Ex 19:6 Kingdom of Priests

[garysibio]

I’ve been watching EWTN’s series on the book of Exodus with Tim Gray. In his explanation Gray says that God originally intended that all of His chosen people would be priests but, because they all worshipped the golden calf except the Levites, only the Levites actually bercame priests.

When discussing the priesthood of all believers with Protestants, which they take from 1 Pet 2:9, which quotes Ex 19:6, to ‘‘disprove’’ the Catholic priesthood, I would point to the Exodus passage and the existence of a special priestly class (the Levites), to show that the Catholic priesthood did not contradict the priesthood of all believers. However, if Gray is correct, it ruins my argument.

In thinking about it I came to the conclusion that Gray must be wrong about this. Here’s my reasoning: If the Jewish priesthood was limited because of the golden calf incident, then there would have to be something similar to limit the NT priesthood to just ordained priests. However, we had ordained priests prior to the time when 1 Peter was written so there was no time when such an event could have occurred.

Comments anyone?

Gary

 

[NotWorthy]

I’ve been watching EWTN’s series on the book of Exodus with Tim Gray. In his explanation Gray says that God originally intended that all of His chosen people would be priests but, because they all worshipped the golden calf except the Levites, only the Levites actually bercame priests.

When discussing the priesthood of all believers with Protestants, which they take from 1 Pet 2:9, which quotes Ex 19:6, to ‘‘disprove’’ the Catholic priesthood, I would point to the Exodus passage and the existence of a special priestly class (the Levites), to show that the Catholic priesthood did not contradict the priesthood of all believers. However, if Gray is correct, it ruins my argument.

In thinking about it I came to the conclusion that Gray must be wrong about this. Here’s my reasoning: If the Jewish priesthood was limited because of the golden calf incident, then there would have to be something similar to limit the NT priesthood to just ordained priests. However, we had ordained priests prior to the time when 1 Peter was written so there was no time when such an event could have occurred.

Comments anyone?

Gary

Why do you feel this is true (the underlined part). The OT is full of lessons from other’s mistakes, but we don’t need to re-learn those lessons in the New Covenant Church.

Besides, I haven’t found too many (if any) mistakes in Tim Gray’s reasonings over the years.

 

[Seraphim25]

I’ve been watching EWTN’s series on the book of Exodus with Tim Gray. In his explanation Gray says that God originally intended that all of His chosen people would be priests but, because they all worshipped the golden calf except the Levites, only the Levites actually bercame priests.

When discussing the priesthood of all believers with Protestants, which they take from 1 Pet 2:9, which quotes Ex 19:6, to ‘‘disprove’’ the Catholic priesthood, I would point to the Exodus passage and the existence of a special priestly class (the Levites), to show that the Catholic priesthood did not contradict the priesthood of all believers. However, if Gray is correct, it ruins my argument.

In thinking about it I came to the conclusion that Gray must be wrong about this. Here’s my reasoning: If the Jewish priesthood was limited because of the golden calf incident, then there would have to be something similar to limit the NT priesthood to just ordained priests. However, we had ordained priests prior to the time when 1 Peter was written so there was no time when such an event could have occurred.

Comments anyone?

Gary

We all are called to be priests. Think about it for a second…If we are supposed to be Christ like then of course we would have to be priets. The Nation of Israel was a kingdom of preists because they honored the true living God. As such they were also suppose to imitate God. However, the Preist hood of the OT and the NT is set in place for a lot of reasons. God is a God of order and so thier must be some sort of order. Without direction everybody would believe what he/she wanted to.
Priests nowadays hold the body of Christ with such high esteem and sacredness which needs to be, they are the ones that help keep things in line. Though they aren’t any better off than you or I they are given a great responsibility. And with that responsibility God as entrusted them to instruct, teach, and to keep his sons/daughters in the one fold. Christ is the head but he sent the apostles to imitate Christ when he himself was set on earth. And he also sends us to spread the word and so we are ALL priests in some way or another. Read Corinthians and you will find a very clear understanding of how Gods order works. Each of us has a special gift or talent that God has bestowed upon each and every one of us. Wether it is knowledge, wisdom, healing, prophecy, teachers, we ALL need eachother. He gives an excellent analogy that just as we have many body parts we need them ALL to function properly. In the same way the body of Christ is thus likewise. We need ALL to cooperate with each other and say Not to ourselves I don’t need you or I don’t need this. For we are causing division in the body and thus not showing love for each other. Therefore we need to relay on each other for guidence and to participate in whorship of God in Unity as ONE just as God is ONE!
It is so amazing to be called a son/daughter to God because it is such an honor. I don’t deserve it but nonetheless he has granted it through our Lord. Amen, Amen give thanks to God in Heaven and peace to his people on Earth. I love you Lord with all my heart, mind and soul. Keep us oh Lord in your bosom in all that we do!

