Ex-Catholics and salvation

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TotallyConfused said:
Another question arises frm this.

I read that the Jewish faith does not believe in hell. Where does the definition come from then?
Some believe it was a mis~translation.
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During the New Testament times, there were the Sadducees (priests) and the Pharisees (laymen). The Sadducees only considered the Penteteuch ( five books of Moses) to be inspired revelation, they did not believe in the resurrection. The Pharisees believed that the Penteteuch and the prophetic writings and the wisdom literature to be inspired revelation. There were, however, disagreements as to which of these writings should be included in some cases.

Today’s Jewish faith leans more towards the Sadducees’ interpretation and doe not believe in a resurrection. During the NT times, the laity leaned more towards the Pharisees. The upshot of this is that we as Christians accept as inspired revelation much more than the Sadducees did and it was in the wisdom literature and the prophetic writings that the resurrection became more and more clear.
 
To make matters easier…

Just look at Peter and Judas…

…both turned their backs away from God.

One came back, one didn’t.

The one that came back became the greatest among the apostles, the one that didn’t…became the son of perdition.
But boy I tell you…whew… if the other one came back and repent… wow…he could have been the greatest of them all.

I hope this will enlighten our minds in the true mercy of God. That Jesus will forgive any sin…you just have to show up really feel sorry for having offended Him.

God’s greatest quality is MERCY.
 
nilofc said:
…the only statement that I will agree you on your reply is the last one…

"That’s why I think that God chooses not to forgive that particular sin, even though He can…"

But… God will always choose to forgive any sin, no matter how grave it is, even falling away from Church and God, as long as the person is truly repentant.
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I’m still not convinced of this…
The only time that he will not forgive someone who has fallen away from Church is when that person refuses to cooperate with the grace of repentance. Someone who won’t repent.
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St. Paul in Hebrews is talking about this person…someone who tasted the heavenly gift and then turns away stubbornly persistent in wrongdoing.
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I’m sorry to sounds like a broken record on this, but I still don’t think it’s the right interpretation.

The verse doesn’t leave any room for a person’s refusal or acceptance of grace. The verse says it’s impossible for someone who [once was Christian] and have fallen away, to bring them to repentance again.
It’s pretty cut and dry. It doesn’t say that the person is refusing forgiveness…it says it pretty cut and dry that once you are gone there is no coming back.

I can’t see that this verse talks about refusal of repentance at all.
 
TotallyConfused said:
I’m still not convinced of this…

I’m sorry to sounds like a broken record on this, but I still don’t think it’s the right interpretation.

The verse doesn’t leave any room for a person’s refusal or acceptance of grace. The verse says it’s impossible for someone who [once was Christian] and have fallen away, to bring them to repentance again.
It’s pretty cut and dry. It doesn’t say that the person is refusing forgiveness…it says it pretty cut and dry that once you are gone there is no coming back.

I can’t see that this verse talks about refusal of repentance at all.
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Your private interpretation of these verses conflicts with the teaching of the Church. Please read the Catechism (the documents are noted in the CCC):

scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a10.htm#982

982 There is no offense, however serious, that the Church cannot forgive. "There is no one, however wicked and guilty, who may not confidently hope for forgiveness, provided his repentance is honest.529 Christ who died for all men desires that in his Church the gates of forgiveness should always be open to anyone who turns away from sin.
 
nilofc said:
To make matters easier…

Just look at Peter and Judas…

…both turned their backs away from God.

One came back, one didn’t.

The one that came back became the greatest among the apostles, the one that didn’t…became the son of perdition.
But boy I tell you…whew… if the other one came back and repent… wow…he could have been the greatest of them all.

I hope this will enlighten our minds in the true mercy of God. That Jesus will forgive any sin…you just have to show up really feel sorry for having offended Him.

God’s greatest quality is MERCY.
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Did Peter really turn his back totally on Christ and the Church?
I say no. He was afraid of persecution…but to make a conscious decision to turn from Christ is much different than what Peter did.
Peter acted out of fear and it was not a conscious decision to not follow Christ anymore.
 
TotallyConfused said:
In this case the specific doctrine doesn’t really matter.

The basis of the question is that if someone leaves the Church, can he get saved, once he has been a Catholic, but is not practicing at the time of his death.

That’s the question.
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I don’t think anyone can answer that question. That is totally up to God and no one knows what God would or would not do. But here is the thing, Now this is just the way I see it, If someone is Catholic understands the faith, and then turns away from it, his faith wasn’t really that important to him anyway. See what I mean? When you become Catholic its not like a club that you join and then when you membership is up its up. The Catholic faith and religion is an on going thing. ITs a way of life. It never changes but you do, you grow in it. It is more than a personal relationship with God it is a personal relationship with God shared with others in the world. It is taking that seed and planting it and watching it grow and sharing it with all. It is not just between you and God it is between you God and People. It is taking your love for God and using it to help others, what you do for others you do for God. That is why Catholic is like no other faith. It does not start at teens, it starts from the crib. The first thing you do is go to Church as a baby, you grow up in that Church, baptism (the blessings and gift of faith. Holy communion receiving Christ through the bread and wine, Confession asking God to forgive your sins and help you to sin no more. Confirmation, showing that you now understand what all of this means. Marriage, Asking for Gods blessing, on your marriage, to help you both through sickness and health, good times and bad and they are gonna be there. And then in the ends last rites, Asking God to welcome you home to the everlasting Church. No offense but what other kind of salvation is there. What Church in this world can give you any more than that. What else could you be looking for or want? And what could be more important?
 
TotallyConfused said:
True, then maybe God doesn’t want to forgive these sins.

If God’s mind is set against forgiving this sin, then it would be impossible to return wouldn’t it?

