine. I noticed how incredibly lovely a thing it was. So delicate. So amazingly orange. So very tasty. So I told Nishijima about that. That experience, he said, was enlightenment.

Source: Zen is Boring!
To me that sounds a lot like many of the “Visions of God” found in Christian (both Catholic and Protestant) literature. The Catholic Church has wisely chosen to retain control over such private visions; the Protestants less so.

You are right not to trust such private visions, unless thay have been validated by a qualified expert. As a rule of thumb, anything that is too flashy is suspect; better is something quieter such as eating a tangerine or Thomas Merton at Polonnaruwa.

rossum

 

[buffalo]

rossum, I believe this could be the fallacy of denying the antecedent. Other religious believers could all end up in hell even if they believe in the place.

What I can’t quite wrap my Catholic theistic mind around is imagining a God who creates billions of people just to condemn them ultimately to hell. That piece from the Faustina hallucination about sinners writhing in the “spiritual fire lit by God’s anger” is bizarre beyond description – it sounds like a vision from an acid trip!.

First off, you claim you do not want to be a mindless adherent that cannot think for himself. Well you have your wish via free will. Otherwise you would be a robot.

Second - God does not condemn people to hell, they do it to themselves.

Third - Faustina is a Saint of the Church. She was a mystic. Calling her vision a hallucination is another strike against you.

 

[reggieM]

Not at all – they just are not retribution obsessed! They are obsessed with love, recognition of sin, forgiveness, and reconciliation with God and the community.

Ok, you stated that your priests “never [preach] about eternal retribution”. Apparently, even if they only mentioned it one time they would be “retribution obsessed”?

On the contrary, this blatant denial and avoidance of the difficult matters of the Gospel indicates that they are “obsessed” indeed. Certainly, they’re not reflecting the teaching of Christ. They avoid the teaching on Hell because they’re frightened by it and they want to manipulate their congregation by filtering out the harder sayings that Jesus taught.

The question stands – do those priests believe that Hell exists? They “never” preach about it. Do they believe Satan exists?

The question can be directed to you also, as Orogeny asked. Do you believe that Hell exists at all?

 

[reggieM]

Third - Faustina is a Saint of the Church. She was a mystic. Calling her vision a hallucination is another strike against you.

Right. It’s the subjective judgement of a layman versus the teaching of the universal Church. That is basically the liberal-dissenting Catholic position. Why not deny any number of defined dogmas on the same basis? The apostles were “hallucinating” when they witnessed the Transfiguration, etc, etc.

 

[reggieM]

To me that sounds a lot like many of the “Visions of God” found in Christian (both Catholic and Protestant) literature. The Catholic Church has wisely chosen to retain control over such private visions; the Protestants less so.

A significant difference is that visions and private revelations in the Catholic sphere are directed and initiated by “the Other”. They’re not the result of a meditative technique (although they can arrive through that technique as the believer prepares to see or hear God). Catholic mystics receive God’s presence as a voice or vision that breaks through the barriers we have. This is not something generated by the individual. Angels and saints speak to Catholic mystics. St. Faustina’s Diary is a classic of spirituality that shows that kind of divine communication.

You are right not to trust such private visions, unless thay have been validated by a qualified expert. As a rule of thumb, anything that is too flashy is suspect; better is something quieter …

That is compatible with the advice given by Catholic spiritual teachers also. Private visions are held suspect and must be tested rigorously to prove if they’re genuine.

 

[Other_Eric]

First off, you claim you do not want to be a mindless adherent that cannot think for himself. Well you have your wish via free will. Otherwise you would be a robot.

Second - God does not condemn people to hell, they do it to themselves.

Third - Faustina is a Saint of the Church. She was a mystic. Calling her vision a hallucination is another strike against you.

While I am in agreement with you in broad terms, about one thing we must be careful: though Faustina is a saint and a mystic, there is no requirement to submit one’s will or intellect to her private revelations. The failure to do so can therefore not count as a strike against anyone.

 

[StAnastasia]

So you don’t believe in hell at all?
Peace
Tim

Did I say that?

 

[StAnastasia]

The question stands – do those priests believe that Hell exists? They “never” preach about it. Do they believe Satan exists?

I haven’t asked the pastor’s and associate’s positions on hell, but I shall when I next have a chance. I suspect they are more intent on preaching the good news of redemption than on shouting fire and brimstone sermons on hell, damnation, fire and torment, which would just turn off the congregation. Perhaps I could suggest some homilies on hell delivered in a more cheery vein.

I’ve never been a fan of the wild excesses of Catholic imagination, like Faustina or like Mel Gibson’s snuff film about Jesus. I prefer a more constructive, life-affirming spirituality. That’s not to say that a hell-obsessed spirituality is wrong; in deed, if you find it helpful for your prayer life, that’s great!

 

[ricmat]

I haven’t asked the pastor’s and associate’s positions on hell, but I shall when I next have a chance. I suspect they are more intent on preaching the good news of redemption than on shouting fire and brimstone sermons on hell, damnation, fire and torment, which would just turn off the congregation. Perhaps I could suggest some homilies on hell delivered in a more cheery vein.

I’ve never been a fan of the wild excesses of Catholic imagination, like Faustina or like Mel Gibson’s snuff film about Jesus. I prefer a more constructive, life-affirming spirituality. That’s not to say that a hell-obsessed spirituality is wrong; in deed, if you find it helpful for your prayer life, that’s great!

My bold and underline above.

That about sums it up. People want to have their ears tickled rather than hear the truth.

St. Faustina’s diary is worth reading. Mel Gibson’s, probably not.