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UncleBill
Guest
There if no such thing as an ex catholic! Once you are baptized and confirmed you are Catholic for eternity.
Just saying.
Just saying.
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casey_cates
Guest
As a former Religious Ed teacher myself, I can say that many parents just have their kids show up for the “Communion 1 & 2” classes and then you don’t see them again until “Confirmation 1, 2 & 3 (half year)” Classes. Most of those polled in my class 9th grade classes don’t know even know all the basics of Christianity let alone Catholicism. Yes, they might know Communion is when you eat the Body and Blood of Christ or Confession is when you tell your sins to a priest but when you ask them, “What does that mean? Why do we do that.” It’s blank stares. As a former student, I can pretty much tell you I didn’t learn much from CCD (we just had to take turns reading from a book or get lectured after spending all day at school) and I learned much more from my mom at home and self study. I think the Church as a whole needs to do a better job with our youth and getting them to understand the richness of the Church and all the graces of the Sacraments She possesses. And the why’s, and the graces and beauty of our faith, not just the what’s. Just get excited about it!!
I don’t reject the possibility that people change their minds and leave. But why do they change their minds, why do they leave? I do not speak for all Catholics but I have known many that left because they just didn’t get all the “rituals” etc. They did not know what or why the priest was doing that stuff and did not appreciate the order or liturgy of the Mass. "Jesus said, “My Body is true food, my Blood is true drink… I am the Bread of Life.” I think if more Catholics read the Bible correctly and studied the history of the early Church, they would not leave so easily. Transubstantiation is a beautiful thing.
I do though, agree, with the poster that spoke of divorce as being another issue. Especially when it is assumed that if you are divorced, you are not welcome. Not true. My parents are divorced and their marriage was annulled but my mother is remarried and still very much involved in her Catholic faith. I am very proud of her.
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EvangelCatholic
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Sort of sad reading your comments. Our faith in Christ is a journey where we are sustained in Word and Sacraments. The Eucharist is not only forgiveness of sins and the promise of salvation but our connection to Christ’s Mystical Body, the Church. I am not sure what you mean that the sacraments “didn’t seem to work”.
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casey_cates
Guest
On a lighter note. Some of this reminds me of the old saying, “You don’t want to join the Church because it’s full of sinners and hypocrites. Don’t worry, we have room for one more.”
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Peter_J
Guest
But what would you say then? (Of course we could just say “person who isn’t in full communion with Rome but once was”, but that’s awfully wordy isn’t it?)
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UncleBill
Guest
The Church teaches they are still Catholic.
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Peter_J
Guest
A pretty harsh way of putting it. (As an Orthodox poster said, that’s like saying “You can check out but you can never leave.”)
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UncleBill
Guest
Are you saying that the sacraments did not make an indelible mark on their soul?
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casey_cates
Guest
]Because it looked “one, holy, catholic, and apostolic”. And because of the sacraments.
But I found it terribly divided, not any holier than any other church, hardly universal, and apostolic succession didn’t seem so important after reading the NT again and seeing Peter needing correcting by Paul.
Jesus was asked why he hung out with sinners. He said, "It is not the healthy that need a doctor, but the sick. Fr. Jonathon Morris was on Life Today with James Robison and he said it best. **We have to have courage, not because we are perfect, but because we have a GOD Who is perfect. **The Church is universal in the fact that we do have apostolic succession and as our leadership is tasked with preserving the faith handed to us from Jesus, we are tasked with being obedient to that faith. Not all are and that is sad. I’m not always because I am a sinner. Yes, Peter was not perfect. But that doesn’t mean that the he could not be a leader and in fact was. Jesus said to him you are Peter and upon this rock I will build my Church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it. And we are still here.
As to the sacaments, they didn’t seem to work. If they were effective channels of grace, we should all be a lot holier I’d think. I sure wasn’t.
I don’t see grace as BAM you’re holy now. I see it as drops in the bucket. Grace gives me the humility to look at myself and see that I am not worthy and look at God and see that great chasm between us. (“Twas grace that taught my heart to fear and grace my fears relieved.”) And then say, I want to cross that chasm with the bridge of faith that God loves me and has forgiven me. (Confession) And once I truly receive that forgiveness and grace (Communion), I can forgive others. And when I look at others I can see me in them. I can see Jesus in them. I would agree with you that if you’re just going through the motions of the sacraments, they’re probably not going to mean much. But there may be a seed planted even if you don’t know it. We take communion so often it is often difficult to have it feel special each time. But what would life be like, if it were taken away?
Hope that doesn’t sound too sharp. Just trying to be honest about it.
Your honesty is refreshing.
But I found it terribly divided, not any holier than any other church, hardly universal, and apostolic succession didn’t seem so important after reading the NT again and seeing Peter needing correcting by Paul.
