Ex-Catholics and salvation

[Cinette]

Pope John Paul II said that “God in His deepest mystery is not solitude but is a family”

We have Fatherhood, Sonship and the love that binds the Father and the Son, who is the Holy Spirit, the essence of a family.

Anyone who doubts the love of God blasphemes the Holy Spirit.

The verse in Hebrews and the passage in Luke talks about the same thing. Doubting God’s love and mercy is unforgivable, why? it’s not because there is something greater than God’s mercy but rather its the refusal to ask for God’s mercy.

Cooperation is a funny thing…it won’t work if one party doesn’t want it too.

Just my two cents.

 

[Cinette]

This article is too long to post here, full of official references, ECFs, etc.

catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?id=6207&CFID=20389634&CFTOKEN=75144591

WOW I saved it on my desktop to read later but… how about this passage - worse than the others…

Therefore I say to you, that every kind of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven to men; but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit it will not be forgiven him, either in this world or in the world to come (Mt. 12:31-32).

This should make people tremble!:crying: :tsktsk: :whacky: :hypno: :bigyikes:

 

[Marsha_Adams]

Therefore I say to you, that every kind of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven to men; but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit it will not be forgiven him, either in this world or in the world to come (Mt. 12:31-32).

This should make people tremble!:crying: :tsktsk: :whacky: :hypno: :bigyikes:

Catechism of the Catholic Church Paragraph 1864 “Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.” **There are no limits to the mercy of God, but anyone who deliberately refuses to accept his mercy by repenting, rejects the forgiveness of his sins and the salvation offered by the Holy Spirit. **Such hardness of heart can lead to final impenitence and eternal loss.

 

[rinnie]

I don’t know that we should get into this on here….it is a Catholic board after all. But did Catholics write it? I’m sorry I thought the HOLY SPIRIT wrote it.

As far as the contradicting goes. Let’s look:

CCC Says:

982 There is no offense, however serious, that the Church cannot forgive. "

Bible says:

Hebrew 6:4-6
"For it is impossible in the case of those who have once been enlightened and tasted the heavenly gift and shared in the holy Spirit and tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to bring them to repentance again, since they are re-crucifying the Son of God for themselves and holding him up to contempt. "

You are correct the Holy Spirit did inspire the bible, but the HS used the Church to write it. The wisdom to know what to put in the bible and what not to put in it.

 

[rinnie]

“Because the Church tells you so”….Yup, another standard line.

The bible is inspired from God, it was written by the Apostles and followers of Jesus. I don’t need the Church to tell me that, just read it.

Even if they were not compiled into a single bound book, they would still be available in individual letters as inspired letters, authored by the Holy Spirit.

We are going way off topic here…

See I understand you just do not understand the faith,and thats okay. But see you must see it from a Catholic view, we BELIEVE that the first bible was the Catholic version because it was. But the bible was written about the teachings of Christ and the Apostles. Long after the apostles were dead. Not by the apostles . Yes there were letters left to the Church, this is true. But you must remember we do not have the ability to define scripture. Thats the problem with Catholics reading the bible. Yes we are to read the bible everyday, but we must learn it first, know what we are reading, Then something magical happens, God talks to us in a way I cannot explain to you. As far as the hebrews scripture I have to check on this for sure, but I am pretty sure God wasn’t talking about us, Read it again and you will see he was talking to Priests. Like how the devil used to be a angel and then turned against God totally. But I will get you the true meaning of this scripture in case I am wrong. It may take me time.

 

[rinnie]

Okay totally confused this show’s I do not have the gift of the Holy Spirit to define scripture either. Now here is what Hebrews was telling us.

We are talking about the first century where being a Christian could and did result in being shut out of the synagogue shunned by Jewish society and your family.

