Exactly what is Deism?

[Charlemagne_III]

If Aristotle was a Deist, that would be because he did not have access to Revelations.

 

[oldcelt]

Not all Deists believe that God is an absolute. All at least believe that the available evidence shows that God is a possibility.

 

[oldcelt]

The answer to the first objection is that anything less than God is necessarily imperfect because only God is perfect.

The answer to the second objection is that justice does not preclude mercy. A just God would mercifully forgive our sins on the condition that we repent.

That’s two…it is a great deal more complex that that.

“I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation, whose purposes are modeled after our own - a God, in short, who is but a reflection of human frailty. It is enough for me to contemplate the mystery of conscious life perpetuating itself through all eternity, to reflect upon the marvelous structure of the universe which we can dimly perceive and to try humbly to comprehend even an infinitesimal part of the intelligence manifested in Nature.” Albert Einstein

Einstein gives more credit for the creation to God than many Deists. Many believe that God is what Thomas Paine called the “power of first cause.”

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Not all Deists believe that God is an absolute. All at least believe that the available evidence shows that God is a possibility.

What best evidence would there be for a Deist that God even exists?

 

[oldcelt]

What best evidence would there be for a Deist that God even exists?

The lack of a “beginner.” There are some notions for the start of our universe…some better than others. Some see order in other things and attribute that to God. I believe that he simply put things in motion.

I think, but am not certain, that my beliefs correspond to another creation story where God stuck his finger in the quagmire and stirred it, setting off creation. That, however, does not account for the fact that the universe is expanding.

 

[tonyrey]

If we accept that God is intervening in human affairs, there are contradictions that are difficult or perhaps impossible to explain.

If the world requires constant intervention by God to set things right, it would seem to be an imperfect creation.

A physical universe is necessarily imperfect because the laws of nature cannot allow for every contingency.

If the Lord is all just, any acts of mercy on his part would seem to undermine that justice.

Divine mercy and justice are reconciled because we are forgiven to the precise extent that we forgive others:

“Forgive us** as **we forgive those who trespass against us”…

 

[tonyrey]

The lack of a “beginner.” There are some notions for the start of our universe…some better than others. Some see order in other things and attribute that to God. I believe that he simply put things in motion.

I think, but am not certain, that my beliefs correspond to another creation story where God stuck his finger in the quagmire and stirred it, setting off creation. That, however, does not account for the fact that the universe is expanding.

To put things in motion** for no purpose whatsoever** is a hypothesis which doesn’t correspond to the immense value of life nor to the way every rational person behaves nor to legal systems throughout the world nor to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

 

[oldcelt]

A physical universe is necessarily imperfect because the laws of nature cannot allow for every contingency.

Divine mercy and justice are reconciled because we are forgiven to the precise extent that we forgive others:

“Forgive us** as **we forgive those who trespass against us”…

The acts of nature are not viewed as intervention by God by Deists. We are born because of the union of our parents…nothing more…we live in a dangerous, but impartial world…and we die when our body either gives out or befalls some injury or illness. No plan, no intervention, no cruelty …just life on Earth.

 

[tonyrey]

That’s one of the things Aquinas was wrong about.

Unsubstantiated assertion.

 

[tonyrey]

The acts of nature are not viewed as intervention by God by Deists. We are born because of the union of our parents…nothing more…we live in a dangerous, but impartial world…and we die when our body either gives out or befalls some injury or illness. No plan, no intervention, no cruelty …just life on Earth.

Then how did purposeful activity originate?

 

[oldcelt]

To put things in motion** for no purpose whatsoever** is a hypothesis which doesn’t correspond to the immense value of life nor to the way every rational person behaves nor to legal systems throughout the world nor to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

You’re right…because the beginning has nothing to do with the things you list. Mankind is inherently a moral creature with the obvious exceptions, and God is not needed for any of the things you mention. They are well within our scope.

Starting a universe…not so much.

 

[tonyrey]

As adawgi pointed out, Jefferson and Franklin are often referred to as Deists.

At the Constitutional Convention, 1787, James Madison recorded the following remarks made by Benjamin Franklin to the president of the Convention:

"I have lived, Sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth – that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without his aid? We have been assured, Sir, in the sacred writings, that ‘except the Lord build the House they labor in vain that build it.’ I firmly believe this; and I also believe that without his concurring aid we shall succeed in this political building no better than the Builders of Babel; We shall be divided by our little partial local interests; our projects will be confounded, and we ourselves shall become a reproach and bye word down to future ages. And what is worse, mankind may hereafter from this unfortunate instance, despair of establishing Government by Human Wisdom and leave it to chance, war, and conquest.

