Ex-Catholics and salvation

[TotallyConfused]

Hi there.

Can I ask this:

Let’s say someone converted to Catholicism a few years ago. The RCIA was thorough and explained the Church’s position well.

Later on, if that person comes face to face with a doctrine of Catholicism that He can’t agree to, based on life experiences, or whatever, and the issue becomes so big that he decides con “convert” away from Catholicism.
The issue hurt him badly, and he is left upset and alone because of that.

Here are some questions I have:

Is there ANY hope for this man on judgement day, according to Catholic law? Will his previous good deeds stand him in good stead?

And, if he starts attending a protestant church, does that even do any good? Is he just wasting his time there? I mean is he already condemned to hell, no matter how pious he is at the protestant church?

Thanks.

 

[TotallyConfused]

No replies?

Well, okay, let me try and answer my own question, and you can tell me how far off I am…

I think that Catholics would say that this person is condemned. I think they would say that the only recourse he has is to go to confession and get back to Catholicism.

But the person left because he can’t believe in the doctrines, so returning would be hypocritical to him and he won’t mean the confession anyway.

So, would he be wasting his time in a protestant church? That’s what I’m wondering.

Thanks!

 

[nilofc]

Here’s a short answer to your question…

We catholics never condemned anyone.

In fact, the catholic church NEVER condemned any specific individual.

Here’s a hint…Try to be specific regarding what doctrine you don’t accept and we will answer you.

… But let me guess on what doctrine you disagree most. “Contraception”… isn’t it?

 

[TotallyConfused]

In this case the specific doctrine doesn’t really matter.

The basis of the question is that if someone leaves the Church, can he get saved, once he has been a Catholic, but is not practicing at the time of his death.

That’s the question.

 

[Seatuck]

If a Catholic knows that the Catholic Church is the church that Christ started and created to save souls and he/she leaves it fully know this it puts that Catholic in mortal danger of not going to heaven. We would hope and pray for that soul.

 

[guanophore]

Let’s say someone converted to Catholicism a few years ago. The RCIA was thorough and explained the Church’s position well.

Later on, if that person comes face to face with a doctrine of Catholicism that He can’t agree to, based on life experiences, or whatever, and the issue becomes so big that he decides con “convert” away from Catholicism.

I would say that it was not covered in RCIA well enough. If it is a doctrine this foundational then it should have become evident sooner. Perhaps he did not believe it would be a problem, but later it was?

The issue hurt him badly, and he is left upset and alone because of that.

Jesus told us to pick up our cross, and carry it. He has a struggle, and it is not easy. Jesus did not promise us a bed of roses!

Here are some questions I have:

Is there ANY hope for this man on judgement day, according to Catholic law?

Where there is life, there is hope! Jesus is always calling us, an drawing us to Himself. He is not willing that any should perish.

Will his previous good deeds stand him in good stead?

We do not enter heaven by virtue of our good deeds. We are saved by grace, through faith, and not of our own works, lest we have something to boast about before God.

And, if he starts attending a protestant church, does that even do any good?

The Catholic Church teaches that the HS uses these ecclesiastical communities to draw people unto Himself. There re many of us that left the Catholic faith, sojoured in Protestant communities and finally returned. Some of us are the most passionate about our faith.

 Is he just wasting his time there?

Seeking God is never a waste of time. there are some ways it which it can be done more productively, but God is able from stones to raise up children to Abraham.

I mean is he already condemned to hell, no matter how pious he is at the protestant church?

Piety will not buy us a place in heaven. One can only enter the wedding feast of the Lamb if one is properly attired. One must put on the wedding garment provided by Christ. It is being in right relationship with God that will enable us to enter heaven. When we are in right relation ship (a state of grace) then our pious acts and good deeds will sanctify us through His grace.

 

[nilofc]

If a Catholic knows that the Catholic Church is the church that Christ started and created to save souls and he/she leaves it fully know this it puts that Catholic in mortal danger of not going to heaven. We would hope and pray for that soul.

