Evolution

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Also, the theory of evolution doesn’t teach we are the most evolved intelligent and powerful life form in the universe. I’m pretty sure you just made that up.
As the earth goes round the sun is a fact, I think it is obvious by now that we humans are the most intelligent life in the universe, that we have found so far. There is no evidence that there are more intelligent species, so I put my money on the bet that we are the most intelligent. Evolution refers to what occurs on this earth and in that case we are definitely the most intelligent and powerful life form in the universe.
If not, then show me one more intelligent and powerful.
 
"Montalban:
And that is why it’s a useless theory. Science is often used to make predictions.
You can’t do that with evolution except to say that whatever survived just must have done so by evolution.
Let’s look at an example your site gives…
“Darwin predicted, based on homologies with African apes, that human ancestors arose in Africa. That prediction has been supported by fossil and genetic evidence (Ingman et al. 2000).”

There’s debate whether we ‘arose’ in Africa or not. See the discussion on the multi-linear models of evolution. Darwin believed we rose in Africa and many people find evidence to confirm that, some don’t. Some believe we ‘rose’ in China.
 
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Montalban:
But, you’re not the only one to use tautology to defend it. Even Darwin himself preferred to use a tautology to summarise it; Survival of the Fittest.
For a nice discussion as to why you are wrong about this, see stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/…tautology.html
Peace

Tim
Actually you’re wrong. Many embarrassed apologists try to re-write Darwin out of this mess. First we have the complete denial…
Even talkorigins makes the odd mistakes, so be careful.

“Survival of the fittest” is a poor way to think about evolution. Darwin himself never used the phrase. What Darwin said is that heritable variations lead to differential reproductive success. This is not circular or tautologous. It is a prediction which can be, and has been, experimentally verified [Weiner 1994].

talkorigins.org/indexcc/CA/CA500.html

Then we slip into partial denial, that he might have used it, but only 'cause someone urged him to.

“The phrase ‘survival of the fittest’ was not even Darwin’s. It was urged on him by Wallace, the codiscoverer of natural selection, who hated ‘natural selection’ because he thought it implied that something was doing the selecting. Darwin coined the term ‘natural selection’ because had made an analogy with ‘artificial selection’ as done by breeders, an analogy Wallace hadn’t made when he developed his version of the theory. The phrase ‘survival of the fittest’ was originally due to Herbert Spencer some years before the Origin .”

talkorigins.org/faqs/evolphil/tautology.html

The first states he never used it. The second implies he did, (and he did - see below) BUT after it was urged by Wallace.

“Darwin used the term “natural selection” in his book “On the Origin of Species” but was persuaded that Spencer’s phrase ”survival of the fittest” was probably ‘more convenient’ “
perceptions.couk.com/genes1.html#rst
This is one attempt to minimise his involvement, by saying he was ‘persuaded’.

“Darwin did not believe that the environment was producing the variation within the finch populations. He correctly thought that the variation already existed and that nature just selected for the most suitable beak shape and against less useful ones. Darwin and his supporters ultimately described this process as the ”survival of the fittest.” This is very different from Lamarck’s incorrect idea that the environment altered the shape of individuals and that these acquired changes were then inherited.”
anthro.palomar.edu/evolve/evolve_2.htm

The best twist on this is…

The phrase ‘survival of the fittest’ was not even Darwin’s. It was urged on him by Wallace, the codiscoverer of natural selection, who hated ‘natural selection’ because he thought it implied that something was doing the selecting. Darwin coined the term ‘natural selection’ because had made an analogy with ‘artificial selection’ as done by breeders, an analogy Wallace hadn’t made when he developed his version of the theory. The phrase ‘survival of the fittest’ was originally due to Herbert Spencer some years before the Origin

talkorigins.org/faqs/evolphil/tautology.html

That is, it doesn’t argue that he didn’t use it, just that he didn’t ‘coin’ it. Another attempt at revision.

