Evolution

[MattB99]

Hello,
I am a 23 year old confirmed Catholic. I attend mass on a sporadic basis and I am beginning to realize that regular mass attendance is crucial for a solid relationship with God. I do have many question regarding the Catholic faith but do not want to sin by questioning scripture or God. I am a slightly confused, young Catholic looking for answers to better understand my faith. Like I said, I am a college Junior.
Sitting in school every day listening to majority pro-evolution professors, you start to question everything. Now I know the theory of evolution, Big Bang, ect. ect. sounds even crazier than God always existing an creating everything, but certain beliefs do kinda make sense…Who created Dinosaurs, how old is the Earth, other life forms in the Universe. I know that the bible says that humans are the only life forms in the Universe, but then again people 1,000-2,000 years ago were killed by Catholics/Christians for claiming the Earth was round…I also heard a theory from a fairly devout Catholic that two types of humans exist. Those who evolved from monkeys or whatever crazy amoeba was there first and when you die there is nothing, and those who were created by God, believe in God and life after death. I am just a seriously confused Catholic and I question many things written in the bible. The bible was written by the imperfect man and who is to say that what they wrote is exactly true or if God even told them to write it?? Maybe some scriptures were written to better a situation for certain people. Almost the same way American politics work today, Scare tactics, ect. If anyone can help me understand this better I would be forever grateful.

 

[lozeerose]

"Who created Dinosaurs, how old is the Earth, other life forms in the Universe?"
God did. Evolution (theistic evolution) does not have to conflict with God so long as you do not remove God from the equation. Keep this in mind also, God created humans in his image because he gave us a spiritual soul – evolution did not create the soul. That soul sets us apart from other living beings who too have souls but whose souls are material and finite. Our souls are infinite. See Adam, Eve and Evolution.

"two types of humans exist"
Huh? One type of human exists. Everything else is either plant or just “animal;” however, we are all creatures (created).

***The bible was written by the imperfect man and who is to say that what they wrote is exactly true or if God even told them to write it?? ***
I was there too once. The bible was indeed written, translated and copied by imperfect men. Just look at all the translations and errors of text and grammar, etc. But that is why Christ left us the Church. He said, “And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” Matthew 16:18.

This means that he will protect his Church from error. So when you have questions about how to interpret things and the legitimacy of the Canon you can confide and trust in the Church because Jesus promised to protect it.

Maybe some scriptures were written to better a situation for certain people.
Indeed scripture was written in a certain time and through the skills of its authors but it was all inspired by the holy Spirit, which means that the message is there for all eternity (see Matt. 16:18 above).

For more answers check out the resources here at Catholic.com and read the Catechism of the Catholic Church and the Bible (Catholic translation of course) daily. Also pray for more understanding.

 

[anEvilAtheist]

I really don’t think that the evidence for the Big Bang or for evolution (which I think there is a lot of) should be a problem for Catholics, although they might be problems for biblical literalists. I don’t think they contradict any Catholic teachings and, if God exists, he could have used whatever mechanism of creation he wanted.

But I do think it’s good that you’re asking questions about your beliefs. I think that a lot of people who grow up in very religious or secular homes never take the time to try to find out the truth for themselves. There are many different religions and we can’t just assume that the family we were born into happened to have the right religious beliefs. Wherever that questioning leads us, I think it’s important for us to know why we believe what we believe. Religion is far too important to just casually dismiss or accept.

Anyway, the main reason I weighed in is that I want to point out a problem with one part of lozeerose’s response. I think that it is circular reasoning to cite Matthew 16:18. Saying that the Catholic Church is an infallible interpreter of the Bible because the Bible says that it is only works if you have a reason for believing the Bible. You can’t have the Church get its authority from the Bible and at the same time have the Bible get its authority from the Church. This is why it’s important to look at the historical evidence for the divinity of Jesus and the reliability of scripture. I don’t think this evidence is very good, despite arguments from apologists that initially sound persuasive (as long as you don’t examine them more closely). Of course, you might reach a very different conclusion than the one I reached.

 

[Donald45]

Hello, I am a 23 year old confirmed Catholic. I attend mass on a sporadic basis and I am beginning to realize that regular mass attendance is crucial for a solid relationship with God. I do have many question regarding the Catholic faith but do not want to sin by questioning scripture or God. I am a slightly confused, young Catholic looking for answers to better understand my faith. Like I said, I am a college Junior.

