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MindOverMatter
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What does the church say about it?
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buffalo
Guest
The constant teachings and understanding has been well established here. Is that what you are asking? or current musings?What does the church say about it?
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c659smith
Guest
gravity is scientific fact —Evolution is scientific maybe.Evolution is an explanation of biological diversity, just as gravity is an explanation of why things fall down.
You can not get any reputable scientist to state that evolution is a fact. you may get possibility or probability but not fact.
Life forms may adapt and change to their enviroment but these are minor changes not a fish bocoming man.
If evolution was an on going fact then why has the ape not fully changed rather than go extinct.
Where are the new species of mammals since the last 7ooo years.
How can cells change–All creations have different cells and the motors that run them.
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edwest2
Guest
“biological diversity”? Quoting Pope Benedict: “We are not haphazard mistakes.”Evolution is an explanation of biological diversity, just as gravity is an explanation of why things fall down.
Random mutation and natural selection alone, which is what evolutionary theory teaches, are insufficient.
Peace,
Ed
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Dchsknight
Guest
I would like to suggest that we all watch the movie “Expelled” it is a good well put together movie that is relevent to this argument. Unless you go and rent it and watch it or have watched you can not make any comments on it, cause then that makes you like an idiot.
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edwest2
Guest
bringyou.to/apologetics/p81.htmWhat does the church say about it?
Pope Benedict XVI
Monod nonetheless finds the possibility for evolution in the fact that in the very propagation of the project there can be mistakes in the act of transmission. Because nature is conservative, these mistakes, once having come into existence, are carried on. Such mistakes can add up, and from the adding up of mistakes something new can arise. Now an astonishing conclusion follows: It was in this way that the whole world of living creatures, and human beings themselves, came into existence. We are the product of “haphazard mistakes.”
What response shall we make to this view? It is the affair of the natural sciences to explain how the tree of life in particular continues to grow and how new branches shoot out from it. This is not a matter for faith. But we must have the audacity to say that the great projects of the living creation are not the products of chance and error. Nor are they the products of a selective process to which divine predicates can be attributed in illogical, unscientific, and even mythic fashion. The great projects of the living creation point to a creating Reason and show us a creating Intelligence, and they do so more luminously and radiantly today than ever before. Thus we can say today with a new certitude and joyousness that the human being is indeed a divine project, which only the creating Intelligence was strong and great and audacious enough to conceive of. Human beings are not a mistake but something willed; they are the fruit of love. They can disclose in themselves, in the bold project that they are, the language of the creating Intelligence that speaks to them and that moves them to say: Yes, Father, you have willed me.
Peace,
Ed
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The_Barbarian
Guest
**New York, NY, April 29, 2008 … The Anti-Defamation League (ADL) today issued the following statement regarding the controversial film Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed.I would like to suggest that we all watch the movie “Expelled” it is a good well put together movie that is relevent to this argument. Unless you go and rent it and watch it or have watched you can not make any comments on it, cause then that makes you like an idiot.
Code:
The film Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed misappropriates the Holocaust and its imagery as a part of its political effort to discredit the scientific community which rejects so-called intelligent design theory.
Hitler did not need Darwin to devise his heinous plan to exterminate the Jewish people and Darwin and evolutionary theory cannot explain Hitler's genocidal madness.
Using the Holocaust in order to tarnish those who promote the theory of evolution is outrageous and trivializes the complex factors that led to the mass extermination of European Jewry.**I don’t watch Nazi propaganda films, either. For the same reason. This kind of viciousness should not be encouraged by buying tickets to see it. What I do know about the film is that Stein allowed atheistic scientists to have their say, but banned any biologist who was also a Christian. “No intelligence allowed,” he said. No kidding.
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The_Barbarian
Guest
St. Thomas Aquinas and your Pope would disagree. See the link below on God and contingency.Random mutation and natural selection alone, which is what evolutionary theory teaches, are insufficient.
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edwest2
Guest
Please see Human Persons Created in the Image of God, part 69:St. Thomas Aquinas and your Pope would disagree. See the link below on God and contingency.
vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/cti_documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20040723_communion-stewardship_en.html
Peace,
Ed
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The_Barbarian
Guest
No,that’s wrong. In fact, evolution is better grounded than gravity. We can observe both of them in action, but we know why evolution works. We still don’t know for sure why gravity works.gravity is scientific fact —Evolution is scientific maybe.
