EVOLUTION: what about this

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The Vexing Eye
By: David Berlinski
Commentary
February 12, 2003

The following is an excerpt from David Berlinski’s article "Has Darwin Met His Match? (Commentary, December 1, 2002).

IN 1994, Dan E. Nilsson and Suzanne Pilger published a paper in the Proceedings of the Royal Society entitled, *“A Pessimistic Estimate of the Time Required for an Eye to Evolve.” *By “pessimistic,” they meant an estimate that, if anything, exaggerated the length of time required for the eye’s evolution. Even so, their conclusions were remarkable. “A light-sensitive patch,” they wrote, “will gradually turn into a focused-lens eye” in only a few hundred thousand years.

Darwin had himself been troubled by the existence of the mammalian eye, whose evolution by random mutation and natural selection has always seemed difficult to imagine. Nilsson and Pilger’s paper provided a welcome redemptive note. A few hundred thousand years and the job would be done. Authors have waited longer for their royalty checks.

As Nilsson and Pilger’s paper gained currency, it amassed content it did not actually possess. Biologists who failed to read what Nilsson and Pilger had written–the great majority, apparently–assumed that they had constructed a computer simulation of the eye’s evolution, a program that could frog-march those light-sensitive cells all the way to a functioning eye using nothing more than random variation and natural selection. (2) This would have been an impressive and important achievement, a vivid demonstration that Darwinian principles can create simulated biological artifacts.

But no such demonstration has been achieved, and none is in prospect. Nilsson and Pilger’s computer simulation is a myth. In a private communication, Nilsson has indicated to me that the requisite simulation is in preparation; his assurances are a part of that large and generous family of promises of which “your check is in the mail” may be the outstanding example.

What Nilsson and Pilger in fact described was the evolution not of an eye but of an eyeball, and they described it using ordinary back-of-the envelope calculations. Far from demonstrating the emergence of a complicated biological structure, what they succeeded in showing was simply that an imaginary population of light-sensitive cells could be flogged relentlessly up a simple adaptive peak, a point never at issue because never in doubt.

Despite a good deal of research conducted over the last twenty years, the mammalian visual system is still poorly understood, and in large measure not understood at all. The eye acts as a focusing lens and as a transducer, changing visual signals to electrical ones. Within the brain and nervous system, complicated algorithms must come into play before such signals may be interpreted. And no theory has anything whatsoever of interest to say about the fact that the visual system terminates its activities in a visual experience, an episode of consciousness. We cannot characterize the most obvious fact about sight–that it involves seeing something.
 
"Since it has been demonstrated that all living organisms on earth are genetically related,
Strange. I think what he meant is that it can be demonstrated that since all life is DNA based, that there is a common Creator.
 
**Investigating Evolution in Rome

**by Maciej Giertych

At the end of October and the beginning of November, the Pontifical Academy of Sciences met in Rome to discuss the theory of evolution. The official topic under discussion was “Scientific insights into the evolution of the universe and of life.” This was in connection with the Darwinian Year, on the occasion of the 200 anniversary of his birthday and the 150th anniversary of the publication of the book On the Origin of Species. When I heard about this session I searched out addresses of all the members of the Pontifical Academy of Sciences (among them about one-third are Nobel prize laureates) and sent them my booklet “Teaching on evolution in European schools” together with a cover letter in which I explained who I am and I expressed the hope that the enclosed booklet would prove useful to them in connection with the session they were about to participate in.
A few of the academicians sent me a non-committal thank you letter; however the Chancellor of the Academy, Bishop Marcelo Sánchez Sorondo wrote a cordial, longer letter. I responded asking him whether any part of the proceedings would be open to the public and if not whether it would be possible to obtain an invitation to some part of it. Following that I received a phone call from my brother Fr. Wojciech Giertych, Theologian of the Papal Household, with the information that Bishop Sánchez Sorondo had called him and told him that I would not receive a reply to my letter, but that I could come and sit in on the session as an observer, but without the right to speak. And thus I became a participant in the October 31-November 4 session of the Pontifical Academy of Sciences. Unfortunately I was unable to participate in the official discussions. However, I used all the intervals for conversations with the participants and I made my booklet available in English to all who were interested. English was the primary language throughout the conference. About 40 copies were picked up.
My observations from this extraordinary experience are quite disturbing. All the academicians are scientists of the highest level and the papers presented were truly of top quality. However, unfortunately many of the academicians are atheists. The remainder are supporters of the theory of evolution but allow for the possibility of God’s influence on its course. The applause after the presentations of atheists was much more enthusiastic than after the speeches of believers. In all the discussions after the papers the main confrontation was between atheists and theists on whether God is necessary or redundant in explaining evolutionary processes. Among the speakers and polemists there was not a single critic of the theory of evolution.