Sitting in school every day listening to majority pro-evolution professors, you start to question everything. Now I know the theory of evolution, Big Bang, ect. ect. sounds even crazier than God always existing an creating everything, but certain beliefs do kinda make sense…Who created Dinosaurs, how old is the Earth, other life forms in the Universe. I know that the bible says that humans are the only life forms in the Universe, but then again people 1,000-2,000 years ago were killed by Catholics/Christians for claiming the Earth was round…I also heard a theory from a fairly devout Catholic that two types of humans exist. Those who evolved from monkeys or whatever crazy amoeba was there first and when you die there is nothing, and those who were created by God, believe in God and life after death. I am just a seriously confused Catholic and I question many things written in the bible. The bible was written by the imperfect man and who is to say that what they wrote is exactly true or if God even told them to write it?? Maybe some scriptures were written to better a situation for certain people. Almost the same way American politics work today, Scare tactics, ect. If anyone can help me understand this better I would be forever grateful.

Hi, Matt. I’m from Michigan as well. There are quite a few issues touched upon in your post. I’ll try to address as many as I can. College is a good place to ask a lot of questions, and to evaluate possible answers. I wouldn’t necessarily see it as a “sin to question the scriptures or God,” at least in the sense of seeking to better understand what God intends to tell us through his divine revelation, but a healthy respect for the truths taught by his Church is certainly a good place to start.

Concerning evolution. There are some questions which religion is uniquely equipped to address (questions of doctrine, spirituality, theology, morals, etc.), and others which science is particularly equipped to address (those of empirical fact, material objects and processes, etc.). Some questions can even be addressed by both religion and science, though on different levels and in different senses. For example:

"How is it that I was born with blue eyes?"
​

religous level: “God created me with blue eyes.”

scientific level: “The DNA in my cells caused me to have blue eyes.”
It’s important to see that to answer the question on one level in no way rules out the answer provided on the other level. In other words, the two answers are not mutually exclusive.

So then, regarding things like the material origin and age of the earth, or whether or not living things have evolved from prior life forms, it would be appropriate to turn to science for answers. As for questions such as why (for what purpose) the earth came into being, or the spiritual nature of human beings, religion should be consulted. There are many committed Catholics who are scientists, and who wholeheartedly accept the reality of biological evolution as an ongoing process in nature. They see no conflict whatsoever between the theological convictions of their faith and the scientific conclusions of evolution. Here are a few examples of works by such Catholic scientists:

Francisco J. Ayala, Darwin & Intelligent Design (Fortress Press, 2006); ISBN 0-8006-3802-6

Kenneth R. Miller, Finding Darwin’s God: A Scientist’s Search for Common Ground Between God & Evolution (HarperCollins, 1999); ISBN 0-06-017593-1

_____, Only a Theory: Evolution & the Battle for America’s Soul (Viking, 2008); ISBN 978-0-670-01883-3

Ted Peters & Martinez Hewlett, Can You Believe In God & Evolution: A Guide for the Perplexed (Abingdon Press, 2006); ISBN 0-687-33551-5
The Catholic Church basically leaves it up to science to answer the question of whether or not evolution is an ongoing process in nature, how it might work, etc. The purpose for the material universe and the spiritual nature of human beings, however, the Church has often addressed in its theological teachings. Again, the two levels of understanding are not mutually exclusive. Here’s a website that I highly recommend for interested Catholics:

bringyou.to/apologetics/philos.htm#Science

How about your question: “Where did the dinosaurs come from?” Answers:

religious: “God created them” (a version of this is known as theistic evolution: “God created them through the material process of evolution”).

scientific: “They evolved from prior species.”
[cont. below…]

 

[Donald45]

…cont. from above]

The idea that everyone in the Middle Ages thought the earth was flat is a sort of historical “urban myth” that’s simply not true. Most people recognized the sphericity of the earth as far back as the ancient Greeks, if not before.