Now if someone has braved all of that, tasted being a Christian and then still turned his back on Jesus and went back to Judaism saying Jesus deserved to be crucified. (the author is saying don’t waste your time on these people)

There is a big difference in leaving the RCC for a time, and following another faith, not that I agree with it, But that is why the Pope said you can always come home. Repent, ask for forgiveness come home. But to become a Protestant or going to a protestant faith once knowing the Catholic faith is one thing. But you still never denied Jesus Christ as being the son of God. See the difference. yes you turned from the fullness of the faith, but you did not fully deny Jesus as Christ. Hope this helps.

See how trying to define scripture is impossible. even for a Catholic. But we must learn from the King. And on this earth to me is the POPE!

 

[wcknight]

Picking verses here or there and trying to interpret them one way or another is futile and pointless here. We are not biblical scholars here, at least I’m not and trying to defend or attack one position or another makes no sense.

Suffice it to say there are hundreds, if not thousands of experts who will tell you that there are no contradictions between scriptures and Church teachings.

IF there are and that is an impossibly infinitely huge IF, then the Holy Spirit is contradicting Himself. For one, the Lord has promised that the Holy Spirit will guide and lead His Church throughout history, and on the other hand we believe the Holy Spirit is the true author behind scriptures.

There may be debates behind one person or anothers interpretation of scriptures, but there is no debate that the Holy Spirit is both in charge of the Church teachings and the inspiration behind all scriptures.

SO far I have seen no hint of contradiction(s) here, only a bunch of psycho bable and some amaturish twisting or interpretation of some verses.

 

[twb1621]

As I said, we got off topic. I merely wanted to find out what you folks believe about my friend’s salvation.
But some folks don’t wanna let go.

Thanks.

Regarding the verse you referred to…
Hebrew 6:4-6
"For it is impossible in the case of those who have once been enlightened and tasted the heavenly gift and shared in the holy Spirit and tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to bring them to repentance again, since they are re-crucifying the Son of God for themselves and holding him up to contempt. "

The impossibility this refers to is the falling away of priests, those who have been “called by God” to be teachers in the church but fall away. If you refer to Chapter 5 of Hebrews you will better understand. To this day an ordained priest can leave the Church but he remains a priest but fallen if he takes on a secular life against his vows. Only the pope can provide a release of vows to an ordained priest and that is rare at best… As far as a Catholic who falls away, they can always return and regain the possibility of salvation if they sincerely repent and reconcile. Even if they had joined another faith for a time.

 

[TotallyConfused]

But we must learn from the King. And on this earth to me is the POPE!

 

[TotallyConfused]

Suffice it to say there are hundreds, if not thousands of experts who will tell you that there are no contradictions between scriptures and Church teachings.

I can point out a few, but once again, I’m not going to get led into this on a Catholic board…

SO far I have seen no hint of contradiction(s) here, only a bunch of psycho bable and some amaturish twisting or interpretation of some verses.

Sure, according to you and all other Catholics who has to believe the Catechism…you are kinda forced to believe it by the Church.

Let’s see what St. Ignatius Loyola of the 16th century wrote: “We should always be disposed to believe that which appears to us to be white is really black, if the hierarchy of the church so decides.”

Again, guys, I got the answer on my friends situation. Thanks.

 

[fhansen]

I can point out a few, but once again, I’m not going to get led into this on a Catholic board…

Sure, according to you and all other Catholics who has to believe the Catechism…you are kinda forced to believe it by the Church.

Let’s see what St. Ignatius Loyola of the 16th century wrote: “We should always be disposed to believe that which appears to us to be white is really black, if the hierarchy of the church so decides.”

Again, guys, I got the answer on my friends situation. Thanks.

No, you don’t understand the way it works. Over 50 years ago I was raised Catholic. 10 years later I left the Church. 5 years later I began to read the bible and over time became convinced of the reality of God and the truth of Christianity-but I still didn’t return to the CC. My faith grew throughout the next 15 or so years and I was to receive an experience on par with those of Catholic mystics-but I still didn’t return to the CC-in fact at that time I was headed for a conservative Protestant denomination. 5 years later, 25 years after I left, I was back in the CC, to my own surprise. God always accepts prodigals-that’s what He’s waiting for and we might be surprised to learn how many prodigals-people who’ve left the faith mentally- there are within the CC.

