EWTN's TLM for the Immaculate Heart/Queenship of Mary

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Brian777

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I watched the Mass this morning after praying the Mass prayers out of my 1962 missal earlier. I was a tad confused when the schola took a bit long to chant the gradual. I was wondering if there was a sequence that i missed in the missal. I went back and looked, there was none. Does anyone know if they were singing something else with the gradual?Also, Fr. Dominic did not prayer the commorative prayers for St. Timothy and Companions, martyrs. Why was that? Just curious if anyone could tell me why the prayers weren’t said.

Overall it was a beautiful Mass, i enjoyed it. I have attended 8 TLMs so far and watched several of EWTN’s.

God bless you all.
 
I did not watch the Mass and so can’t speak about the gradual. Is there a recorded version somewhere that people who missed can watch?

The commemoration was omitted because it was not a Low Mass.
Brian777 said:
I watched the Mass this morning after praying the Mass prayers out of my 1962 missal earlier. I was a tad confused when the schola took a bit long to chant the gradual. I was wondering if there was a sequence that i missed in the missal. I went back and looked, there was none. Does anyone know if they were singing something else with the gradual?Also, Fr. Dominic did not prayer the commorative prayers for St. Timothy and Companions, martyrs. Why was that? Just curious if anyone could tell me why the prayers weren’t said.

Overall it was a beautiful Mass, i enjoyed it. I have attended 8 TLMs so far and watched several of EWTN’s.

God bless you all.
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Thankyou, i recall that practice now.

and yes i believe EWTN’s website will eventually have a video of the Mass, or maybe just the sermon, they have done either or in the past.
 
There are several layers of things happening at that mass.
  1. St. Timothy and companions are not Franciscan feasts. Therefore, they are not on the Franciscan lliturgical calendar. The mass was celebrated in a private chapel of the Franciscan Order. It has to follow the Franciscan calendar.
  2. The collect was not done because it was a high mass.
  3. The Franciscans can only celebrate the EF form that goes as far back as the Roman-Franciscan Missal of 1963 in their chapels. If they’re in a diocesan or secular parish, they go by those rules. But the abbey is part of the Franciscan order, ot the universal Church. The priests who celebrate mass there must use the rules of t Franciscan Liturgical Commission, even if they are FSSP. To their compliment, the FSSP does a wonderful job at accommodating without it being very noticeable. I beleive that it flows smoothly, because the Franciscan Friars of the Eternal Word take a very discrete place during the liturgy. If you notice, very few of them are present.
  4. If the friars were present on the sanctuary, they would have to preside at the mass. It’s their chapel. They have jurisdiction. A priest of a higher order does not surrender jurisdiction to one of a lower order. It is more discrete if they blend into the crow. These frees to visitor to celebrate without discomfort or breaking rules.
  5. The the Immaculate is not celebrated by the universal Church that day. It’s only celebrated by Franciscans that day. That changed some things around too. They visiting priests were able to celebrate it, because there was no conflict between their calendar and the Franciscan calendar.
It is very confusing at times, but it is quite beautiful too, especially to watch two traditions collaborate in charity.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
I’m somewhat scratchign my head because I feel i’ve miunderstood what you were trying to say at certain bits.
JReducation said:
There are several layers of things happening at that mass.
  1. St. Timothy and companions are not Franciscan feasts. Therefore, they are not on the Franciscan lliturgical calendar. The mass was celebrated in a private chapel of the Franciscan Order. It has to follow the Franciscan calendar.
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No, however, they are in the Seraphic missal of 1962/3, and are commemorated. However, as they was a High Mass, according to the rules of the same missal they are not, as you noted below.
  1. The collect was not done because it was a high mass.
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  1. The Franciscans can only celebrate the EF form that goes as far back as the Roman-Franciscan Missal of 1963 in their cha is part of the Franciscan order, ot the universal Church. The priests who celebrate mass there must use the rules of t Franciscan Liturgical Commission, even if they are FSSP. To their compliment, the FSSP does a wonderful job at accommodating without it being very noticeable. I beleive that it flows smoothly, because the Franciscan Friapels. If they’re in a diocesan or secular parish, they go by those rules. But the abbeyrs of the Eternal Word take a very discrete place during the liturgy. If you notice, very few of them are present.
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  1. If the friars were present on the sanctuary, they would have to preside at the mass. It’s their chapel. They have jurisdiction. A priest of a higher order does not surrender jurisdiction to one of a lower order. It is more discrete if they blend into the crow. These frees to visitor to celebrate without discomfort or breaking rules.
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Was this Mass not celebrated by the MFVA friars and not the FSSP?
  1. The the Immaculate is not celebrated by the universal Church that day. It’s only celebrated by Franciscans that day. That changed some things around too. They visiting priests were able to celebrate it, because there was no conflict between their calendar and the Franciscan calendar.
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It is celebrated in the universal church by those who attend the TLM, and is on the older Seraphic calendar. The newer (post 1970) Franciscan calendar and the NO both observe the Queenship, no?
 
AJV said:
I’m somewhat scratchign my head because I feel i’ve miunderstood what you were trying to say at certain bits.

