Evolution

[CHRISTINE77]

Ahhh! Interesting notion, but you will soon be shut down.

Could our skulls be smaller due to adaptation? Could our skulls and brain size/power be less than before the fall? Does a smaller brain diminish our ability to experience the supernatural?

Love it!

Could our smaller brains make us unable to communicate with God? To hear His voice?

 

[tommiatkins]

What do you believe - Creationism or Evolution? Here are some quotes by Pope Benedict concerning the Church’s views:

We cannot say: creation or evolution, inasmuch as these two things respond to two different realities. The story of the dust of the earth and the breath of God, which we just heard, does not in fact explain how human persons come to be but rather what they are. It explains their inmost origin and casts light on the project that they are. And, vice versa, the theory of evolution seeks to understand and describe biological developments. But in so doing it cannot explain where the ‘project’ of human persons comes from, nor their inner origin, nor their particular nature. To that extent we are faced here with two complementary – rather than mutually exclusive – realities.

– Cardinal Ratzinger, In the Beginning: A Catholic Understanding of the Story of Creation and the Fall [Eerdmans, 1986, 1995], see especially pages 41-58)[page # needed]

In a book released in 2008, his comments prior to becoming Pope were recorded as:

The clay became man at the moment in which a being for the first time was capable of forming, however dimly, the thought of “God.” The first Thou that–however stammeringly–was said by human lips to God marks the moment in which the spirit arose in the world. Here the Rubicon of anthropogenesis was crossed. For it is not the use of weapons or fire, not new methods of cruelty or of useful activity, that constitute man, but rather his ability to be immediately in relation to God. This holds fast to the doctrine of the special creation of man . . . herein . . . lies the reason why the moment of anthropogenesis cannot possibly be determined by paleontology: anthropogenesis is the rise of the spirit, which cannot be excavated with a shovel. The theory of evolution does not invalidate the faith, nor does it corroborate it. But it does challenge the faith to understand itself more profoundly and thus to help man to understand himself and to become increasingly what he is: the being who is supposed to say Thou to God in eternity.

– Joseph Ratzinger[11]

Several points.
The pope mentions two realities. This is clearly wrong. Man diddnt evolve from simpler species then get created out of dust or mud or clay. We are simply not made out of clay. Morph is made out of clay.

https://notfound.typepad.com

We are made out of tissue and blood cells and bone cells etc etc.

Evolution is measurable, explainable, observable and palpable. Making magic mudpies isnt. You cant have both. It’s nonsense to have two “realities”, you have reality and a fairy story that is metaphysically right alongside the goose that lays golden eggs.

Mankind existed as mankind at the moment that they first wondered about God? What arrogance. The cave paintings of spirit worship tens of thousand of years before the idea of Adam was invented by the Israelites prove that very early man was considering the unknown. Are we the only species to do this?
No. Skinners work on pigeons for example shows ritualistic behaviour can be learned and transfered. Why is religion only apparent to us as humans.
Well if Horses have a God it will be in the shape of a horse. They may pray to it. I’ll ask a horse next time Doc Doolittle comes to translate for me.
Our ability to communicate with each other at the level we do is unique as far as we know. Our opposable thumbs and large brains and developed language is why we have invented god.
Horses may pray to a Horse God, but Dolphins , being highly intelligent and having a complicated and fairly well developed language simply lack the thumbs and hence the need, to construct Dolphin cathederals.

 

[vince70]

Several points.
The pope mentions two realities. This is clearly wrong. Man diddnt evolve from simpler species then get created out of dust or mud or clay. We are simply not made out of clay. Morph is made out of clay.

We are made out of tissue and blood cells and bone cells etc etc.

Evolution is measurable, explainable, observable and palpable. Making magic mudpies isnt. You cant have both. It’s nonsense to have two “realities”, you have reality and a fairy story that is metaphysically right alongside the goose that lays golden eggs.

Mankind existed as mankind at the moment that they first wondered about God? What arrogance. The cave paintings of spirit worship tens of thousand of years before the idea of Adam was invented by the Israelites prove that very early man was considering the unknown. Are we the only species to do this?
No. Skinners work on pigeons for example shows ritualistic behaviour can be learned and transfered. Why is religion only apparent to us as humans.
Well if Horses have a God it will be in the shape of a horse. They may pray to it. I’ll ask a horse next time Doc Doolittle comes to translate for me.
Our ability to communicate with each other at the level we do is unique as far as we know. Our opposable thumbs and large brains and developed language is why we have invented god.
Horses may pray to a Horse God, but Dolphins , being highly intelligent and having a complicated and fairly well developed language simply lack the thumbs and hence the need, to construct Dolphin cathederals.

To deny the supernatural is to live with your head buried in the sand. There is ample proof and many places you can visit and study that indicate a reality that defies the natural law. I have personally experienced this. In many of these cases many people experienced these occurances and at the same time. So, it would be illogical to claim that all these people are delusional.

