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water
Guest
I am very happy for you. I hope your meeting with the priest will be very beneficial to you!
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the_phoenix
Guest
Hello Gung Ho!
As for fine cigars, my grandfather who’s right around 90 years old has for many years been in the habit of enjoying one cigar after dinner when the weather is nice enough for him to sit out in the front yard.
I happen to like the smell of cigar smoke, though I don’t smoke myself.
As for the fanaticism of some Jehovah’s Witnesses, I was friends with one of the stranger ones for a good thirteen years before she actually came forth and admitted to me that she was in fact a JW. She was able to keep her secret basically because we had started out as long distance Star Trek pen pals who then switched to long distance phone calls when her health got so bad she could no longer easily write. So when she would talk about “paradise Earth” or read from what seemed like the strangest translation of the Bible I’d ever heard of, I just thought that was due to her heavy fannish involvement in science fiction coupled with her being an ex-Catholic. And when I received no cards at Christmas or my birthday, I just thought it was because of the extreme seriousness of her heart condition and other medical problems. (I once spoke to her by phone while she was in the hospital so I believe what she told me about her physical condition was true.)
This JW actually did believe the stuff about the smurfs. All of a sudden one day, she started talking about “how clever the devil was in getting his artists to choose just the right tempting shade of blue to make smurfs seductive.” (I’m paraphrasing here … the actual wording was just as unusual.) I had no idea what my friend was talking about, but since I was never a fan of the smurfs anyways, I just shrugged my shoulders and moved onto a different topic of conversation. Now from what I see on this forum, I finally understand what the heck that smurf business was all about!
After I let my JW friend know that I had become aware that she’d been deceiving me for thirteen years and let her know that I’d still be willing to remain friends as long as each of us respected the other’s religion, she invited me to drive down from Ohio to Florida to visit, stating that she had checked with her Elders, who said it would be okay for me to attend any church that I wanted (she knew I was a strong Catholic), but that she also hoped I would visit the Kingdom Hall. When I responded that her Elders had no authority over me, I believe that’s when the friendship ended.
Never having been a JW myself, still I recognize what the former JWs here are saying. Especially in hindsight, I have an easier time understanding the unusual aspects of my friendship with the Florida JW.
~~ the phoenix
As for fine cigars, my grandfather who’s right around 90 years old has for many years been in the habit of enjoying one cigar after dinner when the weather is nice enough for him to sit out in the front yard.
I happen to like the smell of cigar smoke, though I don’t smoke myself.
As for the fanaticism of some Jehovah’s Witnesses, I was friends with one of the stranger ones for a good thirteen years before she actually came forth and admitted to me that she was in fact a JW. She was able to keep her secret basically because we had started out as long distance Star Trek pen pals who then switched to long distance phone calls when her health got so bad she could no longer easily write. So when she would talk about “paradise Earth” or read from what seemed like the strangest translation of the Bible I’d ever heard of, I just thought that was due to her heavy fannish involvement in science fiction coupled with her being an ex-Catholic. And when I received no cards at Christmas or my birthday, I just thought it was because of the extreme seriousness of her heart condition and other medical problems. (I once spoke to her by phone while she was in the hospital so I believe what she told me about her physical condition was true.)
This JW actually did believe the stuff about the smurfs. All of a sudden one day, she started talking about “how clever the devil was in getting his artists to choose just the right tempting shade of blue to make smurfs seductive.” (I’m paraphrasing here … the actual wording was just as unusual.) I had no idea what my friend was talking about, but since I was never a fan of the smurfs anyways, I just shrugged my shoulders and moved onto a different topic of conversation. Now from what I see on this forum, I finally understand what the heck that smurf business was all about!
After I let my JW friend know that I had become aware that she’d been deceiving me for thirteen years and let her know that I’d still be willing to remain friends as long as each of us respected the other’s religion, she invited me to drive down from Ohio to Florida to visit, stating that she had checked with her Elders, who said it would be okay for me to attend any church that I wanted (she knew I was a strong Catholic), but that she also hoped I would visit the Kingdom Hall. When I responded that her Elders had no authority over me, I believe that’s when the friendship ended.
