Ex-Catholic Fundamentalists

[kalt]

Can someone explain the Ex-Catholic Fundamentalist ™ phenomenon?

I mean, is it me, or are former Catholics-turned-fundamentalists the most bigoted and virulent kind, filled with such hate rarely found in cradle Protestants? This does appear to be the case in these forums.

Just wondering because it seems like former Protestants look at their former communities with love and fond memories; no Catholic convert I know spits out fire and brimstone at Protestants.

Any explanation why?

Disgruntled employees. Disgruntled fans. Disgruntled Catholics. They all have an axe to grind.

 

[kalt]

It’s still just a smoke screen to hide what it really is… idol worsip… It doesn’t matter what the catechism says… What matters is what the Bible says. The Bible may not be our ONLY authority but it is our FINAL authority. All other authority MUST come under it’s authority and agree with it.

Romans 3:4a God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar;…

Exodus 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

Exodus 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

How do you define graven image? How do you explain the Nativity scenes in bible-only churches?

 

[submittedjoy]

Yes, it does matter what the Catechism says, because the Catechism defines and explains theology, and that is what we are discussing. Theology should not be based on what Pastor Joe down the street told you when you were in Awana class. Theology should be a systematic, careful study and exegesis of scripture.

You are very blind if you cannot see that the Catechism is about scripture.

You are highly irrational about this. If you believe this is idol worship, then you better take down every picture you have of your child in your house, because there is no difference whatsoever between the two.

It does not appear as if you are even hearing any of this, which begs the question, what are you doing here?

There** is **a difference between two… I don’t venerate, revere, honor, or bow to my children’s pictures. If I were ever tempted to do so… yes… I would take them down.

 

[submittedjoy]

How do you define graven image? How do you explain the Nativity scenes in bible-only churches?

I don’t see protestants stopping before he nativity scene and crossing themselves or bowing before the “images”… this is the difference… it’s elementary.

 

[KJK80]

There** is **a difference between two… I don’t venerate, revere, honor, or bow to my children’s pictures. If I were ever tempted to do so… yes… I would take them down.

OK, I’m not trying to pick on you here… but this is what the Bible says…

Exodus 20:
3 You shall have no other gods before Me.
4 You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.
5 You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,
6 but showing loving kindness to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

First point… ANYTHING can be made a “god” before God… It can, itself, be religion for that matter… It doesn’t have to be a “graven image”

Second point… the commandment clearly separates “idol” and “making a likeness.” A photograph is very clearly a “likeness” however much a photograph may distort the actual truth (I’m a self-proclaimed photographer)

Third point… photography (and by nature the photographs themselves) have been a point of contention regarding this commandment in the past.

So, in all reality, there is not a difference.

Furthermore, I’m sure it’s been pointed out, but the temple’s God laid out in the old testament were not free from items that represented Heavenly realities… Correct?

Sorry, I’ll go back to lurking now.

 

[honeysuckle]

Neither did the priest venerate, revere, honor, or bow to the Divine Mercy image, as I clearly pointed out to you through a very clear theological statement made in the catechism.

The priest venerated, revered, honored, and worshiped the Lord for his sacrifice on the cross which opened up His great fountains of mercy.

Who are you, Submitted Joy, to be so arrogant, and so prideful, as to presume to know the hearts and minds of priests and 1 billion Catholics?

 

[honeysuckle]

We are re-creating a thread that was just closed in the Apologetics section with this discussion.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=3488226

 

[submittedjoy]

OK, I’m not trying to pick on you here…

Not a problem…

but this is what the Bible says…

Ok…

Exodus 20:
3 You shall have no other gods before Me.
4 You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.
5 You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,
6 but showing loving kindness to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

Very good… fighting fire with fire… I like that!

First point… ANYTHING can be made a “god” before God… It can, itself, be religion for that matter… It doesn’t have to be a “graven image”

I would be the first to agree you. An “idol” is ANYTHING that comes before you and your savior. Anything that you would allow to seperate you and your savior. ANYTHING… be it money, religion, the CHURCH, anything. “When I say the CHURCH… I mean an institution, organization etc.”