 

[Namesake]

I don’t think that shows highly evolved intelligence. It is more like instinct like when a mouse navigates a maze to reach the cheese. Could it also be that in this regard, the ape used its natural ability like an infant human doing that same thing?

Mice running a maze is learned behavior and unrelated to instinct.

 

[reggieM]

To deny the supernatural is to live with your head buried in the sand. There is ample proof and many places you can visit and study that indicate a reality that defies the natural law. I have personally experienced this. In many of these cases many people experienced these occurances and at the same time. So, it would be illogical to claim that all these people are delusional.

Good points. To view all of life as if it is only an accidental assembly of matter is to have an extremely limited view of things. God has given every human being (even unbelievers) the power to recognize the supernatural. Every Catholic is called to live a supernatural life here on earth – a life of grace that rises above nature.

 

[vince70]

Mice running a maze is learned behavior and unrelated to instinct.

No I disagree. The mouse, being hungry sought out the food. That is instinct not something it had to learn. It’s like when a baby gazelle is born on the African plains it is up and running with the herd within about 30 minutes, otherwise its chances of survival is reduced. That is naturally built-in instinct. Also, like a dog being able to swim without having to be taught.

 

[Namesake]

No I disagree. The mouse, being hungry sought out the food. That is instinct not something it had to learn. It’s like when a baby gazelle is born on the African plains it is up and running with the herd within about 30 minutes, otherwise its chances of survival is reduced. That is naturally built-in instinct. Also, like a dog being able to swim without having to be taught.

You need to learn about basic psychology. Mice (rats) don’t run a maze based on instinct. They learn to run a maze based on learned responses. Look up B. F Skinner.

 

[tommiatkins]

To deny the supernatural is to live with your head buried in the sand. There is ample proof and many places you can visit and study that indicate a reality that defies the natural law. I have personally experienced this. In many of these cases many people experienced these occurances and at the same time. So, it would be illogical to claim that all these people are delusional.

I would argue that it is demonstratably vice versa. The Church stuck their head in the sand when evolution was discovered. The Anglican Church is bracing itself for an apology to Charles darwin for mocking him. He was lucky. Less than 100 years earlier and he would have been literally roasted slowly from the feet upwards over a fire. A slow yet inventive way theists had of dealing with people who took their heads out of the sand.

I would offer a challenge to name one place in this whole planet where we can observe the natural law’s beng broken.
I would also, should you care to offer your experience, explain it in a few sentances why it wasnt supernatural.

 

[The_Barbarian]

Most likely, Neandertals had larger brains simply because they had much greater muscle mass than we do. Much of the brain is simply there to operate the body, not to think.

 

[vince70]

I would argue that it is demonstratably vice versa. The Church stuck their head in the sand when evolution was discovered. The Anglican Church is bracing itself for an apology to Charles darwin for mocking him. He was lucky. Less than 100 years earlier and he would have been literally roasted slowly from the feet upwards over a fire. A slow yet inventive way theists had of dealing with people who took their heads out of the sand.

I would offer a challenge to name one place in this whole planet where we can observe the natural law’s beng broken.
I would also, should you care to offer your experience, explain it in a few sentances why it wasnt supernatural.

Your comment is the most common among atheists. An atheist must reject everything and anything that could possibly be supernatural, even with absurd arguments, otherwise their whole belief system is thrown into chaos.

If I were to give you any of the many supernatural occurances, you will simply dismiss it. You will need to conclude that either myself or others are lying because, again, it would completely cause you chaos. I have already gone up against atheists before and offered all kinds of proofs, but they were content in their own mentality and any attempt to have them broaden their view was out of the question. So, your challenge is not a challenge. Anything I propose, you would simply give an answer that would satisfy yourself.

“I would also, should you care to offer your experience, explain it in a few sentances why it wasnt supernatural”
This proves that you are not open to anything I could offer. Another typical armchair atheist response.

 

[tommiatkins]

We use about 15% of our brains.

 

[reggieM]

Your comment is the most common among atheists. An atheist must reject everything and anything that could possibly be supernatural, even with absurd arguments, otherwise their whole belief system is thrown into chaos.

The consequences of this are striking also. One has to dismiss the entire body of literature on supernatural phenomena and conclude that it is all merely “an illusion”. Given that every religion in human history has had some orientation to the supernatural it basically condemns all of humanity (with the exception of a handful of atheists) as deluded. That’s an amazingly narrow and cynical view of life.

If I were to give you any of the many supernatural occurances, you will simply dismiss it.

Yes, exactly right. It is cyncism at the core – its an attitude that is cut off from the common experience of humanity (that there is a spiritual life beyond the natural).

If every reference to supernatural phenomena, including the many cases well-documented are dismissed out of hand - then it’s pointless to even have the discussion.

So, your challenge is not a challenge. Anything I propose, you would simply give an answer that would satisfy yourself.

That’s true in more ways than one.