You wrote: “The bible was written by the imperfect man and who is to say that what they wrote is exactly true or if God even told them to write it?” The men who wrote the biblical documents certainly were “imperfect,” Yet, Catholics contend—and for sound reasons—that God ensured that what they wrote specifically as Scripture was done so in a way which infallibly communicates God’s message to humanity. For the Catholic understanding of the Bible, see:
vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/II_vatican_council/documents/vat-II_const_19651118_dei-verbum_en.html

catholic-resources.org/ChurchDocs/PBC_Interp1.htm
You may want to print these documents and study them carefully over time. They’re really excellent.

Well, I hope this helps to clarify things for you, and doesn’t merely further muddy the water. Take care, and God bless.

Gaudium de veritate,

Don
+T+

 

[Dtmccameron]

I know that the bible says that humans are the only life forms in the Universe,

Mmmm…so I suppose dogs and cats and the other critters aren’t alive? We’re the only ensouled creations, to my knowledge, but I certainly wouldn’t say a living, breathing animal wasn’t alive.

but then again people 1,000-2,000 years ago were killed by Catholics/Christians for claiming the Earth was round…

You’re professors aparently aren’t the most trustworthy lot. There were no Catholics or Christians 2,000 years ago. Little bit later, sure. And 1000 years later, it’d be a sad peasant who still thought the earth was flat. The ancient Romans were already privy towards our planets roundness.

I also heard a theory from a fairly devout Catholic that two types of humans exist. Those who evolved from monkeys or whatever crazy amoeba was there first and when you die there is nothing, and those who were created by God, believe in God and life after death.

Well that’s an idea. Not a Catholic one, but and idea nonetheless. Consider that things don’t just pop up, and God created all things. Even if He chose and extreamly inefficient way of doing so.

I am just a seriously confused Catholic and I question many things written in the bible. The bible was written by the imperfect man and who is to say that what they wrote is exactly true…

Imperfect men. And by exaclty true, so long as you don’t hold “true” to be in the historical sense, you should be alright.

Maybe some scriptures were written to better a situation for certain people. Almost the same way American politics work today,

I don’t know, mate. Seems to me like lotsa folks we’re gettin tossed to lions and meeting all other sorts of unseemly ends for their Christianity. And then throw in the general practice of giving away your material things…Of course, practicing Catholics are bettering their situations, they’re growing closer to God, eh?

 

[VociMike]

I really don’t think that the evidence for the Big Bang or for evolution (which I think there is a lot of) should be a problem for Catholics, although they might be problems for biblical literalists. I don’t think they contradict any Catholic teachings and, if God exists, he could have used whatever mechanism of creation he wanted.

Quite right. There is no conflict between any authentic science regarding evolution or cosmology or anything else, and the Catholic faith. The conflict, as you note, comes between authentic science and those who are locked into a certain erroneous way of understanding the bible.

Most atheists seem to assume that if evolution is true, God can’t exist. That’s false and not even logical. And many Christians think evolution is a threat to the faith. Wrong again.

What amuses me is that people who don’t want to consider having “evolved from monkeys” (I know, not an accurate statement), don’t mind having been created from dirt.

 

[Donald45]

Hmm… For some reason, the first link on the Catholic view of Scripture in Post #5 seems to be acting up. Here it is again:
vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19651118_dei-verbum_en.html

Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

 

[redhen]

but then again people 1,000-2,000 years ago were killed by Catholics/Christians for claiming the Earth was round…

Ah, post-modern academia in action. Was it a professor who said this? It wouldn’t surprise me. I loathe all these Marxist teachers that have polluted western academics for the last 50 years. I encountered several last year at a secular college. One went as far to say that Christians were stupid and gullible. I thought surely someone would object, but these kids were either too cowed or worse, agreed with him.

As an agnostic, I quietly ignored him, except when it came to politics. I wish now that I had spoken up. I should have replied; “If Christians are stupid and gullible as you say, then they should all instantly believe you, right?”

Here’s a short article on what can be done to redress this harassment and discrimination.

catholiceducation.org/articles/education/ed0208.html

 

[edwest2]

Quite right. There is no conflict between any authentic science regarding evolution or cosmology or anything else, and the Catholic faith. The conflict, as you note, comes between authentic science and those who are locked into a certain erroneous way of understanding the bible.

Most atheists seem to assume that if evolution is true, God can’t exist. That’s false and not even logical. And many Christians think evolution is a threat to the faith. Wrong again.