"I therefore beg leave to move – that henceforth prayers imploring the assistance of Heaven and its blessings on our deliberations, be held in this Assembly every morning before we proceed to business, and that one or more of the Clergy of this City be requested to officiate in that service.”

And here is a poem written by Jefferson to his daughter several weeks before his death.

A Death Bed Advice from T.J. to M.R.

Life’s visions are vanished, its dreams are no more,
Dear friend of my bosom, why bathed in tears,
I go to my fathers, I welcome the shore,
Which crowns all my hopes or which buries my cares.

Then farewell my dear, my loved daughter adieu,
The last pang of life is parting from you.
Two seraphs await me long shrouded in death,
I will bear them your love on my last parting breath.

The two seraphs referred to are Jefferson’s other daughter and his wife, both deceased.

Irrefutable!

 

[tonyrey]

You’re right…because the beginning has nothing to do with the things you list. Mankind is inherently a moral creature with the obvious exceptions, and God is not needed for any of the things you mention. They are well within our scope.

Starting a universe…not so much.

How can moral creatures be purposeless? And if they are not purposeless how did they become purposeful?

 

[oldcelt]

How can moral creatures be purposeless? And if they are not purposeless how did they become purposeful?

My purpose is to do my best to improve this world for those who follow me. That is quite a purpose in my eyes.

 

[tonyrey]

How can moral creatures be purposeless? And if they are not purposeless how did they become purposeful?

No doubt but you haven’t explained how you are capable of choosing to do your best. Or do you do it automatically?

 

[oldcelt]

No doubt but you haven’t explained how you are capable of choosing to do your best. Or do you do it automatically?

I try to match my capabilities to the issues at hand. There is never a shortage of things that can be improved. Generally, I lean toward helping the schools in my area.

 

[tonyrey]

No doubt but you haven’t explained how

Where does your willpower come from? Or is it effortless?

 

[Charlemagne_III]

The lack of a “beginner.” There are some notions for the start of our universe…some better than others. Some see order in other things and attribute that to God. I believe that he simply put things in motion.

Does it seem to you that God put things in motion for a reason? If so, what does that reason (plan) seem to be?

 

[Aloysium]

My purpose is to do my best to improve this world for those who follow me. . .

Followed:

The acts of nature are not viewed as intervention by God by Deists. We are born because of the union of our parents…nothing more…we live in a dangerous, but impartial world…and we die when our body either gives out or befalls some injury or illness. No plan, no intervention, no cruelty …just life on Earth.

. . . my beliefs correspond to another creation story where God stuck his finger in the quagmire and stirred it, setting off creation. . .

. . . Mankind is inherently a moral creature with the obvious exceptions, and God is not needed . . .

The first quote relates to purpose and morality.
Many people who do not believe in God would agree with it.

However, as far as I can understand the thinking, I believe they are vestiges of a moral understanding that was originally founded in a belief in God.
With time these would eventually phase out as they have no basis other than the person’s inclinations, that reflect a belief system which is not held by the person.

There is no goodness, no morality in a quagmire.
What is a moral creature if there is no moral order to understand? There is only neurosis: Id vs Super-ego. Senseless, purposeless emotions.
Animals are amoral; if we are animals, morality is simply some instinct meant to preserve the group which protects the individual so he/she can reproduce.
Why would one possibly sacrifice anything simply to follow some meaningless behavior pattern. In the end it doesn’t matter.

Happy would be the psychopaths free to do whatever it takes to survive.
Happier would be those who leave this horror behind.
Anxiety and the fear of death, in the quagmire are not reactions to the potential loss of a good but simply reflex emotions, which only prolong misery.

If there exists a moral order, if there is goodness, justice and the potential not to do good, this order must have been created by the same Person who created the natural world.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

If there exists a moral order, if there is goodness, justice and the potential not to do good, this order must have been created by the same Person who created the natural world.

This is the million dollar question. If the Deist believes God created the universe, he must believe that he created it for a reason. The moral order is among all the things of Creation. For what purpose was the moral order created? Or does the Deist believe that the moral order is simply an unintended consequence of Creation?