No, however, they are in the Seraphic missal of 1962/3, and are commemorated. However, as they was a High Mass, according to the rules of the same missal they are not, as you noted below.
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This is true. But the Seraphic Missal was renewed in 1963 and the Roman-Franciscan Missal took it’s place. Some things were left as they were. Other things were moved to insert newer saints of the order and for local reasons. I’m not sure what the story is behind Timothy et al.
Was this Mass not celebrated by the MFVA friars and not the FSSP?
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The mass was celebrated by secular priests. When you watch these masses, look at their heads. Franciscans may only wear a capuche or a yamulke. These were clearly secular priests, not friars. I’m not sure if they were St. Peter or Christ the King, because I tuned in after the introductions had been made.

The Conference of Franciscan Major Superiors of Men does not allow for the celebration of the EF in Franciscan chapels and oratories, because you can’t concelebrate it. For Franciscans, fraternity and equality between all the friars be reflected in the community’s liturgy. Therefore, when you celebrate the EF in a Franciscan house, the friars discretely back off. This gives priests of a lower order the authority to preside.

By the way, a lower order means lower ranking. If it’s your house, you outrank the visitor. If you’re a bishop, you outrank everyone else. If you’re the superior, you also outrank everyone else.
It is celebrated in the universal church by those who attend the TLM, and is on the older Seraphic calendar. The newer (post 1970) Franciscan calendar and the NO both observe the Queenship, no?
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If the Queenship of Mary is celebrated in a parish it is celebrated on the same day as the universal church. If it is celebrated in a Franciscan house, it is celebrated on the Feast of the Portiuncula, because Francis was commanded by Mary to observe it that day and the Church has approved it. The Feast of the Portiuncula has a plenary indulgence for whomever observes it for eight days. The Queenship does not have the extraordinary indulgence.

Hope this helps.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
If the Queenship of Mary is celebrated in a parish it is celebrated on the same day as the universal church. If it is celebrated in a Franciscan house, it is celebrated on the Feast of the Portiuncula, because Francis was commanded by Mary to observe it that day and the Church has approved it. The Feast of the Portiuncula has a plenary indulgence for whomever observes it for eight days. The Queenship does not have the extraordinary indulgence.

Hope this helps.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF
Having before me the Roman Seraphic Missal, Brother, it seems that you are confusing the two celebrations. 2 August commemorates the dedication of the famous chapel - and has so for centuries. Columbus set sail on this date in 1492 only after having had his crews take advantage of the Portiuncula Indulgence. This feast is proper to the Seraphic calendar.

The Immaculate Heart commemoration obtains in the same Franciscan Missal on 22 August, the same as it does for the rest of the Traditional Calendar observants. There are no mentions of the 22 August Mass being celebrated on 2 August in the rubrics.

Perhaps you can mention the sources from which you are garnering your offerings?

fpf
 
I also saw the EWTN latin Mass here in Ireland. I thought it was very beautiful and solemn and unrushed. All Mases are beautiful, but EWTN celebrate the Mass with great reverance. It is a great pity that sometimes Mass is so rushed, and so little time to pray after Holy Communion. In years gone by the Priest always sat down for a time after Communion and gave time for reflection, and private prayer and thanksgiving.
Thank you Br. JR. for your explaination, I always enjoy your comments.
God Bless 🙂
 
It was the Franciscan Friars who celebrated the Mass. Fr. Dominc Mary was the principle celebrant and Fr. Miguel was the subdeacon and Father (I dont know his name) was the deacon. I was confused as to why they were not wearing there habits beneath the vestments though.
 
I read somewhere that they were following the Convetual Franciscans by wearing the biretta rather than the hoods.
 
CathMass said:
I read somewhere that they were following the Convetual Franciscans by wearing the biretta rather than the hoods.
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ah that would make sense, also i do believe that the Franciscans do allow the celebration of the TLM, because there is a great video on YT called “Sandals and Fiddlebacks” about Franciscans and their celebration of the TLM. check it out, anyone.
 
Brian777 said:
ah that would make sense, also i do believe that the Franciscans do allow the celebration of the TLM, because there is a great video on YT called “Sandals and Fiddlebacks” about Franciscans and their celebration of the TLM. check it out, anyone.
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The friars of the entire Franciscan family are allowed to celebrate the EF as long as it is not the ordinary conventual mass. This means that within the religious house the EF must remain the extraordinary form, not the ordinary form. You can’t have it as the daily mass of the convent friars, nuns, sisters, brothers and secular Fraciscans. But you can have it for special celebrations. An individual friar may even petition his superior for permission to celebrate it daily, just not for the community.

The reason that the Council of Superiors General did not approve it as the exclusive mass for the order was two-fold. 1) It does not allow for concelebration and the order places a high value on the fraternal dimension of the conventual mass and 2) Latin is no longer the official language of the order. Therefore, many friars no longer speak Latin. The order has four official langauges: Italian, Spanish, French, and English. The other language groups of the order use one of these languages for official writing and celebrations. The official langauge at the six generalates is Italian: OFM, OFM Conv, OFM Cap, TOR, OSF, and SFO. The Poor Clares use the national language of their foundation.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
that is highly interesting, tell me though, do you know if the Franciscan Rite of the mass is still in use anywhere? I know some Dominicans, Carthusians, etc, use their respective rites but i wasnt sure how long the Franciscan form survived.
 
The Mass of the Immaculate Heart of the BVM is celebrated in the EF kalendar on 22 August. This is not limited to Franciscans.
 
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