 

[Franciscan]

I’ve been watching EWTN’s series on the book of Exodus with Tim Gray. In his explanation Gray says that God originally intended that all of His chosen people would be priests but, because they all worshipped the golden calf except the Levites, only the Levites actually bercame priests.

When discussing the priesthood of all believers with Protestants, which they take from 1 Pet 2:9, which quotes Ex 19:6, to ‘‘disprove’’ the Catholic priesthood, I would point to the Exodus passage and the existence of a special priestly class (the Levites), to show that the Catholic priesthood did not contradict the priesthood of all believers. However, if Gray is correct, it ruins my argument.

In thinking about it I came to the conclusion that Gray must be wrong about this. Here’s my reasoning: If the Jewish priesthood was limited because of the golden calf incident, then there would have to be something similar to limit the NT priesthood to just ordained priests. However, we had ordained priests prior to the time when 1 Peter was written so there was no time when such an event could have occurred.

Comments anyone?

Gary

I see your point. It’s a pretty good question…Some things to consider,

The Catholic priesthood borrows some things and not others from the Levitical priesthood. They are not born into it. The offerings are not animals.

The Catholic priesthood doesn’t have to mirror the Levitiical priesthoodsince it is ‘in the order of Melchizedek’. (Heb 7) not Levi.

The issue of being set apart as an ordained priesthood was not as a result of punishment(as in the Old) but as a result of blessing(and calling).

The Apostles were set apart in their authority and consequently in the higher level of priesthood. They represent not just one tribe but as 12, they represent the fullness of the People of God(regardless of tribe).

 

[Nita]

In thinking about it I came to the conclusion that Gray must be wrong about this. Here’s my reasoning: If the Jewish priesthood was limited because of the golden calf incident, then there would have to be something similar to limit the NT priesthood to just ordained priests. However, we had ordained priests prior to the time when 1 Peter was written so there was no time when such an event could have occurred.

Comments anyone?

Gary

**Your mistake is in thinking that the NT has to follow the pattern of the OT. **

There is a NT priesthood because Jesus established one. In it, Jesus Himself is the only high priest. The ministerial priesthood was limited right from the start by Our Lord’s choice. (He chose only twelve to be His apostles and directed them directed them to continue the offering of the New Covenant sacrifice - a priestly duty.).
Luke 22:19 And he took bread, and when he had given thanks he broke it and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” 22:20 And likewise the cup after supper, saying, "This cup which is poured out for you is the** new covenant in my blood**.
You will find interesting comparisons to make between the OT and NT ministerial priesthoods; but the reasons for their limitation to only certain individuals differs.

 

[victus]

I’ve been watching EWTN’s series on the book of Exodus with Tim Gray. In his explanation Gray says that God originally intended that all of His chosen people would be priests but, because they all worshipped the golden calf except the Levites, only the Levites actually bercame priests.

When discussing the priesthood of all believers with Protestants, which they take from 1 Pet 2:9, which quotes Ex 19:6, to ‘‘disprove’’ the Catholic priesthood, I would point to the Exodus passage and the existence of a special priestly class (the Levites), to show that the Catholic priesthood did not contradict the priesthood of all believers. However, if Gray is correct, it ruins my argument.

In thinking about it I came to the conclusion that Gray must be wrong about this. Here’s my reasoning: If the Jewish priesthood was limited because of the golden calf incident, then there would have to be something similar to limit the NT priesthood to just ordained priests. However, we had ordained priests prior to the time when 1 Peter was written so there was no time when such an event could have occurred.

Comments anyone?

