Exactly what is Deism?

[oldcelt]

I agree with you, though the alternative is to believe in moral truths existing in the same way that mathematical truths exist. It would then be debatable whether such truths would require a creator God (just as it is a point of debate as to whether it take a creator God to have 1+1=2 or A=A).

But personally, I agree. This has nothing to do with whether or not God intervenes or answers prayers, so Deism is perfectly compatible with belief in an objective morality, as long as that objective morality would be discoverable through reason (and Catholics argue that it is, through natural law, thus would be granting that a Deist could discover that “murder is morally wrong” without the help of revelation).

I am weak on some of the terminology being used here since I have only taken as much philosophy as I HAD to many years ago. James has started a thread about objective truth that I look forward to reading. As you point out, Deism is compatible with objective truth through reason, which is the point I was trying too make, apparently poorly, last night. No divine revelation needed.

The Deists with whom I associate do not exclude the possibility of an afterlife. We have had many discussions on how that might happen without the involvement of a God. Generally, we arrive at some sort of dream state created by the thoughts of the individual.
From a scientific standpoint, we are trying to determine how the electricity contained in our brains could be held together in a form that would allow this or consciousness to continue after physical death. There is some work on static attraction that might lead us there one day.

 

[oldcelt]

We can assign meaning (purpose) to our words, but only God can assign meaning to our lives. Those who think they are assigning meaning to their lives are only saying what they like or what they don’t like. The hedonist, for example, likes pleasure. But the purpose for which he was born was hardly to indulge himself in pleasures. That pursuit might satisfy any other animal as the purpose for which he exists. But something gnaws at man’s inner being, a hunger for something more significant than food or drink or sex or power or fame. What gnaws at his inner being is a hunger for purpose more lasting, more divine. The meaningfulness of a man’s life can only be measured by the degree to which he satisfies that hunger.

I believe that you feel that one set of beliefs applies to all mankind: “only God can assign meaning to our lives. Those who think they are assigning meaning to their lives are only saying what they like or what they don’t like.” Many people, myself included, find great fulfillment in creation. In this case, the creation is within human capabilities, but remains after our physical deaths. We don’t require a particular, father-figure God to be fulfilled or happy.

 

[oldcelt]

But mostly the perfect love of God, without which we all live in fear.

You cannot make that statement as if it applies to all humanity, because it does not. Some fear is natural and necessary for self-preservation and other earthly functions. To me, a man with no fear is either crazy or a fool.
As I said above, Deists do not require a father-figure God to feel safe and happy at the appropriate times, and fearful when that is called for.

 

[oldcelt]

Oh how I love those words “may” and “could.” Too bad their partners, “may not” and “could not” don’t get allowed into the sentence.

What relevance does the article have to a discussion of Deism?

Words such as these are needed to demonstrate that the work is incomplete. In this case it appears to be promising, but further research is need to show that such processes could be responsible for life on earth. If proved, it changes the whole ballgame in science from a somewhat Darwinist view to something very new.

An article such as this is extremely important when discussing Deism since Deists do not believe that God created life on Earth or humankind. God simply began the process of creation; gave it a kick-start, so to speak. The particulars developed on their own.

 

[John_Jerpe]

When I think about deism, it helps me to recognize that creating a universe is an insufficient explanation for its current existence. The universe has to be maintained; someone or something keeps it here. Particle physics helps me; sub-atomic particles cannot move randomly;we wouldn’t be here. Yes, I know that the universe and the people in it don’t always move and exist in a manner that God would want, but that involves is the age-old question of our freedom to interfere (to sin) with God’s universe to a limited extent. “Limited” is an important word here because I think this thing called sin is corrected by the phenomenon of evolution. We cannot stop evolution (God’s love for us), but we can sin and make the process more painful than it has to be. So, God loves us and will not leave us to our own devices (our sinfulness). He maintains the universe He created. It isn’t easy to accept if one is one of those people who are afraid to trust and to take chances on people or on God. . I suspect most of their relationships reflect that.

John Jerpe

 

[Charlemagne_III]

An article such as this is extremely important when discussing Deism since Deists do not believe that God created life on Earth or humankind. God simply began the process of creation; gave it a kick-start, so to speak. The particulars developed on their own.

And how was this insight revealed to them other than as a guess?

 

[Charlemagne_III]

To me, a man with no fear is either crazy or a fool.
As I said above, Deists do not require a father-figure God to feel safe and happy at the appropriate times, and fearful when that is called for.

Religious people who follow their religion as best they can need fear nothing.

It is those who do not feel God is in their corner who have reason to fear.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

As I said above, Deists do not require a father-figure God to feel safe and happy at the appropriate times, and fearful when that is called for.

Apparently Deists need nothing but themselves.

So at the hour of their death, they have nothing left but fear.

They certainly can’t “feel safe and happy.”

I don’t see a significant difference between Deism and Atheism.

 

[oldcelt]

And how was this insight revealed to them other than as a guess?

Through observation and rational discussion, like just about every other religion in the world. Revelation is not part of Deism.

 

[oldcelt]

**Religious people who follow their religion as best they can need fear nothing. **

It is those who do not feel God is in their corner who have reason to fear.