However, you are just plain wrong…

Look at this chapter from Darwin’s own book

On the Origin Of Species (1859)

Chapter IV: Natural Selection; Or ** the Survival of the Fittest **

infidels.org/library/historical/charles_darwin/origin_of_species/Chapter4.html

From the same source

This preservation of favourable individual differences and variations, and the destruction of those which are injurious, I have called Natural Selection, or the ** Survival of the Fittest.**

And in his own words, he says he preferred this tautology as a descriptor…

“I have called this principle, by which each slight variation, if useful, is preserved, by the term Natural Selection, in order to mark its relation to man’s power of selection. But the expression often used by Mr. Herbert Spencer of the Survival of the Fittest is more accurate,”

tbi.univie.ac.at/Origin/origin_3.html
 
I think we will eventually give way [or make way] for Artificial Intelligence. Intelligence occupying cyber-space.

I think the world will become such an inhospitable place for organic life, humanity will destroy the atomosphere so that it no longer supports life and all the life forms will then be Artificial Intelligence: Computers! They will not need air to breathe. Computers will inherit the earth!

Perhaps God is a super-computer evolved from all eternity 😛
WE ARE BORG! LOL
computers aren’t going to inherit the earth. Computers are stupid. They need someone to program them. Possibly, computers can program other computers; but they will never evolve into anything significant; since the computers can only program what they’ve been programmed to program. People say computers are smart. No. Only the people that created them are smart!
 
con’t…
For a nice discussion as to why you are wrong about this, see stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/gould_tautology.html
And they’re still doing it!
“From time to time, attacks on neo-Darwinism are mounted, usually by persons who either see evolutionary theory as antireligious or who basically misunderstand Darwin’s theory. One attack, entitled “Darwin’s Mistakes,” by Tom Bethell, was published in Harper’s magazine.

Bethell began by pointing out that Darwinian theory is a tautology rather than a predicative theory. (The term tautology means a statement that is true by definition.)* That is, evolution is the survival of the fittest. But who are the fittest? Obviously, the individuals who survive. Thus, without an independent criterion for fitness, other than survival, we are left with the statement that evolution is the survival of the survivors. This indeed is a tautology. But it is possible to assign independent criteria for fitness. Darwin wrote extensively about artificial selection in pigeons, in which the breeders’ choice was the criterion for fitness. (Many novel breeds of pigeon have been created this way.) Artificial selection has been practiced extensively by plant and animal breeders. Here too, survival is not the criterion for fitness, productivity is.”

Robert H Tamarin, (1996) “Principles of Genetics” (5th ed), p571.

So, why are they still teaching this rubbish?

The example used is of artificial survival! Where in nature does nature produce a cow that would die, unless it was milked twice a day? It doesn’t because the cow would die!

“Possible to assign criteria…” where does nature do this?

In other words their proof of survival of the fittest not being a tautology comes not from nature, but from creative and intelligent design!

Your cite does nothing then to repeat this mistake, only to deny it it, by saying that the analogy of artificial breeding is justified. It isn’t because artifical breeding involves an intelligence.
 
Yes, they are still microbes. Because of genetic mutation, the population of those microbes will eventually develop a resistance to antibiotics. That is one example of a genetic mutation being beneficial. That proves that your statement that all genetic mutations die and don’t reproduce.

You want a bigger example? Why? How about the sickle cell trait? Is that a big enough example?

Peace

Tim
How does sickle cell trait equate to a new species? Or how does it help evolutionary theory?

And, as you’re content to simply direct someone to some other site, as if that constitutes a discussion, here you go…
Sickle-cell anaemia does not prove evolution!
answersingenesis.org/creation/v16/i2/anaemia.asp
 
How does sickle cell trait equate to a new species? Or how does it help evolutionary theory?
If you are going to comment, please read the thread! I was replying to an incredibly ignorant comment that ALL GENETIC MUTATIONS DIE AND DON’T REPRODUCE.

Now, if you want to argue that the mutation that causes sickle cell anemia isn’t beneficial in areas where malaria is common, do it. Go ahead. Surely that is easy for you to do, right? No? Then I guess this is one genetic mutation that is beneficial and, yes, does give an advantage leading to reproduction.
And, as you’re content to simply direct someone to some other site, as if that constitutes a discussion, here you go…
Sickle-cell anaemia does not prove evolution!
answersingenesis.org/creation/v16/i2/anaemia.asp
I give links to other sites because the information I would like to refer to is too long to reproduce here. Since we are discussing a scientific topic, I give links to scientific sites. If you are going to direct readers to other sites, why don’t you do the same?

Peace

Tim
 
Your cite does nothing then to repeat this mistake, only to deny it it, by saying that the analogy of artificial breeding is justified. It isn’t because artifical breeding involves an intelligence.
I’m sorry you can’t understand what Gould was writing about.