Thank you brother. This is my response too…

Unless there is invincible ignorance…then that will be a problem.
Not everyone who says “Lord, Lord…will enter the kingdom of heaven”

…and I will add… “Extra Ecclesiam, nulla salus”.

Outside the Church, there is no salvation.

 

[TotallyConfused]

There re many of us that left the Catholic faith, sojoured in Protestant communities and finally returned. Some of us are the most passionate about our faith.

For the sake of the question, the person didn’t return to the faith

Piety will not buy us a place in heaven. One can only enter the wedding feast of the Lamb if one is properly attired. One must put on the wedding garment provided by Christ. It is being in right relationship with God that will enable us to enter heaven. When we are in right relationship (a state of grace) then our pious acts and good deeds will sanctify us through His grace.

But doesn’t the Catholic faith teaches that a person such as this will not die in a state of grace and therefore be condemned?

 

[wcknight]

I would hope all ex-Catholics and lapsed Catholics are forgiven. As the saying goes some of my best friends (and relatives) are ex-Catholics or lapsed Catholics.

I too was at one time a laped Catholic (for almost 10 years), and IF I had died while away from the Church I hoped and prayed that I would be forgiven. And on some evenings, it was very terrifying to think that I could be condemned IF I did not make it through the night.

BUT the only SURE way of knowing whether you are forgiven or not, is to return to the Church and go to confession and I am very very glad and relieved that I did.

 

[guanophore]

For the sake of the question, the person didn’t return to the faith

Are you saying that it is no longer possible to do so? Until such a person passes from this life the opportunity exists.

But doesn’t the Catholic faith teaches that a person such as this will not die in a state of grace and therefore be condemned?

The key here is “knowingly leave”. It seems that he does not know or understand that what the Church teaches is from Jesus. He may imagine it is man made. He may think that he now has a more authentic “christian” experience, because he does not know.

 

[wcknight]

But doesn’t the Catholic faith teaches that a person such as this will not die in a state of grace and therefore be condemned?

No one knows whether anyone dies in the state of grace or is given a last moment opportunity to repent.

St Catherine of Siena tells about someone falling off a horse and in the instant before hitting the ground, the person repented and was not condemned.

The problem is, no one knows if everyone is given that last second chance to say they are sorry. Personally I do not want to have to rely on a last second stay of execution, that may or may not come.

 

[kage_ar]

Be the best example to them you can be, pray for them, and let the Holy Spirit work in them.

 

[TotallyConfused]

It seems that he does not know or understand that what the Church teaches is from Jesus. He may imagine it is man made.

He knows that the Church teaches that it is from Jesus, but he does not believe that anymore.

 

[Sea_Bass]

As a cradle Catholic, I have a hard time believing that anyone is condemned because they aren’t Catholic or go away from the Catholic Church. Now, while I believe that the Catholic Church holds all the keys to Salvation, there are other ways to achieve Salvation in Jesus. Take for example, someone who is Methodist but still has a relationship with Jesus and lives accordingly, I believe still goes to Heaven. And that person is perhaps better than a Catholic who does not live his life accordingly to his faith. I think that because we are Catholic and know the Teachings of Jesus as He taught them, it is maybe harder for us to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven than a protestant. It’s just a thought, but it’s an interesting thought. That being said, if he truly doesn’t believe in a doctrine, than that’s between him and God, and it’s not for us to judge. Just pray that the Holy Spirit will once again come upon him. I hope this makes sense.

 

[TotallyConfused]

The problem is, no one knows if everyone is given that last second chance to say they are sorry. Personally I do not want to have to rely on a last second stay of execution, that may or may not come.

A question arises here:

Do some people only stay Catholic for fear of hell? Because of these type of scenarios, they choose to remain Catholic just because they are afraid of hell, not because they believe it all?

Isn’t that the wrong reasons for being a Catholic?

 

[kage_ar]

A question arises here:

Do some people only stay Catholic for fear of hell? Because of these type of scenarios, they choose to remain Catholic just because they are afraid of hell, not because they believe it all?