“Although there are legitimate debates about the patterns and processes of evolution, there is no serious scientific doubt that evolution occurred or that natural selection is a major mechanism in its occurrence.” (about 996 scientists, all named “Steve” or some variant)You can not get any reputable scientist to state that evolution is a fact.
Project Steve:
ncseweb.org/taking-action/project-steve
This includes people like Stephen Gould, Francisco Ayala, Ernst Mayr, and so on. In fact, you cannot find one world-class biologist who says that evolution is not true.
In fact, evolutionary theory depends on fish at some point evolving functional legs. These fish have since been found in the fossil record.Life forms may adapt and change to their enviroment but these are minor changes not a fish bocoming man.
They did change. Just in a different direction than humans.If evolution was an on going fact then why has the ape not fully changed rather than go extinct.
Polar bears. Appeared after the last glaciation. Evolved from grizzly bears, with which they are still somewhat interfertile.Where are the new species of mammals since the last 7ooo years.
Mutations. One favorable change occured in Europe a few thousand years ago. The gene for a certain protein on the cell membrane was altered and the protein no longer exists on the cells of some people. The good part is that it is the site of attachment for the HIV virus. Without it, the virus cannot infect the cell.How can cells change
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Dchsknight
Guest
Have you seen the movie? if not then don’t say anything, because it does not matter what any one else says about, see the movie and form your own opinion, that is why god gave us a brain. don’t let media and any one else dictate what you think. it is just like when the fundamentalist and hard core Christian people in my former church got all up in arms about Harry Potter, and our pastor asked if they had read the books and all of them said no. he then turned to them and said “Then shut your mouth because you do not know what the books say and you only have hear-say, read them and then say they are bad, but if you don’t read them then your being slanderous, have a reason for your opposition. Because then you wont just be fighting, you will be fighting for a reason.” Ignore media, pope, priest, pastor, father, best friend, and see it for your self, Saint Paul said Test Everything, he didn’t say listen to media and read what other people say and ignore the topic and base an opinion off of hear-say. Watch the movie yourself and then come back. if what that the ADL ring true to you then you have good reason, if you don’t watch then as the bible says your just a Resounding Gong.**New York, NY, April 29, 2008 … The Anti-Defamation League (ADL) today issued the following statement regarding the controversial film Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed.
adl.org/PresRele/HolNa_52/5277_52.htmCode:The film Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed misappropriates the Holocaust and its imagery as a part of its political effort to discredit the scientific community which rejects so-called intelligent design theory. did not need Darwin to devise his heinous plan to exterminate the Jewish people and Darwin and evolutionary theory cannot explain 's genocidal madness. Using the Holocaust in order to tarnish those who promote the theory of evolution is outrageous and trivializes the complex factors that led to the mass extermination of European Jewry.**
I don’t watch propaganda films, either. For the same reason. This kind of viciousness should not be encouraged by buying tickets to see it. What I do know about the film is that Stein allowed atheistic scientists to have their say, but banned any biologist who was also a Christian. “No intelligence allowed,” he said. No kidding.
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The_Barbarian
Guest
Barbarian reminds:
St. Thomas Aquinas and your Pope would disagree. See the link below on God and contingency.
*The current scientific debate about the mechanisms at work in evolution requires theological comment insofar as it sometimes implies a misunderstanding of the nature of divine causality. Many neo-Darwinian scientists, as well as some of their critics, have concluded that, if evolution is a radically contingent materialistic process driven by natural selection and random genetic variation, then there can be no place in it for divine providential causality. A growing body of scientific critics of neo-Darwinism point to evidence of design (e.g., biological structures that exhibit specified complexity) that, in their view, cannot be explained in terms of a purely contingent process and that neo-Darwinians have ignored or misinterpreted. The nub of this currently lively disagreement involves scientific observation and generalization concerning whether the available data support inferences of design or chance, and cannot be settled by theology. But it is important to note that, according to the Catholic understanding of divine causality, true contingency in the created order is not incompatible with a purposeful divine providence. Divine causality and created causality radically differ in kind and not only in degree. Thus, even the outcome of a truly contingent natural process can nonetheless fall within God’s providential plan for creation. According to St. Thomas Aquinas: “The effect of divine providence is not only that things should happen somehow, but that they should happen either by necessity or by contingency. Therefore, whatsoever divine providence ordains to happen infallibly and of necessity happens infallibly and of necessity; and that happens from contingency, which the divine providence conceives to happen from contingency” (Summa theologiae, I, 22,4 ad 1). In the Catholic perspective, neo-Darwinians who adduce random genetic variation and natural selection as evidence that the process of evolution is absolutely unguided are straying beyond what can be demonstrated by science. Divine causality can be active in a process that is both contingent and guided. Any evolutionary mechanism that is contingent can only be contingent because God made it so. An unguided evolutionary process – one that falls outside the bounds of divine providence – simply cannot exist because “the causality of God, Who is the first agent, extends to all being, not only as to constituent principles of species, but also as to the individualizing principles…It necessarily follows that all things, inasmuch as they participate in existence, must likewise be subject to divine providence” (Summa theologiae I, 22, 2). *
Notice that he writes first that contingent processes like evolution are just as easily used by God as anything else. And then he points out that anyone who argues that contingency rules out God has departed from scientific thinking. And he’s right. Read it all, and listen to him, Ed.