Peace

Tim
 
I’m sorry you can’t understand what Gould was writing about.
I’m sorry you don’t want to engage in any discussion about the problems of the tautology of “Survival of the Fittest”; I cited a textbook that acknowledges it as a tautology. You simply wish to skip past a mountain of evidence showing that Darwin preferred this a describer for this theory.
If you are going to comment, please read the thread! I was replying to an incredibly ignorant comment that ALL GENETIC MUTATIONS DIE AND DON’T REPRODUCE.
Are you going to answer the question I asked you? I don’t care about what point you are making with someone else. I asked
How does sickle cell trait equate to a new species? Or how does it help evolutionary theory?
Another issue you don’t want to deal with.
Now, if you want to argue that the mutation that causes sickle cell amenia isn’t beneficial in areas where malaria is common, do it. Go ahead. Surely that is easy for you to do, right? No? Then I guess this is one genetic mutation that is beneficial and, yes, does give an advantage leading to reproduction.
I’m not making any claim about it. I asked you a question about it.
I’m sorry that when I ask you a question about a point you raise you have to re-state why you raised it, not answer the question I asked about it, as if that in fact answers the question I asked.
I give links to other sites because the information I would like to refer to is too long to reproduce here.
And so accordingly, have I. I don’t know why you state that you’ve done this. I note that you have, and have done the same. Again you seem to wish to restate something and not deal with what I’ve raised.
Since we are discussing a scientific topic, I give links to scientific sites. If you are going to direct readers to other sites, why don’t you do the same?
Go to the bottom of the page you cited
(stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/gould_tautology.html#see) and click on ‘home-page’ and tell me if that’s a science site.

Anyway, you’re one to avoid questions.
I’ve asked how the sickle cells example helps the case of evolution, you’ve avoided this to talk about you talking to someone else - as if that answers the question I asked you.

I point out where you’re totally wrong about the tautology of “Survival of the Fittest” and you don’t engage me further on that at all, especially in light of the fact that I cite a lot of ‘evidence’, including the words of Darwin himself.

You then go on about how you can’t bother doing anything more than directing someone to some other person’s thoughts. And you claim that it is a science site

Not also, the quotes about Stephen Jay Gould are from the book Philosophy of Biology. The site map of your site puts this under Philosophy of Science so in point of fact your own site doesn’t claim the page you quoted is a science site. So as well as avoiding questions I ask of you, your own style of pointing to other people’s pages comes unstuck because you don’t know what it is you referring to - probably you googled it. (Unless of course you want to argue that Philosophy of Science is science)
 
All I ask it that you provide one scientific source backing your accusations. Should be simple to do. If you can’t, I’ll patiently await your retraction.
This would seem an odd challenge to make by anyone who knows something about claims of knowledge as made by science.

Science (as many understand it)* can’t prove or disprove God. So how one would think that science could back an accusation about Satan would be impossible. However one might argue that science is being used as a tool by some *force *(in this case evil) without needing science to prove that evil exists. Just as one might say that tobacco companies are using science (or rather mis-using it) to justify their indecent practices, without needing to show that science can prove the concept of indecent practices

And this of course points to the limits of science with regards a system of understanding truths. Science can be used to show that it is being used indecently. Another system of beliefs over-arching science must be employed. Though some people put science first in all areas of life, but this is ‘Scientism’ which is logically flawed
The first thing to notice about scientism is that it makes a fundamental assertion about reality. Scientism says, “science is the only way of obtaining true knowledge of reality.” This statement, however, cannot itself be verified by the methods of science."

integralscience.org/questioning.html

*A great many scientists view science through materialistic notions of being.
 
Feel free to argue or disagree with the argument. Perhaps we can rationalize or come to a better understanding of what I am trying to say.
I debated these points before, and ultimately I’ve concluded that Darwin has constructed a very plausible theory of nature that, in its every particular, reinforced the operating assumptions of the Industrial Age he lived in.

For example, he saw the same principles of division of labor at work in nature. After reading Malthus, he came to realize that, as in human society, populations bred beyond their means, leaving survivors and losers in the effort to exist.

