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Pambo
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I agree - I just thought it might be interesting to see how they might respond.
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mardukm
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WHAT?!!! Is Father Serge Keleher the same one who posted at Byzcath, or was someone simply using that name as a handle? If so, WHEN DID THIS HAPPEN? I had a few e-mail exchanges with Fr. Serge several years ago about my decision to translate to the Catholic Church. A great man and priest!!!Sometimes, ex-Catholics become Orthodox priests and then return to the Catholic Church and serve as Catholic priests. Such was the case of Fr. Serge Keleher, of blessed memory, who left the Roman Rite and was later ordained an Orthodox priest. He later returned to the Catholic Church and served as a Russian Catholic priest under the Ukrainian Catholic Church. See this recent discussion:
byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/374098/Question%20on%20Fr.%20Serge%20Keleher#Post374098
Blessings,
Marduk
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marlo
Guest
The question is: who is really outside of the Church?
during this period, the Oriental Orthodox believed that the Byzantines and Latins were outside the Church, and the Chalcedonians (Latins and Byzantine) thinks that the Oriental Orthodox were outside the Church.
After the Schism on 1054 (Byzantine / Latin)
The Byzantines believed that the Latins were outside of the Church, While the Latin church believed that the Byzantines were outside of the church.
Recent Developments: Orientals Orthodox were cleared on the claim that they were Monophysites but rather Miaphysites, Miracles attributed to them strongly suggest that their sacraments are valid.
On the Latin / Byzantine schism, some theologians and EO - Catholic consultation highly suggest that the division were caused by Political and sometimes theological misunderstanding. Some Orthodox churches even embraces Latin Saints like St. Francis of Asisi.
Who is outside the church? In the Orthodox view, all except them are outside the church, in reality, i dont think so.
during this period, the Oriental Orthodox believed that the Byzantines and Latins were outside the Church, and the Chalcedonians (Latins and Byzantine) thinks that the Oriental Orthodox were outside the Church.
After the Schism on 1054 (Byzantine / Latin)
The Byzantines believed that the Latins were outside of the Church, While the Latin church believed that the Byzantines were outside of the church.
Recent Developments: Orientals Orthodox were cleared on the claim that they were Monophysites but rather Miaphysites, Miracles attributed to them strongly suggest that their sacraments are valid.
On the Latin / Byzantine schism, some theologians and EO - Catholic consultation highly suggest that the division were caused by Political and sometimes theological misunderstanding. Some Orthodox churches even embraces Latin Saints like St. Francis of Asisi.
Who is outside the church? In the Orthodox view, all except them are outside the church, in reality, i dont think so.
Here is a quotation from St. Basil’s first canonical epistle, approved by Trullo and Second Nicaea:
According to St. Basil, those who are in schism have no grace, and so become laymen. Those who are baptized by schismatics, therefore, should receive true baptism, since they were not truly baptized outside of the Church. This seems to be the Orthodox view, for the most part.
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Byz_Guy
Guest
Sorry, I had missed this earlier. Yes, Fr. Serge reposed in the Lord last month.WHAT?!!! Is Father Serge Keleher the same one who posted at Byzcath, or was someone simply using that name as a handle? If so, WHEN DID THIS HAPPEN? I had a few e-mail exchanges with Fr. Serge several years ago about my decision to translate to the Catholic Church. A great man and priest!!!
Blessings,
Marduk
As far as his priestly career, that started in Orthodoxy and continued after his return to the Catholic Church.
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Peter_J
Guest
I wasn’t aware of that thread. Thanks, Byz Guy, for the good link.
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Frank_J
Guest
The more Roman Catholic who join the Orthodox Church means more Priest for us. I was RC at one time and the Priest that baptize me was also RC too. I known may priest that were once RC and join and are great priest. Your lose is our gain I take those ods anytime.
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Jegudiel
Guest
This is a most fascinating question!I know a few men who having left the Catholic church have gone on to become Eastern Orthodox priests
So how would/does the Catholic church look upon this?
Would they be real Preists,seeing that they were previously Catholic?
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ByzCathCantor
Guest
That they remain faithful servants of the Lord is no one’s gain but the Lord’s.The more Roman Catholic who join the Orthodox Church means more Priest for us. I was RC at one time and the Priest that baptize me was also RC too. I known may priest that were once RC and join and are great priest. Your lose is our gain I take those ods anytime.
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Vico
Guest
Asleep: Nov 11, 2011. Dublin 11:30 AMWHAT?!!! Is Father Serge Keleher the same one who posted at Byzcath, or was someone simply using that name as a handle? If so, WHEN DID THIS HAPPEN? I had a few e-mail exchanges with Fr. Serge several years ago about my decision to translate to the Catholic Church. A great man and priest!!!