more…
 
It’s a very good thing to keep up with “the literature”. The great thing about evolutionary theory is that “evidence” is only limited by the constraints of one’s own imagination.
Scare quotes do not make an argument. You asked me a question and I gave an answer - less than 250,000 years. If you have a problen with the actual calculation in the Nilsson and Pelger paper then please say so. The rest of what you posted is peripheral to the actual mathematical content of the paper.

You quote from the abstract:Theoretical considerations of eye design allow us to find routes along which the optical structures of eyes may have evolved. If selection constantly favours an increase in the amount of detectable spatial information, a light-sensitive patch will gradually turn into a focused lens eye through continuous small improvements of design. An upper limit for the number of generations required for the complete transformation can be calculated with a minimum of assumptions. Even with a consistently pessimistic approach the time required becomes amazingly short: only a few hundred thousand years.
I assume that the bolding is yours since it is not present in the original which you referenced.

Since we cannot now know the exact path of the evolution it is correct to say “routes along which the optical structures of eyes may have evolved.” The “may” refers backwards to the routes, not forwards as implied by your bolding of only part of the sentence. If you consider a different route more likely then you are at liberty to repeat the calculations using your own proposed route.

The continuous selection is required to drive evolution - in the absence of selection a cave-fish would not evolve eyes. The paper was loooking at the evolution of an eye so situations like a cave-fish with no selection, were not studied.

Next comes the unattributed piece about Dr. Erwin, possibly from “Commentary” judging by the internal reference. I am aware that Dawkins misdescribed the Nilsson and Pelger paper as a “computer simulation” rather than a “mathematical simulation” as he should have. This misdescription has no effect on the correctness of the paper. If a Christian misquotes the Bible does that invalidate the contents of the Bible? Of course not, and neither does Dawkins’ misdescription of this paper invalidate its results. This point is irrelevant to the correctness of the paper.

Your second post includes a long piece from David Berlinksi. He repeats the irrelevant misdescription by Dawkins. Berlinski goes on to talk about an “imaginary population of light sensitive cells”. There are good examples in nature of animals with just such a primitive array of light sensitive cells as Nilsson and Pelger started with; the lancelet (aka amphioxus) is a good example, and being a cephalochordate is a good model for the kind of organism that vertebrates evolved from. There are single celled algae and bacteria that are light sensitive. Sensitivity to light is common and is not a difficulty for a starting point. There are many real populations of light sensitive cells, enough to destroy this attempted criticism by Dr Berlinski.

rossum
 
Since we cannot now know the exact path of the evolution …
We do not know.
I am aware that Dawkins misdescribed the Nilsson and Pelger paper as a “computer simulation” rather than a “mathematical simulation” as he should have. This misdescription has no effect on the correctness of the paper.
It helps us to recognize how things get misdescribed in favor of the desired, but unwarranted, conclusion.
If a Christian misquotes the Bible does that invalidate the contents of the Bible?
It invalidates the accuracy of the Christian and brings into question other claims and conclusions that are offered.
Of course not, and neither does Dawkins’ misdescription of this paper invalidate its results. This point is irrelevant to the correctness of the paper.
It is relevent to how the paper is presented, but more importantly, that a computer simulation was the expected and more convincing method.
There are single celled algae and bacteria that are light sensitive. Sensitivity to light is common and is not a difficulty for a starting point. There are many real populations of light sensitive cells, enough to destroy this attempted criticism by Dr Berlinski.
Again, there are no real evolutionary paths to eyesight from those cells, and that is what the “imaginary” comment was directed to. There is a considerable difference between various starting points – light sensitive cells in an algae cell or those in a more developed organism. The mathematics (apparently, I haven’t read it) is based on an imagined starting point and not a real organism.