Likewise, in the first volume of A System of Synthetic Philosophy, entitled First Principles (1862), Spencer argued that all phenomena could be explained in terms of a lengthy process of evolution in things. This account of evolution provided a complete and ‘predetermined’ structure for the kind of variation noted by Darwin – and Darwin’s respect for Spencer was significant.

Darwin’s descriptions relied heavily on machine imagery. He came to personally view livings things as the sum total of parts assembled . Even the origins of life were seen within the biological equivalent of nature s assembly line (morphology from micro-organisms straight up to humanity).

In short, Darwin borrowed just about everything he experienced from the popular culture of his time and transposed them onto nature.

I confess that evolution is no longer percieved within the 19th century concept of linear progress – the assembly line of life if you will. Rather, it seems to be a long-term tendency and a trend.

Yet it still in no way precludes crisis and lengthy setbacks. In fact, such crisis seem to be an unavoidable part of evolution. Although life continues to expand, it has also suffered repeated crisis and mass extinctions which continue to occur when one global ecosystem has reached its limits and collapses.

Obviously the theory has changed since Darwins’ time. Yet, to some extent, people are still consistently seeing a pattern where our origins of life are seen within the similar context of the biological equivalent of the scientific method.

In other words, the theory of evolution seems to be a mirror image of the scientific method broadcast over the origins of species.

Noting an analogy between the scientific method’s “trial and error” (or “prediction and modification”) and comparing it to evolutionary theories’ “natural selection and mutation” – it appears to be, at least on some level, exactly what a scientifically minded person would expect to find.

In other words, if God indeed used evolution in the same way that some scientists perceive him doing so, then it would appear that God himself is actually akin to the Great Experimenter– using trial and error through multifarious mutations and extinctions in order to produce humanity.

Don’t get me wrong. I definitely believe that God used and still uses evolution. I just highly reject the Blind Watchmaker mentality that superimposes the purposeless of creation. I also think there are limits that one should use when saying they ‘believe in evolution’.

Like Otto Rank, I too suspect that Darwin’s theory was in some ways the English bourgeosie looking into the mirror of nature and seeing their own behavior reflected there.

In many ways, the theory of evolution seems to be evolving right along with the various cultures it has been accepted in the most. It has been held up as a product of societal thinking rather than a reflection of mind-independent reality.

Gould himself had written before passing on:
S.J. Gould:
Science, since people must do it, is a socially embedded activity. It progresses by hunch, vision, and intuition. Much of its change through time does not record a closer approach to absolute truth, but the alternative of cultural contexts that influence it so strongly. Facts are not pure and unsullied bit of information; culture also influences what we see and how we see it.
He had also said:
S.J. Gould:
Theories are not inexorable inductions from facts. The most creative theories are often imaginative visions imposed upon facts, the source of imagination is also strongly cultural.
The key debate is this discourse is that grey area between objectivity and subjectivity:

Does science obey certain disinterested norms or rules, designed or guaranteed to tell us something about the real world, or is it a reflection of personal preference, the things in culture that people hold dear?

I’m quite sure of that those who hold evolutionary views are not immune to this personal preference which they hold so dear. While genuine science is indeed being conducted within evolutionary circles, I too will note that it is also seems combined somewhat with a reflection of their personal preference as well.

No one is immune to this-- and only time will tell how much of either is true, just as God himself reveals.
 
I debated these points before, and ultimately I’ve concluded that Darwin has constructed a very plausible theory of nature that, in its every particular, reinforced the operating assumptions of the Industrial Age he lived in.
An excellent post!

As noted in another thread Darwin found evidence in evolution that matched his own outlook…
Darwin postulated that females are ‘‘coy,’’ mating rarely and choosing their mates carefully, presumably betting their odds on the males with the best genes to contribute to their offspring. For their part, males are ‘‘ardent’’ and promiscuous, and fight amongst themselves for female partners. Later theories added that males are promiscuous because they have less to lose by making babies - unlike eggs, sperm are plentiful and small. Plus, females usually do most of the work to raise the offspring”
eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2003-02/su-sag021003.php
See also
stanford.edu/dept/news/report/news/2003/february19/aaassocialselection219.html