Gary

I think Tim Gray is wrong on this. I heard other Catholics(Scott Hahn) use the idea of the royal priesthood(kingdom of priests) and a ministerial priesthood for the Old Covenant, as a prefiguring for the New Covenant(Even the CCC says this). Maybe Tim Gray means that God knew to choose the Levites only because they weren’t part of the golden calf incident, but that he was already going to choose a ministerial priesthood.

 

[garysibio]

Why do you feel this is true (the underlined part). The OT is full of lessons from other’s mistakes, but we don’t need to re-learn those lessons in the New Covenant Church.

Besides, I haven’t found too many (if any) mistakes in Tim Gray’s reasonings over the years.

The implication of what Gray was saying is that all of God’s old covenant people would have functioned as Levites had they not worshiped the calf. Now St. Peter is saying that we - God’s people under the new covenant - are all priests. If Gray is right about the Jews, then St. Peter’s use of the same verse would indicate that there should be no special priesthood for God’s people today. However, we have a priesthood today in which all believers do not share. Our situation is identical to the Jews. Gray points to the golden calf as the reason why God decided that not all old covenant believers were to function as Levites. Therefore, following his logic, something must have happened to change God’s mind about His new covenant people. Either that or He just changed His mind for no good reason which, the Bible says, is impossible (Num 23:19).

I hope I’m making myself clear.

Gary

 

[NotWorthy]

OK, now I understand (at least I think I do) where you are coming from.

In the OT, there were 3 levels of priests.
Israel was a kingdom of priests.
Israel had the Levitical priesthood to offer up the sacrifices.
Israel had the high priest who atoned for their sins once each year.

The Church is a kingdom of priests
The Church has a priesthood to offer up the Eucharist each day.
The Church has a high priest, Jesus, who atones for our sins continually.

 

[garysibio]

OK, now I understand (at least I think I do) where you are coming from.

In the OT, there were 3 levels of priests.
Israel was a kingdom of priests.
Israel had the Levitical priesthood to offer up the sacrifices.
Israel had the high priest who atoned for their sins once each year.

The Church is a kingdom of priests
The Church has a priesthood to offer up the Eucharist each day.
The Church has a high priest, Jesus, who atones for our sins continually.

Yes, but according to Tim Gray, under the OT, #2 existed because of the worship of the golden calf. If all of the chosen people under the old covenant were not priests like the Levites because of the golden calf, why are not all believers (new covenant) priests who could offer the Eucharist since there is no new covenant equivalent of the golden calf?

I’m not saying that we should all be priests. That’s why I have a problem with Gray’s view of Ex 19:6. If he is right, all Catholics should be priests.

I hope that clarifies things.

Gary

 

[NotWorthy]

Yes, but according to Tim Gray, under the OT, #2 existed because of the worship of the golden calf. If all of the chosen people under the old covenant were not priests like the Levites because of the golden calf, why are not all believers (new covenant) priests who could offer the Eucharist since there is no new covenant equivalent of the golden calf?

I’m not saying that we should all be priests. That’s why I have a problem with Gray’s view of Ex 19:6. If he is right, all Catholics should be priests.

I hope that clarifies things.

Gary

Years ago, I read something by Scott Hahn that echoed Tim Gray’s sentiments. I have no clue where I got it from, but I may stumble across it.

Scott Hahn made it clear (I think it was in his “A Father who Keeps His Promises” book) that the Levitical priesthood was definitely a result of “Calf-Gate”. But I"m not sure of the NT Church.

 

[garysibio]

Years ago, I read something by Scott Hahn that echoed Tim Gray’s sentiments. I have no clue where I got it from, but I may stumble across it.

Scott Hahn made it clear (I think it was in his “A Father who Keeps His Promises” book) that the Levitical priesthood was definitely a result of “Calf-Gate”. But I"m not sure of the NT Church.

“Calf-Gate,” I like that.

Gary

 

[victus]

But didn’t the Golden Calf incident happen after God telling Moses to set aside for him the Levitcal Priesthood?

 

[NotWorthy]

But didn’t the Golden Calf incident happen after God telling Moses to set aside for him the Levitcal Priesthood?