Never having been a JW myself, still I recognize what the former JWs here are saying. Especially in hindsight, I have an easier time understanding the unusual aspects of my friendship with the Florida JW.
~~ the phoenix
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Nan_S
Guest
How exciting! :bounce: May God bless you indeed on your journey home!Well…today I ordered my RSV from Amazon. I got the compact leather Catholic version. I think I’m going to get a few more of them too…one for my backpack at least.
I also called up the Diocese in San Jose. They put me in contact with a Priest in my area. I’m going to meet with him next week.
On a side note…where do Catholics stand on fine cigars? I like to have a really fine one with some 18 year old scotch when I go camping once or twice a year.
My Dad used to say that life was too short for cheap scotch and cheap cigars.
Fine cigars and 18-year-old scotch are to be enjoyed - in moderation, of course. Jesus not only drank (wine) and enjoyed the goodness of the earth, he rubbed his detractors’ noses in their hypocracy over the issue:
Mark 11:18-19 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, ‘He has a demon’; the Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Behold, a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’ Yet wisdom is justified by her deeds."
I don’t think they had fine cigars in the Holy Land 2,000 years ago, though.
Nan
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jschwehm
Guest
Actually, I have a friend of mine who was raised a JW and no longer believed it was right for the leaders of the JWs to ban individuals in the JWs from receiving blood transfusions.
He was expressing this belief via email with some internet friends of his. His JW wife discovered his emails and printed them off their home computer and showed them to the elders of the local congregation.
The elders charged my friend with apostasy and promoting a sect within the congregation and disfellowshipped my friend and the local JWs began to shun my friend. The shunning included his parents, sister (I believe), and his wife who eventually got permission from the elders to separate from him due to “spiritual endangerment”. They are now divorced and the last time I talked to my friend his parents had not spoken to him in years.
Now, if that is not breaking up families…
Jeff S.
www.catholicxjw.com
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kellie
Guest
You join the Catholic faith and I will celebrate with you all the way across the Pacific by having a scotch here for you.Well…today I ordered my RSV from Amazon. I got the compact leather Catholic version. I think I’m going to get a few more of them too…one for my backpack at least.
I also called up the Diocese in San Jose. They put me in contact with a Priest in my area. I’m going to meet with him next week.
On a side note…where do Catholics stand on fine cigars? I like to have a really fine one with some 18 year old scotch when I go camping once or twice a year.
My Dad used to say that life was too short for cheap scotch and cheap cigars.
Dunno about the cigar though, I don’t smoke.
As for whether the Church allows drinking and smoking, we are told to look after our bodies.
In my opinion, drinking is ok as long as it isn’t excessive, smoking, well, I stay silent on that issue in case I offend. But you won’t be disfellowshipped if you have a puff.
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Nan_S
Guest
Thank you for the first. I agree with the second.
I understand that in certain Protestant circles, apostate former members are sometimes treated very harshly. Part of it, at least, is out of fear that the departing member will draw other members into heresy and eternal damnation. This attitude is particularly prevalent in churches that preach the Catholic Church is merely a cult.
Catholics that I know do not have the same rejection problem with their apostate members. Being in possession of Christ’s truth we do not fear the lies of the devil, and actively work to both increase our own faith and bring our apostate members home. My own daughter, for one, has declared herself to be an atheist. (Her father and I agree that it is because she wants to be her own authority, and to confess God would require her to acknowledge God’s authority.) Instead of rejecting her we are trying to keep her talking to us, so that she will hear the necessary messages about salvation that her unchurched friends are ignoring.
Nan
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Protestant101
Guest
That’s fine; but I can also point you to many people who would agree with me; that JWs are not the monsters that some ex members choose to accuse them of being. I personally know some; and they are very nice law abiding people. I have known them for many years; and there’s not much you can do or say about that.
I can name ex-Catholics who have been disfellowshipped for poor church attendance.
I can name Catholics who pay $15.00 to their Priest for their priest to say special masses for people - even for people that have died? You want to talk about “Control?”
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water
Guest
This is not true. We never disfellowship anyone who has poor church attendance. On the other hand, we always encourage those who attend once time per year to come more often.