“In the mid-nineteenth century, social Darwinists invoked evolutionary biology to argue that a woman was a man whose evolution - both physical and mental - had been arrested in a primitive stage. In this same period, doctors used their authority as scientists to discourage women’s attempts to gain access to higher education. Women’s intellectual development, it was argued, would proceed only at great cost to reproductive development. As the brain developed, so the logic went, the ovaries shrivel. In the twentieth century, scientists have given modern dress to these prejudices. Arguments for women’s different (and inferior) nature have been based on hormonal research, brain lateralization, and sociobiology.?
Londa Schiebinger, “History and Philosophy”, in Sex and Scientific Inquiry, eds. Sandra Harding and Jean F. O’Barr, (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1987), p. 26-27.
Quoted at: dean.sbc.edu/bart.html
Feminists claim that evolution, long the domain of men has present biased accounts of science in order to explain gender.
“Men’s claims to “know” women’s natures, abilities, limitations, and so forth have been a fundamental element of feminist criticisms since its genesis, primarily because it is precisely these claims which are used to justify the social and political subordination of women.”
Ibid.
 
The key debate is this discourse is that grey area between objectivity and subjectivity:
One of the strengths of Darwinism is that it can be used by almost any group to prove their stance…
For example, Marxists claim to have a special insight into science…applying Maxian ideas of construction to science…
“ According to the traditional ‘internalist’ view of science, scientists make up their minds on scientific issues primarily through reason, argument and evidence. Other factors may be involved, but they should be weeded out.”
stephenjaygould.org/reviews/hull_sociobiology.html

“In Marxism, groups are more important than individuals. Capitalists view nature as competitive, whereas these Marxist critics tend to view it as being much more cooperative.”
Ibid.

Thus Marxists argue that man was a species that survived through the co-operation with others. Also, through the use of his hands to create tools, and thus become a productive being.

Capitalists favour the idea that man struggled with the strongest surviving or dominating - where the weak only survived through some kind of attachment to a stronger individual
 
An argument of creationism mixed with evolution, outstepping the boundaries of current thought::

First off, I’ll say that I personally believe that Jesus Christ is God; but for the atheist’s sake let us say Jesus is not God.

Life is a mystery. All we truly know is that it came to be from the water. It has evolved, as far as we know, to the human being; of which in a human beings dimensions have sprung reason and creativity. Can we agree that a God would in fact take our form so that reason and creativity would be in this God? If a God took any shape, it would necessarily be human form or similar because of all we suggest as a God-being is that God would have reason and creativity. If we can agree that the form of God or an immortal is here already as God would take the human form then we can move on…

Where is life evolving to? It is evident that it has gotten more complex since it’s advent, striving for the human form; as far as we can assess. Thought is always evolving too; as what we knew and what we know will not be the same when we know more. However, what does thought have to do with evolution? Well, we can say that if a God took a form it would necessarily be the human form because as all we consider God to be is a being of reasoning and creativity–all that we currently possess.

Life exists only to exist–to be. Wouldn’t the final step in evolution be the production of an all powerful being. One that could exist forever without tasting death. Immortality is the ultimate goal, that I believe evolution is striving for. And why not? The whole point of life is to live–why would evolution disregard this fact in it’s pursuits.
Does anyone agree with what I’m trying to say–that immortality is the ultimate achievement of evolution?

Feel free to argue or disagree with the argument. Perhaps we can rationalize or come to a better understanding of what I am trying to say.

What I wonder about is what will happen if we have evolved beyond being human by the time of the Second Coming 🙂 - the Gospel was first preached to people who held ideas which gave the world a far shorter past and a far less extensive geography than we are familiar with.​

It’s already been nearly 2,000 years since Jesus was “coming soon”. He very obviously has not come - & if 1900+ years is “soon”, how much longer must we wait ? Ten thousand ? Twenty thousand ? Fifty thousand ? A million ? In a million years’ time we may be squlgy pale green things with enormous backsides, long spindly arms, and bulbous multiple eyes on stalks, perfectly adapted to being TV & DVD-watching couch potatoes.

I’m not entirely convinced. One of the disputants in Cicero’s “Nature of the Gods” criticizes the Epicurean who spoke before him, for being so sure that the gods would necessarily be in human form. He pointed out that horses might well imagine - were they to speculate on such matters - that a god worshipped by horses might well be equine in form, & not human at all.

