EVOLUTION: what about this

  • Thread starter Thread starter Rogerteder
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
It does not appear possible to add new, beneficial and functional information on the macro level. The fruit fly experiment only took the genetic material available and mixed it up but it did not add new information.

Peace,
Ed
 
Do you teach? Where? What is you Bishops name?
I would hate to see someone pretending to be a theologian on a Catholic site. The potential for abuse of trust is far too high. Validation is pretty simple … which diocese and which institution?
 
It does not appear possible to add new, beneficial and functional information on the macro level. The fruit fly experiment only took the genetic material available and mixed it up but it did not add new information.Peace,Ed
Ed, I’ll defer to Alec on this one, as he is the biologist, and would understand claims about information theory.

StAnastasia
 
I would hate to see someone pretending to be a theologian on a Catholic site. The potential for abuse of trust is far too high. Validation is pretty simple … which diocese and which institution?
Reggie, are you fundamentally not interested in theology?
 
Reggie, are you fundamentally not interested in theology?
I’m not interested in heretical or bogus Catholicism – and that’s what passes for “theology” in our dying, secularized Catholic institutions of higher learning.

By their fruits you will know them. One quick look at the loss of vocations found everywhere the anti-traditional, compromised “theology” is spread is enough to see it quite clearly.

Thanks to Pope Benedict, more of these pseudo-Catholic teachers are being shut down every year, and they will no longer be able to spread their poison among the faithful.

But we still have a few more to go … with patience and hope.
 
Reggie, are you fundamentally not interested in theology?
By the way, your question had nothing to do with my post (except, yet again, to cover-up your claimed status in the Church).

People come on these webboards pretending to be Catholic clergy and theologians all the time. There are all sorts of frauds and con-artists out there.

When I notice the mockery shown to the belief of the faithful, I’m suspicious.

Ok, you claim to be a theologian but can’t/won’t reveal the name of your diocese.

– at the same time, I see some evidence that you are what you say you are – especially in the comments dripping with contempt for the faith that many of us cherish. I’ve seen it quite often. They must have mass-produced you guys somewhere.
 
Thanks to Pope Benedict, more of these pseudo-Catholic teachers are being shut down every year, and they will no longer be able to spread their poison among the faithful.
I’m not sure why you regard discussing theology in light of the contemporary world view as “poison.” By that definition, St. Thomas Aquinas was engaged in “spreading poison among the faithful” in the thirteenth century, as he subverted the Platonism in favor of the new found Aristotelianism.
 
Please don’t miss my previous post.

St. Thomas was “dialoguing” with the 4th century BC. He was also a canonized saint (who referred to his intellectual work as “so much straw”). He fully understood the relative value of human inquiry versus the experience of God in the Catholic spiritual life.
 
I’m not sure why you regard discussing theology in light of the contemporary world view as “poison.” By that definition, St. Thomas Aquinas was engaged in “spreading poison among the faithful” in the thirteenth century, as he subverted the Platonism in favor of the new found Aristotelianism.
When you become a Doctor of the Church, please let us know.
 
– at the same time, I see some evidence that you are what you say you are – especially in the comments dripping with contempt for the faith that many of us cherish. I’ve seen it quite often. They must have mass-produced you guys somewhere.
I cherish the same faith. But you want to keep the faith at 1850 (pre-evolution), while I want the same faith to thrive in 2009. I agree that the hostility to Catholicism on the part of the secular world is disturbing, and a lot of this hostility is based on prejudice and ignorance (Dawkins, et al.)

On the other hand, when the secular world sees Catholics rejecting modern science in favor of the scientific worldview of 1850, it is not surprising that they should react with contempt. Some people bring into Catholicism (when they convert) Protestant Fundamentalist views about science and scripture tht have never bound Catholics.

StAnastasia
 
I’m not sure why you regard discussing theology in light of the contemporary world view as “poison.” By that definition, St. Thomas Aquinas was engaged in “spreading poison among the faithful” in the thirteenth century, as he subverted the Platonism in favor of the new found Aristotelianism.
When theologians are condemned by the Holy See for teaching errors, we’re on good grounds in referring to them as “spreading poison”. I would like to see condemned teachers like Frs. Curran or Kung recant their errors – they could still become saints that way.
 
St. Thomas was “dialoguing” with the 4th century BC. He was also a canonized saint (who referred to his intellectual work as “so much straw”). He fully understood the relative value of human inquiry versus the experience of God in the Catholic spiritual life.
Thomas was dialoguing with the Platonism that had served as the metaphysical foundation of Catholic theology since the first century. Aristotelianism came in as a breath of fresh air in the twelfth and thirteenth centuries, and St. Thomas and others adopted it with alacrity.