The money is just something to support the church and the priest. In a protestant church, the pastor could make $40K and up , in Catholic, they all make the same…barely around $20K. The money we give to the priest has nothing to do with the salvation of the soul.
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Nan_S
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If by “disfellowshipped” you mean “dropped from the local parish’s membership rolls” I suppose you can say that. As I am a life-long Catholic and retired military person who moved every few years and thusly have been a member of many parishes over the years, I have never, ever, ever, heard of a Catholic Tribunal of Elders publicly calling any Catholic to account for his lack of attendance and humiliating/expelling him for same. Instead, we welcome our “Christmas and Easter” members with open arms, then use the opportunity to evangelize them and encourage more frequent attendance.
Actually, the thing that grates on our more conservative members most is that the American Catholic bishops have proven extremely reluctant to “excommunicate” Catholics even for serious public apostacy. Do you remember the flap over John Kerry (a Catholic), his stance on abortion, and whether he should be refused communion by the bishop?
$15.00 is “control”??? You’ve got to be kidding me! $15 would barely pay an hour’s wages in most cities.
Masses on behalf of the dead have to do with the Catholic teachings on Purgatory, which has been thoroughly covered on many other threads. If you search on Purgatory, you’ll find plenty. You can start here: Purgatory
Nan
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Protestant101
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Prayers are free in the Bible
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Protestant101
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It is true; I know someone it happened to recently. I also know someone who was studying to join the Catholic Church; but because they did not attend regularly to the Mass, they were told not to bother. They were thoroughly lectured on what a “grave sin” it was. if that’s not control; I don’t know what is.
And speaking of “the money” I wonder if I should tell people what this poor fellow I was talking to who pays this money says about those who can’t pay any money! Making people pay for intercessory prayer??
JWs sure are not the only ones who try to “control”
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MarysRoses
Guest
If someone who wants to be Catholic cannot be bothered to attend mass, I really question their commitment in the first place. If someone must work during all times mass is available, a pastor can give a dispensation. Unless someone lives in a tiny town with one mass, its unlikely to be impossible for someone to go to mass. Even in my small town there are two times on Saturday and four on Sunday that a person could attend. We do have an attendance requirement for persons in RCIA in our parish. Missing mass without good reason is certainly an indication that someone isn’t ready to make the commitment to living a Catholic life. I know Adventists do not accept new members who refuse to conform to Adventist standards.
People who already are Catholic, are not disfellowshipped for non attendance, however, willfully missing mass without good reason requires a person to receive the sacrament of reconciliation before returning to communion.
Some persons would rather blame the Church than take responsibility for their own actions and decisions.
Mass stipends originally were offerings to support the priest. If someone cannot pay, any priest will be happy to pray for them and their loved ones anyway. Because there have been abuses at times, (as in any situation where you have people) in my diocese stipends are limited to five dollars, and a priest is allowed to accept no more than three stipends a day. No one is getting rich or being impoverished with this custom.
Its similar to the protestant custom of giving an offering to the minister who marries you.
You are acusing some in this thread of only sharing the bad experiences with the JW’s, but you don’t seem to realize you also may only be hearing bad experiences, and probably not the entire story.
MarysRoses
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Rolltide
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I guess you don’t know what is?
You cited an example of somebody studying to join the Catholic Church, so he’s not a full member to begin with. (Error number 1, since you can’t disfellow someone who isn’t a member of an organization in the first place.) Second, the reason the Catholic Church has a year-long process for admittance is to make sure people understand all that will be expected of them. As you said, the person got a thorough lecture on the definition of grave sin. If they weren’t willing to accept that definition, then they don’t fully believe what the Catholic Church believes and shouldn’t join at this point. (Error number 2, the expectation wasn’t forced upon them, but explained at length. The person was given a choice.)Third, is that the Catholic Church doesn’t even have a process of disfellowship! We do have excommunication, but that is incredibly rare and only used in cases where the actions of the individual are so contrary to church teachings as to actually threaten the integrity of the church and the soul of the believer. A person would never be expelled from the Catholic Church for not going to Mass, but they would voluntarily place themselves in mortal sin. They would, of course, still be Catholic, and be able to participate in the sacrament of reconciliation (confession) so as to remove the stain of sin. (So, error number 3, there is no disfellowship in the Catholic Church.) Error number 4 is simply faulty logic. Let me explain.