Beyond that, the more important criticism (as I saw it) is that the path to the development of an eyeball is far from showing the evolution of a functioning eye (that the title claims) because the eye is dependent on mental processes in order for it to provide sight.
 
That is fewer than a very large number! Yes, very impressive. 😉
Yes. Much more impressive than StAnastasia’s “fewer than 100”.

Or is it?

Ooops, I guess it means the same thing. Darn 😃

But it sure looks impressive.
 
The mathematics (apparently, I haven’t read it) is based on an imagined starting point and not a real organism.
I suggest that you read up on the anatomy of the lancelet (Branchiostoma lanceolatum), also known as amphioxus. That is the organism on which Nilsson amd Pelger appear to have based their starting point. Its “eye” is a flat bed of light-sensitive cells attached by nerves to a bump at the front of its dorsal nerve cord - a lancelet cannot be said to have a ‘brain’ as such. The lancelet is a cephalochordate and so very probably resembles our early ancestors - it has a brain case and a dorsal nerve cord but has not yet evolved a spine. It is very close to the origin of the vertebrates.
Beyond that, the more important criticism (as I saw it) is that the path to the development of an eyeball is far from showing the evolution of a functioning eye (that the title claims) because the eye is dependent on mental processes in order for it to provide sight.
A lancelet can see and react to light. A hagfish can see and react to light. A trout can see and react to light. A lungfish can see and react to light. A salamander can see and react to light. A lizard can see and react to light. A lemur can see and react to light. A chimpanzee can see and react to light. A human can see and react to light. Where along that line of development do “mental processes” become significant. For extra credit explain why I chose those particular animals.

rossum
 
Where along that line of development do “mental processes” become significant. For extra credit explain why I chose those particular animals.rossum
Because they have all at some point been sauteed in garlic and butter?
 
As a professional writer, part of my job is to create plausible realities. Evolution is a simple story element with one attribute: given enough time, anything is possible. This amounts to giving evolution the power of god. But evolution has no intelligence and it cannot, therefore, plan ahead. Whatever randon mutations spit out, it selects, but what is it selecting? It doesn’t know or care.

Let’s look at life. Using a simple cell, its attributes are: ability to effectively interact with its environment to provide itself with food/energy, ability to avoid things/circumstance that might kill it, and the ability to reproduce.

The cell is designed. It is not possible to have function without it. And a design without a designer is, indeed, a neat trick, or more precisely, an interesting belief.

I am a cell that reproduces asexually. Even though I have no brain, I can determine a particle floating past is food and another similar particle, is not. I avoid coming into contact with spots that are too cold or too hot.

But let’s back up. Was my type of “food” in existence before I was? How is that possible?

Now, I am a bee. How do I know that those colorful things out there are flowers? How do I know how to interact with them? Were flowers waiting around for me to appear? Why does my existence revolve around them?

It is obvious that life designed to live on the same planet would have genetic parts in common.

Did a lawnmower evolve into a motorcycle and then into a car? The engines are similar.

It is obvious that evolution is primarily taking observations and making them fit a predetermined worldview. How can anyone simply say that X mutation went from here to there in 200,000 years? This is storytelling, not science.

These scientists seem to forget about supposed changes in the earth’s atmosphere, comet strikes and other things that other scientists say supposedly happened in the past. The organisms were surrounding by a hostile environment that could burn, flood, eat or starve them out of existence. Instead, the impression is given that evolution just happened.

And the dates for the rocks. I’m very, very skeptical.

Peace,
Ed
 
As a professional writer, part of my job is to create plausible realities. Evolution is a simple story element with one attribute: given enough time, anything is possible. This amounts to giving evolution the power of god. But evolution has no intelligence and it cannot, therefore, plan ahead. Whatever randon mutations spit out, it selects, but what is it selecting? It doesn’t know or care.