Second point… the commandment clearly separates “idol” and “making a likeness.” A photograph is very clearly a “likeness” however much a photograph may distort the actual truth (I’m a self-proclaimed photographer)

Verse 5 ties it all together so there is NO DOUBT what the inspired Word intended to reader to grasp. God himself ordained certain “images” at certain times. The Bronze Serpent, the golden Seraphims (not sure if that was spelled right! ) but before you say Aha! There you go… or any such thing… remember… 2 Kings 18:4 He removed the high places, and brake the images, and cut down the groves, and brake in pieces the brasen serpent that Moses had made: for unto those days the children of Israel did burn incense to it: and he called it Nehushtan.

Third point… photography (and by nature the photographs themselves) have been a point of contention regarding this commandment in the past.

So, in all reality, there is not a difference.

Of course there is… bowing and doing homage to them is the difference.

Furthermore, I’m sure it’s been pointed out, but the temple’s God laid out in the old testament were not free from items that represented Heavenly realities… Correct?

Correct… same principal… they were not venerated.

Thanks for the dialog

 

[honeysuckle]

Of course there is… bowing and doing homage to them is the difference.

The priests are not bowing down and doing homage to images.

However, if you would like to take examples from Old Testament rituals, the rituals connected with the Ark of the Covenant

EXCEEDED anything that may be construed as veneration of an object today.

You still have not answered my question. You have been given explanations for what is going on in the hearts and minds of Catholics, and you still presume to know better than us what is in our hearts and minds.

On Good Friday, we held a life-size cross in front of the sanctuary and one by one people came up to the cross and kissed it.

I would be willing to wager a good bet that you would accept kissing a cross in your Fundamentalist church without any question, Submitted Joy.

You are motivated by fear and prejudice, and I cannot understand what you are doing here.

 

[KJK80]

Correct… same principal… they were not venerated.

Thanks for the dialog

Veneration and putting your faith in a “thing” thinking it will somehow save you or perform miracles in and of itself is where the danger lies… However, it is seen throughout the entire Bible that God performed miracles through inanimate objects. Not that those items themselves had the power but God worked through them. Same goes for Catholic’s concept of saints… they do not have power to perform a direct miracle, however they are capable of praying with us. Just as I am capable of praying for a friend or family member.

Regardless, the CCC says this:

2132 The Christian veneration of images is not contrary to the first commandment which proscribes idols. Indeed, “the honor rendered to an image passes to its prototype,” and "whoever venerates an image venerates the person portrayed in it."The honor paid to sacred images is a “respectful veneration,” not the adoration due to God alone:

Religious worship is not directed to images in themselves, considered as mere things, but under their distinctive aspect as images leading us on to God incarnate. The movement toward the image does not terminate in it as image, but tends toward that whose image it is.

…and I do not disagree.

 

[honeysuckle]

I just posted this section from the Catechism last night and she said it was a smokescreen for the Catholic desire to engage in idol worship.

 

[KJK80]

I just posted this section from the Catechism last night and she said it was a smokescreen for the Catholic desire to engage in idol worship.

Ahh oops sorry.

Well, I was a die-hard Protestant (and anti-Catholic) for 25 years and had the same idea… One of the two things must have happened:

A) When I became Catholic, I immediately had the urge to worship an idol.

or

B) I took time to understand the standpoint of the Catholic church, accepted it and have never felt that the true Catholic concept of icons has ever interfered with the commandment against idol worship. In fact, it has brought me much closer to making God a real part of my life.

Hrmm, which do you think it was… A or B?

 

[submittedjoy]

The priests are not bowing down and doing homage to images.

On Good Friday, we held a life-size cross in front of the sanctuary and one by one people came up to the cross and kissed it.

I would be willing to wager a good bet that you would accept kissing a cross in your Fundamentalist church without any question, Submitted Joy.

You are motivated by fear and prejudice, and I cannot understand what you are doing here.

No… I am not motivated by fear. I am not prejudiced. I am here because I stumbled on this site by sheer accident… (I don’t even remember how I got here actually) It pricked my interest and has caused me to dig deeper in the study of God’s Word. This is a good thing… I may not remember what originally let me to this site, but… This is why I have stayed.

Oh… and I did see a picture of Pope John Paul II bowing his head to an image of Mary.

 

[KJK80]

Oh… and I did see a picture of Pope John Paul II bowing his head to an image of Mary.