No, after the incident, Moses demands that all who resisted “Calf-Gate” to gather around him. It is the tribe of Levi that surrounds his tent. I believe this is when Moses separated them out of the other 11 tribes to be priests.

 

[victus]

No, after the incident, Moses demands that all who resisted “Calf-Gate” to gather around him. It is the tribe of Levi that surrounds his tent. I believe this is when Moses separated them out of the other 11 tribes to be priests.

But in Exodus 28 we see Aaron and his sons(Levites) being set apart from the others to serve as priests. In Exodus 32 we have the golden calf incident. Is it not possible that the Levites just happened not to partake in the golden calf incident? The golden calf incident aside, to me I think that it just shows that God had and was done in choosing his priests.

 

[Todd_Easton]

I don’t know how this affects the discussion but the tribe of Levi was a post-golden-calf-incident substitute for the first-born from every family and tribe who were consecrated the Lord on the first Passover in Egypt. (Numbers 3:5-13) Perhaps the priesthood of the tribe of Levi should not be considered as distinct from but as the practical representation of the universal priesthood of the whole community; Numbers 3:7 says that the tribe of Levi discharges the obligations of the whole community.

 

[NotWorthy]

But in Exodus 28 we see Aaron and his sons(Levites) being set apart from the others to serve as priests. In Exodus 32 we have the golden calf incident. Is it not possible that the Levites just happened not to partake in the golden calf incident? The golden calf incident aside, to me I think that it just shows that God had and was done in choosing his priests.

No,chapter 28 just proves that nepotism was alive in well in ancient Israel.

Aaron and his sons were to be the high priests, but not because they were Levites, but because they were Moses’ kinsmen.

Look at chapter 32, verse 29:
Then Moses said, "Today you have been dedicated to the LORD, for you were against your own sons and kinsmen, to bring a blessing upon yourselves this day."

This was the moment the Levites were consecrated as a priestly tribe for Israel.

 

[victus]

Aaron and his sons were to be the high priests, but not because they were Levites, but because they were Moses’ kinsmen.

Look at chapter 32, verse 29:
Then Moses said, "Today you have been dedicated to the LORD, for you were against your own sons and kinsmen, to bring a blessing upon yourselves this day."

This was the moment the Levites were consecrated as a priestly tribe for Israel.

Then having high priests first, before the golden calf incident, just shows that God was going to set apart a ministerial priesthood whether or not the golden calf incident was going to happen or not.

 

[NotWorthy]

Then having high priests first, before the golden calf incident, just shows that God was going to set apart a ministerial priesthood whether or not the golden calf incident was going to happen or not.

No. High Priest is different from Levitical priests.

Although he was before Israel’s time, wasn’t Melchizedek a high priest?

 

[victus]

No. High Priest is different from Levitical priests.

Although he was before Israel’s time, wasn’t Melchizedek a high priest?

The one point that I am trying to make is that God did intend a ministerial priesthood for him even before the calf incident. God wanted High Priests to minister(serve) him. So there would have been no matter what, a “Royal Priesthood” of all believers and a ministerial priesthood of them being set apart.

Exodus 28 ESV

“Then bring near to you Aaron your brother, and his sons with him, from among the people of Israel, to serve me as priests—Aaron and Aaron’s sons, Nadab and Abihu, Eleazar and Ithamar. 2 And you shall make holy garments for Aaron your brother, for glory and for beauty. 3 You shall speak to all the skillful, whom I have filled with a spirit of skill, that they make Aaron’s garments to consecrate him for my priesthood…40 “For Aaron’s sons you shall make coats and sashes and caps. You shall make them for glory and beauty. 41 And you shall put them on Aaron your brother, and on his sons with him, and shall anoint them and ordain them and consecrate them, that they may serve me as priests.

 

[NotWorthy]

The one point that I am trying to make is that God did intend a ministerial priesthood for him even before the calf incident. God wanted High Priests to minister(serve) him. So there would have been no matter what, a “Royal Priesthood” of all believers and a ministerial priesthood of them being set apart.

Exodus 28 ESV

Well of course God intended it and knew what would happen. But he had to teach us that we all couldn’t be priests and that there had to be a priesthood set aside. The lesson of Calf-Gate wasn’t to teach God this fact, it was to teach us.