St. Thomas Aquinas and your Pope would disagree. See the link below on God and contingency.
That’s what I linked you to. Here’s what it says:Please see Human Persons Created in the Image of God, part 69:
*The current scientific debate about the mechanisms at work in evolution requires theological comment insofar as it sometimes implies a misunderstanding of the nature of divine causality. Many neo-Darwinian scientists, as well as some of their critics, have concluded that, if evolution is a radically contingent materialistic process driven by natural selection and random genetic variation, then there can be no place in it for divine providential causality. A growing body of scientific critics of neo-Darwinism point to evidence of design (e.g., biological structures that exhibit specified complexity) that, in their view, cannot be explained in terms of a purely contingent process and that neo-Darwinians have ignored or misinterpreted. The nub of this currently lively disagreement involves scientific observation and generalization concerning whether the available data support inferences of design or chance, and cannot be settled by theology. But it is important to note that, according to the Catholic understanding of divine causality, true contingency in the created order is not incompatible with a purposeful divine providence. Divine causality and created causality radically differ in kind and not only in degree. Thus, even the outcome of a truly contingent natural process can nonetheless fall within God’s providential plan for creation. According to St. Thomas Aquinas: “The effect of divine providence is not only that things should happen somehow, but that they should happen either by necessity or by contingency. Therefore, whatsoever divine providence ordains to happen infallibly and of necessity happens infallibly and of necessity; and that happens from contingency, which the divine providence conceives to happen from contingency” (Summa theologiae, I, 22,4 ad 1). In the Catholic perspective, neo-Darwinians who adduce random genetic variation and natural selection as evidence that the process of evolution is absolutely unguided are straying beyond what can be demonstrated by science. Divine causality can be active in a process that is both contingent and guided. Any evolutionary mechanism that is contingent can only be contingent because God made it so. An unguided evolutionary process – one that falls outside the bounds of divine providence – simply cannot exist because “the causality of God, Who is the first agent, extends to all being, not only as to constituent principles of species, but also as to the individualizing principles…It necessarily follows that all things, inasmuch as they participate in existence, must likewise be subject to divine providence” (Summa theologiae I, 22, 2). *
Notice that he writes first that contingent processes like evolution are just as easily used by God as anything else. And then he points out that anyone who argues that contingency rules out God has departed from scientific thinking. And he’s right. Read it all, and listen to him, Ed.
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The_Barbarian
Guest
I haven’t seen “Triumph of the Will” for the same reasons. Propaganda, particularly propaganda that excuses the Holocaust, disgusts me.Have you seen the movie?
I think the review from the people whose relatives actually suffered in the Holocaust, is quite sufficient. I don’t intend to give the bigot a nickel, much less the price of admission.if not then don’t say anything, because it does not matter what any one else says about, see the movie and form your own opinion, that is why god gave us a brain.
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mpartyka
Guest
Okay…then shouldn’t we do the same when it comes to the evidence for evolution? I myself don’t have the know-how to take apart and compare strands of DNA, but there are other people who do, and these people – some of whom are religious, others not – have shown me clear and convincing evidence that humans and chimps have descended from a common ancestor. Obviously, this conclusion contradicts the simplistic picture of direct creation given in Genesis 1 and 2. It seems to me that I must either interpret Genesis 1 and 2 in a fashion consistent with my conclusions based on the evidence, or else I must discard Genesis 1 and 2 altogether as being false, misleading stories of how humanity originated. Which would you have me do? Because if you suggest that I should accept Genesis 1 and 2 in their literal sense, that would cause me to have to deny the testimony that I’ve seen with my own eyes (albeit through the work of others), and that flies in the face of your earlier admonition to “see” for yourself, “form your own opinion,” and “don’t let anyone else dictate what you think.”Have you seen the movie? if not then don’t say anything, because it does not matter what any one else says about, see the movie and form your own opinion, that is why god gave us a brain. don’t let media and any one else dictate what you think.