And what did you conclude from this?

 

[honeysuckle]

No… I am not motivated by fear. I am not prejudiced.

If you dismiss what others tell you they are thinking and believing, and instead substitute your own presumed superior interpretation of what they are thinking and believing, what is that if it is not prejudice?

 

[submittedjoy]

Highly offensive.

forgive me I didn’t mean to be offensive.

Says who? We know it is not the Bible which states this.

Psalms 119:160 Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever.

2 Timothy 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

In the New Testament, God’s Word (The Written Word) it is the written word of God and that only that Jesus Christ and His apostles refer as the final authority.

In the temptation in the wilderness, the Lord resisted Satan three times, saying, “It is written”

In Matthew 4:4, “he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.” In stating “It is written,” the Lord used the exact same phrase that is used in the Holy Bible a total of forty six times.

The consistency of the use of this repeated phrase points to and underlines its importance.

Finally, It is shown the Lord totally accepted the authority of the Old Testament by His words in Matthew 5:17-18:

“Think not that I came to destroy the law or the prophets: I am not come to destroy but to fulfill. For verily, I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law till all be fulfilled.”

Matthew 22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

Mark 7:13 “You are making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such things do ye.”

Tradition has it’s place… The Bible does speak favorably of tradition at times, but Scripture alone is inspired, it alone is the ultimate authority, and it alone is the final judge of Tradition.

Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Says who? BTW ‘all’ authority ‘must’ come under it… Even Jesus’? Hmmmm now I would call this idol worship if I wanted to be as offensive as you.

God bless

Not sure what you mean? Jesus is the Word so of course he agrees with it and comes under it. It was inspired by him. He is a man of his WORD… He is just… His laws are pure and righteous. He stands by his Word…

 

[KJK80]

Jesus is the Word so of course he agrees with it and comes under it. It was inspired by him. He is a man of his WORD… He is just… His laws are pure and righteous. He stands by his Word…

As strongly as you believe this (and I commend you for it)… for Catholics; Jesus is the Word is the Church… They are all one… They all are in perfect unison and cannot conflict… For the non-Catholic, everything is lined up to the Word which is Jesus… so one is looking for conflict, even if it is not there. Those wanting to disprove the Bible can do so by the same method, if they so wish… Even though for us, the Bible does not conflict.

There may be others who can more clearly define this, but this is the way I understand it, and I think not understanding this, is what leads to much confusion on Catholic beliefs and how they are measured.

 

[submittedjoy]

As strongly as you believe this (and I commend you for it)… for Catholics; Jesus is the Word is the Church… They are all one… They all are in perfect unison and cannot conflict… For the non-Catholic, everything is lined up to the Word which is Jesus… so one is looking for conflict, even if it is not there. Those wanting to disprove the Bible can do so by the same method, if they so wish… Even though for us, the Bible does not conflict.

There may be others who can more clearly define this, but this is the way I understand it, and I think not understanding this, is what leads to much confusion on Catholic beliefs and how they are measured.

Thank you for your sincerity and politeness.

 

[honeysuckle]

You are bouncing from one argument to the next.You’ve gone from accusing Catholics of idol worship to dropping the argument and trying to argue Sola Scriptura.

All you’ve done, by the way, is prove something that Catholic Church has taught for centuries, that the Bible is the divinely inspired and the Word of God.

What arrogant presumption is it now that causes you to assume that we don’t believe these verses that you posted?

Your superior knowledge that while 1 billion Catholics and priests, bishops and the Pope believe they are honoring God in spirit and in truth when they put up a statue or a picture, REALLY, they are worshipping an idol, because you have the truth and nobody else does? (Brainwashing…)

That doesn’t sound a bit sincere to me. Once again, you sound like a person who is determined to tell other people what they think and believe, because their explanations are not sufficient. Your superior explanation is the only sufficient one.

 

[kalt]

I don’t see protestants stopping before he nativity scene and crossing themselves or bowing before the “images”… this is the difference… it’s elementary.

I see them, each Christmas, stopping and admiring the live Nativity scenes, or the very large statues on the lawns of their churches. They stand there very solemnly, apparently reflecting on what the scene with statues or live people represent. That, my friend, is prayer. Unless, of course, they’re going over their grocery list.