What amuses me is that people who don’t want to consider having “evolved from monkeys” (I know, not an accurate statement), don’t mind having been created from dirt.

Mike, there are textbooks that tell the reader there is no divine plan. Anti-theists are intellectually satisfied to have a non-God explanation. After all, human beings are just slightly more complicated snowflakes to them. Rulers in the past knew that if a falsehood was repeated often enough, their trusting (at least for the moment) subjects would believe them, or at least the majority would. But once the people swallowed the first falsehood because of misplaced trust, another would quickly follow.

Even Pope Benedict said, “But it is also true that evolution is not a complete, scientifically proven theory.”

I am unconvinced that human beings share a common ancestor with apes. Another explanation is that due to similarities in our body plans, certain DNA instructions are similar but that’s it.

Peace,
Ed

 

[Donald45]

Mike, there are textbooks that tell the reader there is no divine plan.

How many, compared to the thousands in print? In any case, this would be a personal philosophical opinion of the author, and not a properly scientific statement.

Anti-theists are intellectually satisfied to have a non-God explanation.

A “non-god” explanation is not the same as an “anti-theistic” explanation.

Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

 

[VociMike]

Mike, there are textbooks that tell the reader there is no divine plan.

But any such statement is one based on faith, not evidence. And that is amusing, you must admit.

Anti-theists are intellectually satisfied to have a non-God explanation.

Even Pope Benedict said, “But it is also true that evolution is not a complete, scientifically proven theory.”

That’s why I use the term “authentic science”. I don’t claim to know what parts of “the theory of evolution” are authentic science, and what parts are wishful thinking, unjustified extensions, blatant fraud, etc. But authentic science, those realities of the natural world which we actually can know via our God-given abilities, cannot conflict with the Catholic faith, nor can they in any way disprove God.

I am unconvinced that human beings share a common ancestor with apes. Another explanation is that due to similarities in our body plans, certain DNA instructions are similar but that’s it.

I’m content to “trust but verify” when it comes to science. Unfortunately, those areas of science that seem to impinge on either religion or politics seem very susceptible to distortion, misrepresentation and outright deception. But as Christians we should understand about that.

Peace,
Ed

 

[Mersenne]

Mike, there are textbooks that tell the reader there is no divine plan. Anti-theists are intellectually satisfied to have a non-God explanation. After all, human beings are just slightly more complicated snowflakes to them.

I certainly don’t know of anyone, either personally or in the public sphere, who claims that. I can’t imagine too many atheists who don’t believe life is by a vast margin the most complex thing in the universe, and that human beings are the most complex species on the planet. There are more connections in the human brain than there are stars in the universe. That’s quite something to try to contemplate.

 

[edwest2]

I certainly don’t know of anyone, either personally or in the public sphere, who claims that. I can’t imagine too many atheists who don’t believe life is by a vast margin the most complex thing in the universe, and that human beings are the most complex species on the planet. There are more connections in the human brain than there are stars in the universe. That’s quite something to try to contemplate.

You are aware of the book by Richard Dawkins, God Delusion? I watched him on television when he politely replied “No.” to the following question: “You don’t believe God formed man from the dust of the earth and breathed life into his nostrils?”

Complex? We were formed by random mutation and natural selection, that’s it. At least according to the Biology text. No God required.

Peace,
Ed

 

[edwest2]

But any such statement is one based on faith, not evidence. And that is amusing, you must admit.

That’s why I use the term “authentic science”. I don’t claim to know what parts of “the theory of evolution” are authentic science, and what parts are wishful thinking, unjustified extensions, blatant fraud, etc. But authentic science, those realities of the natural world which we actually can know via our God-given abilities, cannot conflict with the Catholic faith, nor can they in any way disprove God.

I’m content to “trust but verify” when it comes to science. Unfortunately, those areas of science that seem to impinge on either religion or politics seem very susceptible to distortion, misrepresentation and outright deception. But as Christians we should understand about that.

Peace,
Ed

Amusing? What is amusing about inserting purely unscientific conclusions into textbooks? What is amusing about people like Richard Dawkins or Sam Harris spreading their nonsense in public and scientific venues? The amusing part would be what, exactly?

Could you explain the amusing global campaign to convince people that Man created God?