Interesting.
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There is never a sin in this world that God does not want to forgive. God wants everyone to come to him and ask for forgiveness and get to heaven. Everyone. Look at the protical son. In order for anyone to be forgiven for a sin they must do three things, Go to confession, ask for forgiveness and truely be sorry and sin no more. Thats it. The only way God would not forgive a sin is if you are not sincere.
 
TotallyConfused said:
I think it’s more like that actual scripture verses conflict with the Catechism.
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As the Bible is a Catholic book, it is impossible for the two to contradict. Please, ask your Priest if there is any sin that God will not forgive.
 
kage_ar said:
As the Bible is a Catholic book, it is impossible for the two to contradict. Please, ask your Priest if there is any sin that God will not forgive.
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The bible is not a “Catholic Book” per se, it’s a Book that’s divinely inspired. The Cahtolic Church just decided which books to include in it.

And I think it’s pretty clear that they can, and do, contradict.
 
I think we kinda strayed a bit.

I think that the original question has been answered to a relative degree. Let me see if I can understand it:

The catholic church, the church that my friend has fallen away from teaches that, without a valid confession it is likely that the chances of salvation is slim.
However the thought processes of forgiveness and salvation is totally unknown to man and so there may still be a chance of salvation even if he does not return to the church or make a valid confession.

So, he should keep hoping and try his best…right?
 
TotallyConfused said:
The bible is not a “Catholic Book” per se, it’s a Book that’s divinely inspired. The Cahtolic Church just decided which books to include in it.

And I think it’s pretty clear that they can, and do, contradict.
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I checked your profile, it seems you are not Catholic, I thought you were when I posted. As a non-Catholic, you would not understand that the Bible is a Catholic book, or recognize the authority of the Church.

Peace be with you.
 
TotallyConfused said:
I think we kinda strayed a bit.

I think that the original question has been answered to a relative degree. Let me see if I can understand it:

The catholic church, the church that my friend has fallen away from teaches that, without a valid confession it is likely that the chances of salvation is slim.
However the thought processes of forgiveness and salvation is totally unknown to man and so there may still be a chance of salvation even if he does not return to the church or make a valid confession.

So, he should keep hoping and try his best…right?
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I wouldn’t. I would not take that chance. Not when comming to the Church and making thing’s right are so close at hand. But I would not wait it I were your friend. I would not dare as I said to make that judgement, but I would also not know what the proper answer to our Lord would be when asked why did you not repent, when you knew better. When you were blessed with the faith and the knowledge of the fullness of truth. And when asked why did your turn your back. But like I said its between him and God, but I would run not walk back to the church repent, and get back on the right path. Why wouldn’t anyone not want to, if able.
 
rinnie said:
I wouldn’t. I would not take that chance. Not when comming to the Church and making thing’s right are so close at hand. But I would not wait it I were your friend. I would not dare as I said to make that judgement, but I would also not know what the proper answer to our Lord would be when asked why did you not repent, when you knew better. When you were blessed with the faith and the knowledge of the fullness of truth. And when asked why did your turn your back. But like I said its between him and God, but I would run not walk back to the church repent, and get back on the right path. Why wouldn’t anyone not want to, if able.
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Your suggestion, although a sound one, will most probably never happen with him.
Some teachings has caused him to be quite jaded and hurt and he will not go back to the Church. It didn’t really matter for the question I asked, the basis is that he left and I was wondering about his salvation.
 
TotallyConfused said:
Your suggestion, although a sound one, will most probably never happen with him.
Some teachings has caused him to be quite jaded and hurt and he will not go back to the Church. It didn’t really matter for the question I asked, the basis is that he left and I was wondering about his salvation.
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We can alway’s pray and hope. Our prayers can help him. One thing that may help you to understand.

James 5 19-20 My brothers if anyone among you should stray from that truth and someone bring him back, he should know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his sould from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

What that means is a christian is instrumental in the conversion of a sinner, the RESULT IS FORGIVENESS OF SINS AND RESISTATEMENT OF THE SINNER TO THE LIFE OF GRACE.

Hope that helps a little. Don’t ever give up on his soul. Pray hard and often. I will also pray for him or her. I will also go to the Blessed Mother and ask her to pray also. You know what they say never under-estimate the power of a woman!
 
TotallyConfused said:
Another question arises frm this.

I read that the Jewish faith does not believe in hell. Where does the definition come from then?
Some believe it was a mis~translation.
Click to expand...
Jews believe that we are born innocent with the power of free choice and the ability to do great good - when a Christian talks to a Jew about the need to be “saved” a Jew can only reply “saved from what”? The concept of being born in sin, original or otherwise, has no place in Judaism.

The Catholic concept of “Hell” also does not exist in Judaism. The Jewish concept of Hell is somewhat similar, mutatis mutandis, to the Catholic concept of purgatory.
 
chosen_people said:
Jews believe that we are born innocent with the power of free choice and the ability to do great good - when a Christian talks to a Jew about the need to be “saved” a Jew can only reply “saved from what”? The concept of being born in sin, original or otherwise, has no place in Judaism.

The Catholic concept of “Hell” also does not exist in Judaism. The Jewish concept of Hell is somewhat similar, mutatis mutandis, to the Catholic concept of purgatory.
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Thank you for that info.

So, would you, or anyone, know where the Catholics come up with “Hell” then?
 
TotallyConfused said:
The bible is not a “Catholic Book” per se, it’s a Book that’s divinely inspired. The Cahtolic Church just decided which books to include in it.

And I think it’s pretty clear that they can, and do, contradict.
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The Bible IS a Catholic book and they do NOT contradict. What makes you think they do ???

The concept of Hell comes directly from Jesus. He often mentions the idea of eternal punishment, unquenchable fire, gnashing of teeth. etc, etc…
 
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