Maybe, if horses needed a redeemer, a Saviour of horses would “become horse” and be “Inequinate” as a pit pony in Wales. This could be difficult for other creatures, because it is not clear that a God-Horse would be equipped to deal with the sins of non-equine creatures. Unless being Incarnate as man involves being equipped to deal with the sins (if there be any) of creatures below man. The idea of man as the summit of material creation may be true for us, as we are men - but only in a relative sense; other creatures may occupy the same position with respect to their own understanding of the world: if fleas had a Genesis 1, it might give to fleas the position that the human Genesis 1 gives to humans 🙂 ##
 
I’m not entirely convinced. One of the disputants in Cicero’s “Nature of the Gods” criticizes the Epicurean who spoke before him, for being so sure that the gods would necessarily be in human form. He pointed out that horses might well imagine - were they to speculate on such matters - that a god worshipped by horses might well be equine in form, & not human at all.
If we’re into Cicero…
What did he think about animals and gods in human form?
“…what use is the pig, except to be eaten?”
Cicero. “The Nature of the Gods”, (Penguin Classics), p187.
Code:
“...it is more natural to model oneself on Hercules.”
Cicero. “Selected Works”, (Penguin Classics), p167.

However getting back on topic, on the issue of random chance causing everything, which is evolution, Cicero said…

At this point must I not marvel that there should be anyone who can persuade himself that there are certain solid and indivisible particles of matter borne along by the force of gravity, and that the fortuitous collision of those particles produces this elaborate and beautiful world? I cannot understand why he who considers it possible for this to have occurred should not also think that, if a countless number of copies of the one-and-twenty letters of the alphabet, made of gold or what you will, were thrown on the ground, it would be possible that they should produce the Annals of Ennius, all ready made for the reader”

De natura deorum, II.xxxvii

quoted

Barham, J “Why I am Not a Darwinist”, in Dembski, W. A. (ed) “Uncommon Dissent: Intellectuals who Find Darwinism Unconvincing”, p182.
 
If we’re into Cicero…
What did he think about animals and gods in human form?
“…what use is the pig, except to be eaten?”
Cicero. “The Nature of the Gods”, (Penguin Classics), p187.

“…it is more natural to model oneself on Hercules.”

Cicero. “Selected Works”, (Penguin Classics), p167.

Neither point addresses those in the post - 🙂 TY for illustrating my point 🙂

However getting back on topic, on the issue of random chance causing everything, which is evolution, Cicero said…

That was addressing the topic - because, if we really do have all these milliards of centuries to play with, and not a “mere” six or ten thousand years; & if evolution is a fact: then it is not clear that the human race is not going to evolve.​

And it is not an unarguable fact that the human race (or what is now the human race):
  • won’t stop being human - if we are descended from (say) vole-like creatures, we can (surely ?) evolve from our present biological form to something not recognisably human (see post) 🙂
  • Yet the OP’s argument seems to require that the human form is the most “appropriate” for our relation to God. I don’t see, any more than the Stoic critic of the Epicurean in Cicero, any reason for us to think so highly of our own form - which is why there was all that about horses & flies. That we can in fact relate to God, does not show that our human nature is the only nature capable of such a relation. “Man can be related to God” =/= “Flies cannot relate to God”.
    If human evolution is even a possible, it creates a difficulty for belief in the Second Coming; as explained. That is not a reason to deny it can happen.
At this point must I not marvel that there should be anyone who can persuade himself that there are certain solid and indivisible particles of matter borne along by the force of gravity, and that the fortuitous collision of those particles produces this elaborate and beautiful world? I cannot understand why he who considers it possible for this to have occurred should not also think that, if a countless number of copies of the one-and-twenty letters of the alphabet, made of gold or what you will, were thrown on the ground, it would be possible that they should produce the Annals of Ennius, all ready made for the reader”

De natura deorum, II.xxxvii

quoted

Barham, J “Why I am Not a Darwinist”, in Dembski, W. A. (ed) “Uncommon Dissent: Intellectuals who Find Darwinism Unconvincing”, p182.

That sounds like the aeroplane in the junkyard 🙂 (I’m not an atomist of any kind BTW.)​

That argument is interesting, but not fatal to a belief in evolution: Cicero’s debaters did not have to bother with the same* data* as evolutionists today; the intellectual premises of the two groups are significantly different. Evolution =/= Darwinism, any more than Catholic or Scholastic theology = Thomism; had Darwin had no intellectual successors, the two might be taken as identical. Evolution can be as random as wanted - that does not make it anti-Christian; randomness as such is not a reason to deny it.