Let’s look at life. Using a simple cell, its attributes are: ability to effectively interact with its environment to provide itself with food/energy, ability to avoid things/circumstance that might kill it, and the ability to reproduce.

The cell is designed. It is not possible to have function without it. And a design without a designer is, indeed, a neat trick, or more precisely, an interesting belief.

I am a cell that reproduces asexually. Even though I have no brain, I can determine a particle floating past is food and another similar particle, is not. I avoid coming into contact with spots that are too cold or too hot.

But let’s back up. Was my type of “food” in existence before I was? How is that possible?

Now, I am a bee. How do I know that those colorful things out there are flowers? How do I know how to interact with them? Were flowers waiting around for me to appear? Why does my existence revolve around them?

It is obvious that life designed to live on the same planet would have genetic parts in common.

Did a lawnmower evolve into a motorcycle and then into a car? The engines are similar.

It is obvious that evolution is primarily taking observations and making them fit a predetermined worldview. How can anyone simply say that X mutation went from here to there in 200,000 years? This is storytelling, not science.

These scientists seem to forget about supposed changes in the earth’s atmosphere, comet strikes and other things that other scientists say supposedly happened in the past. The organisms were surrounding by a hostile environment that could burn, flood, eat or starve them out of existence. Instead, the impression is given that evolution just happened.

And the dates for the rocks. I’m very, very skeptical.

Peace,
Ed
OK Ed, you are a professional writer who doesn’t like science. That’s OK. We will go forward without you.
 
That is the best you can do? A dismissive response?

In order to write plausible science-fiction, I read a great deal of actual scientific and historical texts. Evolution does not appear to be possible as advertised, that’s all I’m saying.

Peace,
Ed
 
That is the best you can do? A dismissive response?
Because all you deserve is a dismissive response. Criticising a caricature of a scientific idea is not the same as criticising a real scientific idea. If the best you can do is to suggest that bacteria survive on particles of what you obviously think must be organic “food” floating past them, then, I am afraid, you deserve to be dismissed out of hand, because you have so little respect for science that you can’t be bothered to learn any in order to criticise it. Look up autotrophs, photoautotrophs, lithotrophs and chemoautotrophs. Look up deep ocean vent bacteria. Look up Desulfovibrio vulgaris, an iron-eating bacterium.
In order to write plausible science-fiction, I read a great deal of actual scientific and historical texts.
Really? Do you write plausible science fiction? You certainly hide your reading of scientific texts under a bushel. Where can we buy your science fiction books? I’d say, from what I’ve seen, that you are quite incapable of writing plausible science fiction, because it is obvious from every post that you write that you don’t know any science.
Evolution does not appear to be possible as advertised, that’s all I’m saying.
Your opinion on this will only be significant when you learn some science and replace your arguments from personal incredulity with arguments based on real science. I am not hopeful that you will, not because I think you are incapable of learning a little science, but because you have not shown the slightest inclination to do so in all the time I have been reading your posts. And that includes your dismissal without evidence for the co-evolution of flowering plants and fertilising insects, and the radio-dating of geological strata, none of which are based on any better evidence than your nonsense about bacteria and archaea not having anything yummy to eat.

As Namesake says, scientists don’t need to answer uninformed criticism. Science will go ahead with or without your approval.

Alec
evolutionpages.com
 
A lancelet can see and react to light. A hagfish can see and react to light. A trout can see and react to light. A lungfish can see and react to light. A salamander can see and react to light. A lizard can see and react to light. A lemur can see and react to light. A chimpanzee can see and react to light.
rossum
From humanistperspectives.org/issue154/ten_things_to_remember.html

"If life was designed, an idiot did it. This is, of course, an exaggeration, but it serves to make a point: for every example of what looks like beautiful design, you can find dozens more examples of very poor design.