Isn’t that the wrong reasons for being a Catholic?

When in confession, there are two different kinds of contrition.

These are known as imperfect contrition and perfect contrition. Our sin is forigiven as long as we have either type of contrition.

Imperfect contrition means we go to confession and are sorry for our sins because we fear hell. We are forgiven of our sins when we confess with imperfect contrition.

Perfect contrition is when we go to confession and are sorry for our sins because we have offended God, who loves us. We are forgiven of our sin if we confess with perfect contrition.

As we mature in our spiritual walk with God, we move from imperfection to perfection in our contrition.

So, one who stays in relationship with God through imperfect contrition, fear of hell, is still forgiven - and is moving along the road to perfection.

 

[Corki]

I think that Catholics would say that this person is condemned. I think they would say that the only recourse he has is to go to confession and get back to Catholicism.

The Church does not teach that anyone is condemned. To leave the Church is grave matter and one’s culpability would depend on how much knowledge and free will was involved. The ordinary recourse would be to return to the Sacraments, however.

But the person left because he can’t believe in the doctrines, so returning would be hypocritical to him and he won’t mean the confession anyway.

Faith is an act of the will, not a feeling. He may have chosen not to believe in a doctrine of the Church. The confession isn’t hypocritical if he has sorrow for the sin. The sin isn’t the doubt; the sin is leaving the Church. If he is sorry for that and wants to work on the faith, there is no reason to think his confession would not be sincere.

So, would he be wasting his time in a protestant church? That’s what I’m wondering.

There is no waste of time worshiping God. Many people first encounter God through the Protestant churches.

A question arises here:

Do some people only stay Catholic for fear of hell? Because of these type of scenarios, they choose to remain Catholic just because they are afraid of hell, not because they believe it all?

Isn’t that the wrong reasons for being a Catholic?

I am sure there are some that stay just for that reason; hopefully not many. I wouldn’t say it was a wrong reason to stay because the fear of Hell would be directly related to belief that this was the true Church and to leave would be wrong. But there are many better reasons to stay/become Catholic.

 

[TotallyConfused]

Another question arises frm this.

I read that the Jewish faith does not believe in hell. Where does the definition come from then?
Some believe it was a mis~translation.

 

[kage_ar]

Another question arises frm this.

I read that the Jewish faith does not believe in hell. Where does the definition come from then?
Some believe it was a mis~translation.

I don’t know that we have any practicing Jews on this board, you might want to take that question to your local Rabbi? Or, contact the people here hebrewcatholic.org/

 

[flameburns623]

Hi there.

Can I ask this:

Let’s say someone converted to Catholicism a few years ago. The RCIA was thorough and explained the Church’s position well.

Later on, if that person comes face to face with a doctrine of Catholicism that He can’t agree to, based on life experiences, or whatever, and the issue becomes so big that he decides con “convert” away from Catholicism.
The issue hurt him badly, and he is left upset and alone because of that.

Here are some questions I have:

Is there ANY hope for this man on judgement day, according to Catholic law? Will his previous good deeds stand him in good stead?

And, if he starts attending a protestant church, does that even do any good? Is he just wasting his time there? I mean is he already condemned to hell, no matter how pious he is at the protestant church?

Thanks.

The ultra-traditional members of the Faith would suggest that a willful and unrepentant heretic–that is what you are describing–would only be saved if at the moment of death they experienced perfect contrition, including perfect sorrow for having rejected the visible Church. It is impossible for anyone to know exactly what graces our Lord may give to those at the very point of death.

A more generous view is that if the person who left were not fully converted to the RCC to begin with–if certain issues were not fully and appropriately covered for this person–they remain in a state of invincible ignorance and remain members of the Church through a baptism of desire–even if they externally reject Her and never return to visible communion with Her.

Piety or good works would not be the basis for salvation. NOR WOULD IGNORANCE OF ITSELF. The person would be saved through the mercy and grace of God, because they have fundamentally submitted themselves in love and devotion to Him despite their lack of visible communion with the Church.