FWIW I believe in the validity of the hypothesis of evolution because, though I know 0 about the sciences involved, people like certain OPs 🙂 do. I don’t believe in the validity of using the Bible as a source of scientific info - certain ideas about it, if true, mean certain objections to evolution are false. As for the difficulties of evolution - of course there are difficulties. But that is not the remotest justification for ditching all possible evolutionary ideas; people are for ever finding difficulties in the Bible, but that is no reason to reject it. BTW: difficulties in evolution =/= justification for accepting the Bible as a source on science. ##
 
Neither point addresses those in the post -
Excepting for the fact he thought animals (at least one) had a purpse - being eaten, recall your comments about animals having souls - or a ‘higher’ purpose as many seem to call it

The Greco-Roman pantheon tends to have gods that look like us.
That was addressing the topic - because, if we really do have all these milliards of centuries to play with, and not a “mere” six or ten thousand years; & if evolution is a fact: then it is not clear that the human race is not going to evolve.
Why can’t evolution have 6-10,000 years? Some believe God created all *types *of animals and they evolved into more specific examples (species). Thus God created a dog type that evolved into all types of dogs
 
Evolution isn’t perfect, nor is it fact but it fits the situation we have quite well, and is supported by evidence.

But Creationism is not backed up by any scientific fact. We have radiocarbon dated fossils that go beyond Ussher’s date for the creation of the world.

If you don’t believe in evolution, what is your alternative?
 
Evolution isn’t perfect, nor is it fact but it fits the situation we have quite well, and is supported by evidence.
I’ve read where it’s both a fact and a theory, depends who’s discussing this with me.
But Creationism is not backed up by any scientific fact.
Depends if you’re talking about that which is called “Creation Science” or something else.

My personal belief: I have stated in the past that I accept the late Fr. Seraphim Rose’s words on the literal creation…
“Some Protestant fundamentalists tell us it is all (or virtually all) 'literal.” But such a view places us in some impossible difficulties: quite apart form our literal or non-literal interpretation of various passages, the very nature of the reality which is described in the first chapters of genesis the very creation of all things) makes it quite impossible for everything to be understood ‘literally’; we don’t even have words, for example, to describe ‘literally’ how something can come from nothing. How does God “speak”? - does He make a noise which resounds in an atmosphere that doesn’t yet exist?”
Fr Seraphim Rose, (2000) “Genesis Creation and Early Man: The Orthodox Christian Vision”, (Saint Herman of Alaska Brotherhood; Platina, CA), p69
We have radiocarbon dated fossils that go beyond Ussher’s date for the creation of the world.
And this depends on the accuracy of radiocarbon dating.
If you don’t believe in evolution, what is your alternative?
Which evolution are we talking about?

Darwinism depends wholly on chance. There are some who accept evolution, but with God involved.
 
I’ve read where it’s both a fact and a theory, depends who’s discussing this with me.

**If they call it a fact, they are in error. It is a strong theory. Nothing more. Especially since it describes the past. **

Depends if you’re talking about that which is called “Creation Science” or something else.

**Intelligent Design is fine- it does not reject scientific answers as false. **

My personal belief: I have stated in the past that I accept the late Fr. Seraphim Rose’s words on the literal creation…
“Some Protestant fundamentalists tell us it is all (or virtually all) 'literal.” But such a view places us in some impossible difficulties: quite apart form our literal or non-literal interpretation of various passages, the very nature of the reality which is described in the first chapters of genesis the very creation of all things) makes it quite impossible for everything to be understood ‘literally’; we don’t even have words, for example, to describe ‘literally’ how something can come from nothing. How does God “speak”? - does He make a noise which resounds in an atmosphere that doesn’t yet exist?”
Fr Seraphim Rose, (2000) “Genesis Creation and Early Man: The Orthodox Christian Vision”, (Saint Herman of Alaska Brotherhood; Platina, CA), p69

**I agree 👍 **

And this depends on the accuracy of radiocarbon dating.

**These fossils are dated to millions of years old- you’re not going to turn around and say they are actually a few thousand years old. That’s crazy. **

Which evolution are we talking about?

**Micro-evolution we all accept, I think. So we’re talking macro-evolution: ape-like ancestors to us. **

Darwinism depends wholly on chance. There are some who accept evolution, but with God involved.
That’s me!
 
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