I’d have to guess that you haven’t interviewed the number of World War Two vets that I have, including a Bataan Death March survivor (Glen Himes, Johnsonburg, PA- you can look him up. Most, including my father, were devout men who unashamedly admitted to fear on any number of occasions.
Human’s, regardless of what the believe the location to be do not want to die and express that as fear. In fact, a death wish (called self harm here) is legal grounds for commitment in many jurisdictions.

 

[oldcelt]

Apparently Deists need nothing but themselves.

So at the hour of their death, they have nothing left but fear.

They certainly can’t “feel safe and happy.”

I don’t see a significant difference between Deism and Atheism.

There is a substantial difference…it is called God. It isn’t your view of God, but God none-the-less. I feel as safe and happy as the average human I would imagine, though that is pretty hard to quantify.

So far as the hour of death, I’ll just have to wait and see. Hopefully, it will be a nice long wait. Also, since Deists do not necessarily exclude an after-life, I certainly do not, then I have great hope of being their after my physical death.

 

[oldcelt]

When I think about deism, it helps me to recognize that creating a universe is an insufficient explanation for its current existence. The universe has to be maintained; someone or something keeps it here. Particle physics helps me; sub-atomic particles cannot move randomly;we wouldn’t be here. Yes, I know that the universe and the people in it don’t always move and exist in a manner that God would want, but that involves is the age-old question of our freedom to interfere (to sin) with God’s universe to a limited extent. “Limited” is an important word here because I think this thing called sin is corrected by the phenomenon of evolution. We cannot stop evolution (God’s love for us), but we can sin and make the process more painful than it has to be. So, God loves us and will not leave us to our own devices (our sinfulness). He maintains the universe He created. It isn’t easy to accept if one is one of those people who are afraid to trust and to take chances on people or on God. . I suspect most of their relationships reflect that.

John Jerpe

Hi John,

Interesting thoughts. Most Deists I know speak as you do about continual creation. We believe that God set it to work on its own and science has even postulated how long it will last. That may be an easier way to teach evolution, call it “Ongoing Creation.”

 

[tonyrey]

Like deism all forms of atheism are weak for precisely the same reason. There is no compelling evidence in favour of their interpretation of reality. Theism at least provides a rational basis for the principles of liberty, equality and fraternity. Neither deism nor atheism can explain why life is valuable, purposeful and meaningful.

It doesn’t follow that they were rational with regard to the **basis **of the principles of liberty, equality and fraternity. If we are not all children of the same Father there is no reason why we should regard one another as brothers and sisters.

I have explained several times why I feel that life is valuable Tony…you just don’t like my answers.

It isn’t a question of feeling, liking or disliking but logic! How can life be valuable if God takes no active interest in it?

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Through observation and rational discussion, like just about every other religion in the world. Revelation is not part of Deism.

Deism is strictly speculative. You can call it rational, and someone else can call it irrational. How do you prove to someone else that you are not just guessing about the nature of the Deity?

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Human’s, regardless of what the believe the location to be do not want to die and express that as fear. In fact, a death wish (called self harm here) is legal grounds for commitment in many jurisdictions.

I don’t believe Christians have a death wish. They just don’t fear death because they anticipate something joyful on the other side. That joy fills them with hope whether they are confronting danger or not. Only the person who believes death is final has a lifelong gnawing fear of death, even when he denies it.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

There is a substantial difference…it is called God. It isn’t your view of God, but God none-the-less. I feel as safe and happy as the average human I would imagine, though that is pretty hard to quantify.

I daresay youth and good health are very much on your side. But the wise squirrel stores nuts for the winter in fear of not making it through. This is a healthy fear; and so is giving thanks to the Creator and learning to love Him as Father and being prepared to earn your place with him in the hereafter.

 

[oldcelt]

Deism is strictly speculative. You can call it rational, and someone else can call it irrational. How do you prove to someone else that you are not just guessing about the nature of the Deity?

I don’t even try. Nor do I call anyone else’s God irrational.

 

[oldcelt]

I daresay youth and good health are very much on your side. But the wise squirrel stores nuts for the winter in fear of not making it through. This is a healthy fear; and so is giving thanks to the Creator and learning to love Him as Father and being prepared to earn your place with him in the hereafter.

I’d like to thank you for the chuckle…but the forum name is not misleading.

 

[oldcelt]

I don’t believe Christians have a death wish. They just don’t fear death because they anticipate something joyful on the other side. That joy fills them with hope whether they are confronting danger or not. Only the person who believes death is final has a lifelong gnawing fear of death, even when he denies it.

Well, we obviously have known very different Christians and Catholics. When their life was placed in imminent peril, they feared and weren’t afraid to tell you so.

I have to ask, how do you know the minds of these other people who don’t happen to share your beliefs?

 

[oldcelt]

It doesn’t follow that they were rational with regard to the basis of the principles of liberty, equality and fraternity. If we are not all children of the same Father there is no reason why we should regard one another as brothers and sisters.

I wasn’t aware that we did. I have always viewed my fellow Americans as precisely that, fellow Americans. My brothers and sisters are my siblings.

It isn’t a question of feeling, liking or disliking but logic! How can life be valuable if God takes no active interest in it?

So, you logically conclude that since I don’t share your view of God that I must be unhappy?