Blessings,
Marduk
frgabrielburke.com/2011/11/archimandrite-serge-kelleher-with.html
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Byz_Guy
Guest
When Fr. Serge re-entered the Catholic Church he did so via the Melkite Patriarchate. I think if he had done so through the Roman Rite (which some canonists would have insisted he still was a member of) there might have been a problem with his continuing his priestly ministry. After reconciling to the Catholic Church through the Melkite Patriarchate, Fr. Serge then served with other Eastern Catholic jurisdictions.
As an example, I know of a situation where a former Protestant who became Orthodox amd years later entered an Eastern Catholic jurisdiction (not Melkite) and found out a couple of years later that canonically he was viewed as Roman Rite – even though he never was Catholic until he entered that particular Eastern Catholic Church. This was because he had originally been baptized in a Protestant Church. So, he had to go through a change of ritual Church to actually become a member of that Eastern Catholic Church. This was because he was contemplating ministerial service.
My Melkite friends have told me that that would never have happened among them. They interpret such things differently.
As an example, I know of a situation where a former Protestant who became Orthodox amd years later entered an Eastern Catholic jurisdiction (not Melkite) and found out a couple of years later that canonically he was viewed as Roman Rite – even though he never was Catholic until he entered that particular Eastern Catholic Church. This was because he had originally been baptized in a Protestant Church. So, he had to go through a change of ritual Church to actually become a member of that Eastern Catholic Church. This was because he was contemplating ministerial service.
My Melkite friends have told me that that would never have happened among them. They interpret such things differently.
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Peter_J
Guest
There used to be a forum called “Eastern Christianity”. That may explain why, nowadays, many Orthodox-related topics are posted in “Eastern Catholicism” rather than “Non-Catholic Religions”.He might be right. I find that some Eastern Catholics identify more with Orthodoxy than the Catholic Church, just from stuff I’ve read on the Eastern Catholic forum.
Very confusing.
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Vico
Guest
This is his history as I learned it:When Fr. Serge re-entered the Catholic Church he did so via the Melkite Patriarchate. I think if he had done so through the Roman Rite (which some canonists would have insisted he still was a member of) there might have been a problem with his continuing his priestly ministry. After reconciling to the Catholic Church through the Melkite Patriarchate, Fr. Serge then served with other Eastern Catholic jurisdictions.
As an example, I know of a situation where a former Protestant who became Orthodox amd years later entered an Eastern Catholic jurisdiction (not Melkite) and found out a couple of years later that canonically he was viewed as Roman Rite – even though he never was Catholic until he entered that particular Eastern Catholic Church. This was because he had originally been baptized in a Protestant Church. So, he had to go through a change of ritual Church to actually become a member of that Eastern Catholic Church. This was because he was contemplating ministerial service.
My Melkite friends have told me that that would never have happened among them. They interpret such things differently.
Born 1942 New York City (Brian Keleher). Baptised Latin Church.
Converted to Russian Orthodox (Moscow Patriarchate) in 1961
Ordained Russian Orthodox priest in 1967 (Moscow Patriarchate)
Received as a Russian Catholic, by Archbishop Joseph Raya in 1973
Serving the Ukrainian Catholic Church (Stampford of the Ukrainians) & Eparchy of Toronto (Bishop Isidore) - by 1974
Bishop Isidore made him an archpriest
Bishop Anaghiros made him a mitered Archimandrite
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Peter_J
Guest
I don’t have a link to the thread on-hand, but I recall a conversation about that sort of thing being a very thorny issue between the Roman Catholic Church and the Polish National Catholic Church. (A large number of PNCC priests are former RCC priests.)I don’t know from the RC point of view, but I have known of several former Roman Catholic priests and deacons with holy orders in the Orthodox church in my area and I have met a few of them. I don’t know how many former Roman Catholic laymen are also in Orthodox orders but it is considerably more.
If the Roman Catholic church insisted that these men stand down as a condition of reconciliation with Rome, we would have none of it. As far as we are concerned they are valid clergy and Rome has no right (has never had the right) to judge them. So in that sense the continued presence of former Roman Catholics in the Orthodox clergy ranks could be a deal breaker, but only if the Papacy makes it so.
I should note that Orthodox and Roman Catholics have dialogued officially for decades now, and I don’t believe the issue has ever come up. I also have a suspicion that Father Thomas Fitzgerald (a prominent Orthodox clergyman and dean of an Orthodox seminary, involved in ecumenical discussions) is himself a former Roman Catholic, but it is something I haven’t been able to verify.
A little off-topic, of course.
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