"The human eyeball is an engineering mess. Heart attacks and cancer exist because they occur principally after we have passed on our genes and so these problems are not selected out. Yet these and countless other inefficiencies could be easily eliminated by a moderately-intelligent designer. The designer didn’t eliminate them, so either the designer has unknowable motives, or the designer doesn’t exist.

"If the designer has unknowable motives, then you can’t use designer motives to argue for the designer’s existence (see number 6).

“This should not diminish our wonder at the marvel of life, but rather increase it. Survival is the imperative, and species will find their ways to it through astonishing paths.”
 
:We disagree about a few things. But your response above was a real zinger!
Thanks, ricmat. Except I suppose we shouldn’t laugh at the culinary inclusion of humans, sadly though that has been true at times and in various cultures.
 
From humanistperspectives.org/issue154/ten_things_to_remember.html

"If life was designed, an idiot did it. This is, of course, an exaggeration, but it serves to make a point: for every example of what looks like beautiful design, you can find dozens more examples of very poor design.

"The human eyeball is an engineering mess. Heart attacks and cancer exist because they occur principally after we have passed on our genes and so these problems are not selected out. Yet these and countless other inefficiencies could be easily eliminated by a moderately-intelligent designer. The designer didn’t eliminate them, so either the designer has unknowable motives, or the designer doesn’t exist.

"If the designer has unknowable motives, then you can’t use designer motives to argue for the designer’s existence (see number 6).

“This should not diminish our wonder at the marvel of life, but rather increase it. Survival is the imperative, and species will find their ways to it through astonishing paths.”
What kind of designer designed ichneumon wasps?
 
That is the best you can do? A dismissive response?

In order to write plausible science-fiction, I read a great deal of actual scientific and historical texts. Evolution does not appear to be possible as advertised, that’s all I’m saying.
You can read scientific and historical texts, and hopefully scientific papers as well, but do you understand them?

I mean, can you critically evaluate scientific publications regarding the materials and methods, not just the results and conclusions? The key to evaluating scientific publications is the materials and methods. That requires a fairly significant level of sophistication beyond the layman’s level. Can you do that?
 
Because all you deserve is a dismissive response. Criticising a caricature of a scientific idea is not the same as criticising a real scientific idea. If the best you can do is to suggest that bacteria survive on particles of what you obviously think must be organic “food” floating past them, then, I am afraid, you deserve to be dismissed out of hand, because you have so little respect for science that you can’t be bothered to learn any in order to criticise it. Look up autotrophs, photoautotrophs, lithotrophs and chemoautotrophs. Look up deep ocean vent bacteria. Look up Desulfovibrio vulgaris, an iron-eating bacterium.

Really? Do you write plausible science fiction? You certainly hide your reading of scientific texts under a bushel. Where can we buy your science fiction books? I’d say, from what I’ve seen, that you are quite incapable of writing plausible science fiction, because it is obvious from every post that you write that you don’t know any science. Your opinion on this will only be significant when you learn some science and replace your arguments from personal incredulity with arguments based on real science. I am not hopeful that you will, not because I think you are incapable of learning a little science, but because you have not shown the slightest inclination to do so in all the time I have been reading your posts. And that includes your dismissal without evidence for the co-evolution of flowering plants and fertilising insects, and the radio-dating of geological strata, none of which are based on any better evidence than your nonsense about bacteria and archaea not having anything yummy to eat.

As Namesake says, scientists don’t need to answer uninformed criticism. Science will go ahead with or without your approval.

Alec
evolutionpages.com
You cannot refer to science as an actual object. It is only the work of human beings. Regardless of what I say, the Catholic Church has a very definite view of science that it passes on to the faithful. It also defines a relationship between faith and science that describes the two as complementary. The Catholic Church will continue with this regardless of what anyone says.

Peace,
Ed
 
You cannot refer to science as an actual object. It is only the work of human beings.
Some of us think it is the work of God.
Regardless of what I say, the Catholic Church has a very definite view of science that it passes on to the faithful. It also defines a relationship between faith and science that describes the two as complementary. The Catholic Church will continue with this regardless of what anyone says.
That science and the Church are complimentary has never been debated on this forum. I think you made that idea up in your mind.
 
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