I am a big fan of ‘trust but verify’ but who can be trusted? What current scientific experiment shows that evolution did, in fact, occur in the past? And who will or is going to verify it? Do you consider it logical that a series of small, undirected changes in a row led to the development of complexity over time? If so, how do you know this?

I could have all the parts for a bicycle floating in a liquid for a billion years. What do you think the odds of correct assembly would be?

Peace,
Ed

 

[VociMike]

Amusing? What is amusing about inserting purely unscientific conclusions into textbooks? What is amusing about people like Richard Dawkins or Sam Harris spreading their nonsense in public and scientific venues? The amusing part would be what, exactly?

Could you explain the amusing global campaign to convince people that Man created God?

Oh please, you are, either deliberately or through a lack of comprehension, misrepresenting what I said.

I am a big fan of ‘trust but verify’ but who can be trusted? What current scientific experiment shows that evolution did, in fact, occur in the past? And who will or is going to verify it? Do you consider it logical that a series of small, undirected changes in a row led to the development of complexity over time? If so, how do you know this?

You tell me. Who guards the guards? Is the scientific method fundamentally sound, or fundamentally flawed?

I could have all the parts for a bicycle floating in a liquid for a billion years. What do you think the odds of correct assembly would be?

Ah, but you’re not God. If God wanted to have life evolve, could he design the natural world to bring it about or could he not?

 

[edwest2]

Science recognizes no God and the theory of evolution, as presented, is self-starting and self-generating. It requires no supernatural interference to operate.

Peace,
Ed

 

[VociMike]

Science recognizes no God and the theory of evolution, as presented, is self-starting and self-generating. It requires no supernatural interference to operate.

But science doesn’t “get its own dirt” as the joke goes. Science does not claim to know, or to ever be able to know, why there is something rather than nothing, and why the most fundamental laws of nature exist, and exist in the form they actually take.

 

[lozeerose]

Anyway, the main reason I weighed in is that I want to point out a problem with one part of lozeerose’s response. I think that it is circular reasoning to cite Matthew 16:18. Saying that the Catholic Church is an infallible interpreter of the Bible because the Bible says that it is only works if you have a reason for believing the Bible. You can’t have the Church get its authority from the Bible and at the same time have the Bible get its authority from the Church. This is why it’s important to look at the historical evidence for the divinity of Jesus and the reliability of scripture. I don’t think this evidence is very good, despite arguments from apologists that initially sound persuasive (as long as you don’t examine them more closely). Of course, you might reach a very different conclusion than the one I reached.

Actually that would be true if I held that the bible was the sole authority but it is not. Besides this was a quote from Jesus himself, which Sacred Scripture is affirming. There are also other passages in the bible that affirm Church authority but since I am responding on from my cell and do not have scripture committed to memory I will not include them here. But all of this is for another thread. And you should look closer at the evidence for Jesus’ divinity and the bible’s reliability, in doing so you may open yourself to receive and accept the gift of Faith and find the true meaning of life.

God bless you evilatheist. You are not evil at all. In fact, I think that taking the time to respond to our friend and politely show you disagreement with demonstrate this. I will pray for and ask anyone who comes across this thread to do so as well.

 

[anEvilAtheist]

Actually that would be true if I held that the bible was the sole authority but it is not. Besides this was a quote from Jesus himself, which Sacred Scripture is affirming.

But you don’t know it’s a quote from Jesus unless you have a reason to think the Bible is accurate. I’m not saying Jesus didn’t say it, just that you do have to look at some evidence besides what the Bible and Catholic Church say.

There are also other passages in the bible that affirm Church authority but since I am responding on from my cell and do not have scripture committed to memory I will not include them here.

There’s no need. It doesn’t matter how clearly the Bible says that the Catholic Church is the authority unless there’s some reason to trust the Bible.

But all of this is for another thread. And you should look closer at the evidence for Jesus’ divinity and the bible’s reliability, in doing so you may open yourself to receive and accept the gift of Faith and find the true meaning of life.

I do plan on reading more about the historical evidence. I think that the evidence most people use isn’t that good, but it’s always possible that there’s evidence out there that I’ve missed.

God bless you evilatheist. You are not evil at all. In fact, I think that taking the time to respond to our friend and politely show you disagreement with demonstrate this. I will pray for and ask anyone who comes across this thread to do so as well.

Thanks for your kind words.