I want to take piano lessons. If I start the process, but then fail to show up to the lessons several times in a row, wasting both my money and the instructor’s time, and then proceed to get lectured for it, is that control? OR, is that simply explaining what I did wrong and questioning my commitment to the process?
Hmmm… when I was a poor college student, my grandmother died and I literally barely had enough money to feed myself and pay my bills, and still stay in school. I asked my priest for a Mass to be said for my grandmother, and he suggested a small donation, like $5. That particular week, I had to buy airline tickets to the funeral, and literally needed that $5 for gas to get to the airport. I explained this and the Mass was said without problem or expectation of payment. I will say that I did volunteer my time, the one thing I could afford, to the Church for some time after that. I did this on my own; the priest did not ask me. Further, the donations that are asked for go to the direct maintainence of the church. None of it goes to the priest, at least in our parish.
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RNRobert
Guest
Matthew 10:10-
“The laborer deserves his keep.”
1 Corinthians 9:7-12-
Who ever serves as a soldier at his own expense? Who plants a vineyard without eating its produce? Or who shepherds a flock without using some of the milk from the flock? Am I saying this on human authority, or does not the law also speak of these things? It is written in the law of Moses, “You shall not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain.” Is God concerned about oxen,or is he not really speaking for our sake? It was written for our sake, because the plowman should plow in hope, and the thresher in hope of receiving a share. If we have sown spiritual seed for you, is it a great thing that we reap a material harvest from you?
Ministers certainly are entitled to material compensation for their labors, and as somebody already mentioned, nobody’s getting rich on $5 a Mass. Besides, if Catholic priest were really in it for the money, they’d all be on TV wearing tacky suits!
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Nan_S
Guest
OK, for starters, this thread topic is about ex-Jehovah’s Witnesses, NOT about the 7th Day Adventist ideas (your church) going head-to-head with Catholic. If you want to take on the Catholics over sin definitions and mass stipends, please start another thread.
I’ve just been on the 7th Day Adventist website and found plenty there about freewill offerings and strict tithing rules, so I suggest we put the issue about modest mass stipends aside on this thread.
Ditto sin and behavior. The Catholics are not afraid to define sin and behavior rules and preach the details to our flocks, and neither are the Adventists. Our guidelines may differ with yours due to biblical interpretation, but the right of both our respective leaderships to define and enforce those guidelines is not in question. So we can put that issue to bed on this thread, too.
I did appreciate the positive comments in the official Adventist statement How Seventh-day Adventists View Roman Catholicism.
And now back to the thread topic at hand, Jehovah’s Witnesses…
Nan
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carol_marie
Guest
Who said JW’s were Monsters? Or not law abiding?
It’s not the individual JW’s who are the problem. You are right - they are good people - but in oder to follow their relgion, they MUST turn in family members to the elders and then shun them (no contact whatsoever) if the elders say so - until the elders say otherwise - sometimes it’s a lifetime. Could you imagine living your entire life without every being able to contact your own child because your elder said so? It happens over & over again.
The elders aren’t evil people either - again, they are only following their religion. JW’s follow their religion to their own detriment and here is the sad part: Everything their religion teaches about God is false.
When former JW’s realize all the time they spent serving a false religion they are justifiably angry.
Since you haven’t been a JW - you really can’t understand the emotional damage that religion does to a person and you have no right to judge those who have suffered.
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Marilena
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water
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I am agreed with Nan. If protestant101 wanted to discuss the Catholic problems, please open a new thread. Currently, your replies do not really prove anything.
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mark_a
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GungHo
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Very interesting. They do live in their own little world don’t they? You know, it was probably a really good idew that I stopped going to the meetings when I did. At the last convention, it was all I could do not to sneeze and yell “Bullsh*t.” I mean it was really wierd. When I would actually listen to what was being said, and apply the critical thinking skills that I had learned (college classes really helped) I just could not believe that anyone was going along with it. But it got even stranger when I would look around and see all the heads nodding in agreement, and people taking notes.
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