In hindsight I can see that the journey was one to-or back to- the true faith. Believing in Catholicism is a coming to agree with the Church-that her gospel is the one which God means to proclaim to a lost world. But your friend apparently didn’t reject faith in or love for God, even if he joined the “separated brethren” whose beliefs are off-based in a variety of ways and so heretical to varying degrees. My point is that conversion is a process and God knows your friends’ heart way better than any of us and while our being in the true Church would be God’s will, of course, it’s no guarantee in and of itself of salvation and your friend may still well be on his way to a genuine belief in the true Church without knowing it. And if so, I assure you that his faith will be one of personal conviction this time. Meanwhile, pray for him.

 

[Martin777]

Hi there.

Can I ask this:

Let’s say someone converted to Catholicism a few years ago. The RCIA was thorough and explained the Church’s position well.

Later on, if that person comes face to face with a doctrine of Catholicism that He can’t agree to, based on life experiences, or whatever, and the issue becomes so big that he decides con “convert” away from Catholicism.
The issue hurt him badly, and he is left upset and alone because of that.

Here are some questions I have:

Is there ANY hope for this man on judgement day, according to Catholic law? Will his previous good deeds stand him in good stead?

And, if he starts attending a protestant church, does that even do any good? Is he just wasting his time there? I mean is he already condemned to hell, no matter how pious he is at the protestant church?

Thanks.

Friend, first of all, to cite good deeds as merit for approval on judgement day is to miss the heart of the gospel. Paul says, “For by grace are you saved, through faith, and that not of yourselves. It is the gift of God, not as a result of works, so that no one can boast.” (Eph 2:8,9) God tells us in that verse that we are saved by GRACE (unmerited favor) through FAITH…NOT as a result of works. Let’s start there.

 

[rinnie]

I can point out a few, but once again, I’m not going to get led into this on a Catholic board…

Sure, according to you and all other Catholics who has to believe the Catechism…you are kinda forced to believe it by the Church.

Let’s see what St. Ignatius Loyola of the 16th century wrote: “We should always be disposed to believe that which appears to us to be white is really black, if the hierarchy of the church so decides.”

Again, guys, I got the answer on my friends situation. Thanks.

My friend you just do not get it. There is no way that anyone can possibly be forced to believe in the Catholic Church. If anyone believes in that, then they do not believe in the bible. God gives us free will. No one can force anyone to believe. The reason Catholic believe and come back to the faith is because it all adds up. Nothing we are taught goes against the word of God. No one can show us anything in the RCC that goes against the bible. That is what the real fight is always about. We are asked questions and we can prove it between oral tradition or written. It seems that you have anger against the Church, I hope I am wrong, but I pray that you will somehow find peace.

 

[guanophore]

He knows that the Church teaches that it is from Jesus, but he does not believe that anymore.

Well, I guess I am confused. Why would he go to a Protestant Community? It seems unlikely that he believes what the Catholic Church teaches is from Jesus. If he has looked for truth elsewhere, then it implies that he believes the teaching of Christ is found outside the Catholic Church.

I would like to suggest that there are literally millions of baptized Catholics who have never become true Christians. The reason is that they have never understood and received the salvation that is by faith in Jesus, apart from the works of the law. You can’t be forgiven in that condition. Don’t assume that all popes, bishops and priests have been saved. It simply isn’t true.

I agree that there are baptized Catholics who have not become disciples of Christ. However, It is not true that one can’t be forgiven in that condition. In fact, ignorance is the condition in which God does pour out His mercy and forgiveness. While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us,and He forgave those ignorant who were nailing Him to the cross. We should do all we can to help the baptized to live worthy of the calling to which they are called, and pray for them, but leave their judgement to God.

 

[guanophore]

A question arises here:

Do some people only stay Catholic for fear of hell? Because of these type of scenarios, they choose to remain Catholic just because they are afraid of hell, not because they believe it all?