All philosophies and worldviews are challenged eventually, and Aristotelianism began to break down in the sixteenth and seventeenth century, until it no longer served as a viable underpinning for the theological endeavor. Theology has since then been in constant dialogue with the changing worldview, as it is today.

StAnastasia
 
When theologians are condemned by the Holy See for teaching errors, we’re on good grounds in referring to them as “spreading poison”. I would like to see condemned teachers like Frs. Curran or Kung recant their errors – they could still become saints that way.
Perhaps they will. Kung and Ratzinger had a meeting together.
 
All philosophies and worldviews are challenged eventually…
snip
…Theology has since then been in constant dialogue with the changing worldview, as it is today.
Perhaps you are referring to a very limited scope of things when you say “philosophies” and “worldview”. But in the general case, your statement seems to indicate that Theology is somehow a Democracy. If the people vote for God to be X, then God is X (because X is currently the in-vogue worldview of God).

The dialogue Theology should be having with the “changing worldview as it is today” should be to tell the people where that worldview is wrong, rather than change Theology to accommodate it. In terms of morals, we cannot define right and wrong, no matter what the worldview thinks.
 
It does not appear possible to add new, beneficial and functional information on the macro level.
Whatever may appear, it is possible. You made three three points: new, beneficial, functional.

1 New

Start with a piece of DNA: GATTACA

Duplicate it: GATTACA GATTACA

Mutate one copy: GATGACA GATTACA

The final state has increased the amount of information in the genome measured both as Shannon information and as Kolmogorov information. We can observe gene duplications in nature and in the laboratory. We have a number of them in our own genomes. We can observe point mutations in nature and in the laboratory. We can observe point mutations in duplicated genes in our own genomes - we have many different globin genes: myoglobin, haemoglobin-alpha, haemoglobin-beta and the various foetal haemoglobins. All of these different globing were derived by just the process above, along with a number of broken globin pseudogenes.

3 Functional

I will deal with functional before beneficial because all beneficial genes must be functional by definition, but not all functional genes must be beneficial. Most mutations are neutral, they have no effect on our phenotype at all. Some mutations are functional but neutral - for example it is probable that the genes for eye colour are selectively neutral. They have a function but they are not beneficial.

There are many functional mutations, for example the various responses to malaria in humans. Many of these are new. There are also mutations which provide some resistance to HIV, again these mutations are functional.

2 Beneficial

A new mutation may be both functional and beneficial, for example the Apolipoprotein AI-Milano mutation which protects aganst chloresterol in the Western diet and which arose within the last 300 years in North Italy: see A Rare Protein Mutation Offers New Hope for Heart Disease Patients.

In malarial areas the anti-malaria mutations such as Hb-S and Hb-C are beneficial. The various anti-HIV mutations are also beneficial. The Native Americans were denied the benefits of the anti-smallpox mutations posessed by the European settlers; those mutations were beneficial for some but not for others, indirectly.

In summary new information can be added to genomes. The new information can be functional and the new information can be beneficial.
The fruit fly experiment only took the genetic material available and mixed it up but it did not add new information.
I spent a whole five minutes looking at a blade of grass and it didn’t grow at all! It does not appear possible for grass to grow.

Don’t use fruit flies, use bacteria. They can evolve resistance within weeks, see the the Luria-Delbrück experiment. Alternatively speed up the mutation rate by using a radioactive source, then you will see new and functional (though usually not beneficial) information.

rossum
 
I cherish the same faith. But you want to keep the faith at 1850 (pre-evolution), while I want the same faith to thrive in 2009. I agree that the hostility to Catholicism on the part of the secular world is disturbing, and a lot of this hostility is based on prejudice and ignorance (Dawkins, et al.)

On the other hand, when the secular world sees Catholics rejecting modern science in favor of the scientific worldview of 1850, it is not surprising that they should react with contempt. Some people bring into Catholicism (when they convert) Protestant Fundamentalist views about science and scripture tht have never bound Catholics.

StAnastasia
And what does the Church say about the secular world? There is no ignorance involved. None. People like Sam Harris are fully informed when they speak of “the alien hiss of religious lunacy.” It’s their scientific minds that have told them there is no invisible man in the sky. It is their own imagination that tells them man invented god.

The Bible speaks very clearly about this. Their hearts are darkened and they are filled with vain imaginings. This is not a problem of the intellect but one of the heart.

In the 1850s, most scientists were Christians, now, most leading scientists reject God. What Catholics should object to is atheistic evolution (which is mentioned on the Library of this site). Samuel Morse, inventor of the telegraph, said: “What hath God wrought?” They openly acknowledged God.

Spend a few minutes listening to PZ Myers on youtube. He’ll tell you how science is corrosive to religious belief. What was the purpose of science again?

Cardinal Schoenborn has written that scientism, the belief that our senses are the only way to explore and understand reality, must be overcome. I agree.

Peace,
Ed
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top