Jesus was asked why he hung out with sinners. He said, "It is not the healthy that need a doctor, but the sick. Fr. Jonathon Morris was on Life Today with James Robison and he said it best. **We have to have courage, not because we are perfect, but because we have a GOD Who is perfect. **The Church is universal in the fact that we do have apostolic succession and as our leadership is tasked with preserving the faith handed to us from Jesus, we are tasked with being obedient to that faith. Not all are and that is sad. I’m not always because I am a sinner. Yes, Peter was not perfect. But that doesn’t mean that the he could not be a leader and in fact was. Jesus said to him you are Peter and upon this rock I will build my Church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it. And we are still here.
As to the sacaments, they didn’t seem to work. If they were effective channels of grace, we should all be a lot holier I’d think. I sure wasn’t.
I don’t see grace as BAM you’re holy now. I see it as drops in the bucket. Grace gives me the humility to look at myself and see that I am not worthy and look at God and see that great chasm between us. (“Twas grace that taught my heart to fear and grace my fears relieved.”) And then say, I want to cross that chasm with the bridge of faith that God loves me and has forgiven me. (Confession) And once I truly receive that forgiveness and grace (Communion), I can forgive others. And when I look at others I can see me in them. I can see Jesus in them. I would agree with you that if you’re just going through the motions of the sacraments, they’re probably not going to mean much. But there may be a seed planted even if you don’t know it. We take communion so often it is often difficult to have it feel special each time. But what would life be like, if it were taken away?
Hope that doesn’t sound too sharp. Just trying to be honest about it.
Your honesty is refreshing.
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Peter_J
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I am not.
Are you saying that the sacraments make a *different *indelible mark on the soul of a Catholic (I mean someone in communion with Rome) than of a non-Catholic?
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Alizarin
Guest
In Pius XII’s Mystici Corporis Christi, he writes in paragraph 23, **“For not every sin, however grave it may be, is such as of its own nature to sever a man from the Body of the Church, as does schism or heresy or apostasy.” **
Both schism and heresy can be attributed to those like me who left for another religion, therefore we’re no longer part of the Body of the Church as Pius XII puts it. We’re no longer Catholic. To say otherwise would contradict the encyclical, not to mention free will since it implies being a prisoner of the faith.
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Alizarin
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Did you find this OHCA that has all perfect and holy people in it after leaving the Catholic Church? If so I would like to join you if I can.
I wasn’t looking for a perfect group of people. But I was looking for signs of a people getting better, so I could get better too. Not perfection mind you, but being made a little more holy, day by day, year by year. Didn’t find that in the Catholic Church. And no, I don’t see it much in any other church either. But the difference is, with the Catholic Church, it’s advertised as such.
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UncleBill
Guest
After reading a number of your posts, I doubt you would have the proper understanding to commit schism or heresy.
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Alizarin
Guest
From CCC 2089 “Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same; … schism is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him.”
I fit into both categories. As for heresy so do an incredible amount of Catholics. Obstinate denial of church teaching is rampant among the ranks. If we were talking about a Protestant church with no official teaching body and everyone was upfront about different views, that would be one thing, but… we’re not.
An interesting link about that: ronconte.wordpress.com/2012/05/09/diocese-survey-finds-heresy-and-apostasy/
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Peter_J
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I don’t doubt that Pope Pius XII said that, and many other things; I just don’t feel the need to study them.
Stephen168
New member
I don’t think that is possible, yet it is an excuse I’ve heard before.Thanks for your honesty Alizarin!
I see you recognized the importance of the OHCA Church. Did you find this OHCA that has all perfect and holy people in it after leaving the Catholic Church? If so I would like to join you if I can.
Or did they learn the definitions of one, holy, catholic, and apostalic in RCIA.
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Isaiah45_9
Guest
I’m curious to know what do you think Holy means?
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cheese_sdc
Guest
To the OP:
Your concern for the well being of my soul is touching, and I thank you. I’d ask you to look at the parable of the Sheep and Goats (in the 25th chapter of Matthew). There is no theological exam required for salvation.
Your concern for the well being of my soul is touching, and I thank you. I’d ask you to look at the parable of the Sheep and Goats (in the 25th chapter of Matthew). There is no theological exam required for salvation.
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Alizarin
Guest
I’d define it as “engaged in the process of sanctification”. Sanctification is something I would tie strongly to the Great Commandment of loving God and loving neighbor. Therefore, if the church in question is holy, it would be something that noticeably and steadily transforms hearts and minds, redirecting them toward love of God and neighbor.
How would you define it?
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JustaServant
Guest
Bold mine.
You know this how? Are you living thier lives? Are you in their homes? Do you know what in particular they struggle with? Are you there beside the priest in the Confession booth? Quite frankly, who are you to judge? Only One can see into the deep caverns of our hearts, including yours, God alone.
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