Isn’t that the wrong reasons for being a Catholic?

It certainly falls far short of the great plan God has for us in Christ. On the other hand, such a position does demonstrate faith, because someone has to believe that hell exists, and that it is horrible to be separated from God.

 

[twb1621]

I can point out a few, but once again, I’m not going to get led into this on a Catholic board…

It’s always best after making a statement like this to at least refer to what you are talking about just in case you have the wrong idea.

Sure, according to you and all other Catholics who has to believe the Catechism…you are kinda forced to believe it by the Church.
It’s not difficult to believ something that is supported by the Bible. The Bible is the foundation of the CCC
Let’s see what St. Ignatius Loyola of the 16th century wrote: “We should always be disposed to believe that which appears to us to be white is really black, if the hierarchy of the church so decides.”
There is a great deal that can be quoted by St. Ignatius Loyola
Again, guys, I got the answer on my friends situation. Thanks.

I hope you got information that helped you.

 

[wcknight]

I can point out a few, but once again, I’m not going to get led into this on a Catholic board…

Sure, according to you and all other Catholics who has to believe the Catechism…you are kinda forced to believe it by the Church.

Let’s see what St. Ignatius Loyola of the 16th century wrote: “We should always be disposed to believe that which appears to us to be white is really black, if the hierarchy of the church so decides.”

Again, guys, I got the answer on my friends situation. Thanks.

Please DO point out those contradictions as we would all be interested in what you perceive to be wrong. Folks who dabble in those things frequently think they find some contradiction(s) but after sincere research, they discover that the Catholic Church is right after all.

I would point out that a few evangelical bible scholar ministers after studying scriptures and the Church’s doctrine, convert because of thrir findings.

No one is coerced or forced to believe anything. IF we read scriptures and come up with what we believe is a contradiction, all we have to do is research it it or question someone who knows about such things.

The main problem with individual interpretation of the bible is that you folks come up with hundreds if not thousands of different interpretations for various passages. With the Catholic Church we come up with ONE.

Now IF the Holy Spirit is guiding each and every reader (and each and every different denomintion) as you folks presume, THEN it necessarilyy must come true that ALL of your interpretations SHOULD be identical. After all why would the Holy Spirit interpret scriptures for one person(or group) one way, while giving a different or even contradictory interpretation for another one.

We may not memorize and parrot verses like you folks do, but we don’t need to, the entire Catholic Church has one version of scriptures, and we have a huge group of folks to make sure everyone is on the same page. After all how many different vesions of the Truth can there possibly be ? For us there is only ONE, and that is all anyone ever needs.

IF you really want to learn the REAL Truth, all you have to do is ask about your contradictions, you just may discover you could have had a V8 !!! Why settle for an imitation when you can have the real thing ???

Now that you’ve resolved your friends situation, you may want to look into your own.

 

[guanophore]

I can point out a few, but once again, I’m not going to get led into this on a Catholic board…

That is why we are here!

Sure, according to you and all other Catholics who has to believe the Catechism…you are kinda forced to believe it by the Church.

This is an absurd statement. Such a thing does indeed confirm that you are totally confused. No one can be “forced” to believe anything. All who are called by God to faith are called in freedom, and those who embrace the teaching of the Apostles do so in freedom. We are set free from slavery and bondage by the blood of Christ. No one can be “forced” into faith.

Let’s see what St. Ignatius Loyola of the 16th century wrote: “We should always be disposed to believe that which appears to us to be white is really black, if the hierarchy of the church so decides.”

I wonder why this seems so difficult? This is a very scriptural principle. Scripture is clear that many spiritual truths are really opposite of what they appear. The cross is the power of God,but foolishness to the world. We look like fools to the world when we embrace the wisdom of God. We are a stench to those who are perishing,but sweet perfume to those who are not. Jesus said that those who lose their life will find it. These kinds of spiritual truths that seem opposite of worldly truth are numerous in scripture.

Again, guys, I got the answer on my friends situation. Thanks.

Did you? What did you decide was the “right” answer?