For those who believe, God is a richness and treasure beyond words and beyond the limits of life on earth. For us, to possess God is the greatest thing imaginable.

I think atheists miss this. Why would they boast about possessing nothing? Or why would they be delighted to point out that they haven’t found God – and they don’t even want to try to find Him?

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Have another look at that:Today, there exist on earth BOTH Americans and Europeans. But if some Americans descended from Europeans, why do Europeans still exist?The answer of course is that some Europeans moved ot America and their descendants are now Americans, other Europeans stayed in Europe and their descendants are still Europeans.

In the case of humans, some ancient apes evolved into chimps, gorillas etc. while other ancient apes evolved into humans.

In scientific terms all humans are apes (Hominidae). We are a large brained primate with no tail and a certain conformation of our teeth and shoulder joints. We meet the definition.

rossum

And every so often, human beings are born with vestigial tails or tail-like appendages.​

This is not unassailable evidence of evolution - people develop in all manner of strange ways - but it counts for something.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Love it!

Could our smaller brains make us unable to communicate with God? To hear His voice?

We are part of the created, natural order, & are spirit-body composites - God Is:​

• Transcendent
• Uncreated
• Supernatural
• Unique
• Incomparable
• Not a body
• Pure Spirit
  So the answer is “No, not with the ears of the body”. Communion with God is hindered by sin - not by our physical-biological-chemical constitution.

 

[The_Barbarian]

We use about 15% of our brains.

So far, all the evidence from research shows almost all of it in use, almost all the time. It’s very hard not to have it working like that. Some of us may act that way, but no, it’s functioning pretty much full speed, all the time.

One of the things the rosary does, is still the constant traffic in the conscious mind to a level that lets us listen to God. By focusing on just a few things about God, and excluding all other things, we are better able to hear Him.

I was somewhat uncomfortable when I returned to using the rosary; it was foolish to feel that way.

 

[SFTor]

The consequences of this are striking also. One has to dismiss the entire body of literature on supernatural phenomena and conclude that it is all merely “an illusion”. Given that every religion in human history has had some orientation to the supernatural it basically condemns all of humanity (with the exception of a handful of atheists) as deluded. That’s an amazingly narrow and cynical view of life.

How do you feel about the Arizona (or Phoenix) lights, Reggie? That was pretty supernatural. Does that make you a believer in UFOs?

Best,

Tor

 

[reggieM]

How do you feel about the Arizona (or Phoenix) lights, Reggie? That was pretty supernatural. Does that make you a believer in UFOs?

Does this one event that I know little or nothing about make me a believer in UFO’s? No, it doesn’t. But can this in any way compare with the cultural, social and philosophical evidence for the existence of a supernatural order? Not in any way I can see.

 

[turtleoompa]

No brainer! God was the something that started it all. We were taught evolution in Catholic school back in the 70’s. If there was a big bang, it was God that started it. No need to dwell over this issue.

 

[edwest2]

Too many are walking aound thinking that a mindless, directionless nature brought them into being. There is a real disconnect in their minds between what God can do and what nature can do - which, by the way, on its own it can do nothing.

bringyou.to/apologetics/p81.htm

Pope Benedict XVI

Monod nonetheless finds the possibility for evolution in the fact that in the very propagation of the project there can be mistakes in the act of transmission. Because nature is conservative, these mistakes, once having come into existence, are carried on. Such mistakes can add up, and from the adding up of mistakes something new can arise. Now an astonishing conclusion follows: It was in this way that the whole world of living creatures, and human beings themselves, came into existence. We are the product of “haphazard mistakes.”

What response shall we make to this view? It is the affair of the natural sciences to explain how the tree of life in particular continues to grow and how new branches shoot out from it. This is not a matter for faith. But we must have the audacity to say that the great projects of the living creation are not the products of chance and error. Nor are they the products of a selective process to which divine predicates can be attributed in illogical, unscientific, and even mythic fashion. The great projects of the living creation point to a creating Reason and show us a creating Intelligence, and they do so more luminously and radiantly today than ever before. Thus we can say today with a new certitude and joyousness that the human being is indeed a divine project, which only the creating Intelligence was strong and great and audacious enough to conceive of. Human beings are not a mistake but something willed; they are the fruit of love. They can disclose in themselves, in the bold project that they are, the language of the creating Intelligence that speaks to them and that moves them to say: Yes, Father, you have willed me.
[end quote]

God bless,
Ed

 

[SFTor]

Does this one event that I know little or nothing about make me a believer in UFO’s? No, it doesn’t. But can this in any way compare with the cultural, social and philosophical evidence for the existence of a supernatural order? Not in any way I can see.

There are pictures and videos of the Phoenix lights. You may want to google it. It’s pretty eerie.

The evidence you are talking about for the supernatural is far weaker than the evidence for the Phoenix lights being extraterrestrial spacecraft.

And please do not mistake me for a UFO believer. I am just making an observation. Of the UFO kind in this case, I suppose.

Best,

Tor