–Mike
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mpartyka
Guest
Um…the movie doesn’t try to “excuse” or “trivialize” the Holocaust. It just tries to cite the theory of evolution as one reason the Holocaust may have happened. Personally, I think there might indeed be a causative link between evolution and the Holocaust, but I also know this says nothing about whether or not evolution is true. People can act on truth in both good ways and bad ways, and it’s up to the people themselves to determine how they will act.I haven’t seen “Triumph of the Will” for the same reasons. Propaganda, particularly propaganda that excuses the Holocaust, disgusts me. I think the review from the people whose relatives actually suffered in the Holocaust, is quite sufficient. I don’t intend to give the bigot a nickel, much less the price of admission.
–Mike
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Orogeny
Guest
I take it that you have seen the movie? If so, did you see any Christian scientists that accept evolution?Have you seen the movie? if not then don’t say anything, because it does not matter what any one else says about, see the movie and form your own opinion, that is why god gave us a brain.
You mean anyone else like Ben Stein?don’t let media and any one else dictate what you think.
I listened to Stein on several interviews. I went to his website. I am familiar with the cases he discusses. I know that he and his producer intentionally did not include people like Ken Miller, a Catholic biologist who accepts evolution because they didn’t want raise any unnecessary (their words) confusion about evolution.it is just like when the fundamentalist and hard core Christian people in my former church got all up in arms about Harry Potter, and our pastor asked if they had read the books and all of them said no. he then turned to them and said “Then shut your mouth because you do not know what the books say and you only have hear-say, read them and then say they are bad, but if you don’t read them then your being slanderous, have a reason for your opposition. Because then you wont just be fighting, you will be fighting for a reason.” Ignore media, pope, priest, pastor, father, best friend, and see it for your self, Saint Paul said Test Everything, he didn’t say listen to media and read what other people say and ignore the topic and base an opinion off of hear-say. Watch the movie yourself and then come back. if what that the ADL ring true to you then you have good reason, if you don’t watch then as the bible says your just a Resounding Gong.
I won’t give them any of my money.
Peace
Tim
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Dchsknight
Guest
Mike I will stand on the word of God over any science any day. because of all the science classes and forced feed Evolution as fact when it is just a theory i have taken in my academic career, of which all of the teachers and everyone i have heard on the subject sound like the belong in a insane asylum more then a school
The barbarian, your just a gong who refuse to see all sides of the story, your no better then people who say the holocaust did not happen and that we did not land on the moon and the people who burnt women at the stake instead of searching and see all sides.
The barbarian, your just a gong who refuse to see all sides of the story, your no better then people who say the holocaust did not happen and that we did not land on the moon and the people who burnt women at the stake instead of searching and see all sides.
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Orogeny
Guest
What a strange thing to say! Barbarian supports science, you deny it. Which would be more likely to do the things you accuse Barbarian of?The barbarian, your just a gong who refuse to see all sides of the story, your no better then people who say the holocaust did not happen and that we did not land on the moon and the people who burnt women at the stake instead of searching and see all sides.
Peace
Tim
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The_Barbarian
Guest
You don’t have to make that choice. A very wise and Godly man once observed that truth cannot contradict truth. Listen to him. He was John Paul II.Mike I will stand on the word of God over any science any day.
So is gravity. But don’t go jumping off roofs. You should learn what “theory” means in science.because of all the science classes and forced feed Evolution as fact when it is just a theory
What seems to rile you is that I heard all sides, and then decided what seemed right.The barbarian, your just a gong who refuse to see all sides of the story,
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mpartyka
Guest
Okay, this is all starting to wear me out. I’m going to bow out until April, if that’s okay with everyone, because there’s going to be a conference in Rome in March on the topic of evolution anyway, and I’d like to see what shakes out of that.
evolution-rome2009.net/
–Mike
evolution-rome2009.net/
–Mike
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