Exactly what music is secular?

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Following on from another thread, I am wondering exactly how secular music is defined. Sometimes it’s clear whether music is sacred of secular. The Monteverdi Vespers are sacred music; the overture to the Marriage of Figaro is secular music. But in between those there is a lot of room for nuance.

Does sacred music need originally to have been composed for the liturgy? Take Schubert’s Ave Maria. The music was originally composed for Adam Storck’s translation of part of Walter Scott’s poem The Lady of the Lake. The first performances were in a secular setting. Only later was it adapted as a primarily religious work. Gounod’s Ave Maria is similar: originally, the music was composed as an improvised melody based on Bach’s 1st prelude from The Well-Tempered Clavier. Later the tune was set to a poem by the French deist poet Alphonse de Lamartine. Only after this was the Ave Maria fitted to the tune. Do these two pieces therefore count as sacred or as secular?

Another category would be settings of religious texts for the concert hall rather than church. For example, Beethoven’s Missa solemnis, Verdi’s Requiem, Berlioz’s Grande Messe des morts and Te Deum, Dvořák’s Requiem, and Brahms’s German Requiem are all essentially secular works for the concert hall, albeit based on liturgical or biblical texts. Nonetheless, extracts of some of these works are sometimes used in the liturgy (e.g. the Libera me from Verdi’s Requiem was sung at the funeral of Diana, Princess of Wales). Mendelssohn’s Lobgesang (2nd symphony) could also potentially fall into this category. Of course, this category would rarely arise, as the works cited require a symphony orchestra, chorus, and soloists, and cannot normally be staged in most churches, but parts could be used in very grand services such as a royal wedding or state funeral.

Yet another category would be sacred music used as a relatively small part of an otherwise secular work. For example, the Easter Hymn from Cavalleria rusticana. I have heard this performed by a chapel choir in the context of the liturgy. How far could this be taken? For example, could the Salve Regina from Poulenc’s Dialogues of the Carmelites be used in the liturgy? Again, I see practical difficulties, such as finding singers of necessary standard, an orchestra, and a guillotine, but in principle, could something like this be considered sacred music? An easier example would be the Five Negro Spirituals from Tippett’s A Child of Our Time. These are unequivocally sacred texts that belong to a long tradition of African American sacred music and can very easily be performed by any choir of moderate quality, and yet they are taken from a secular work by a non-religious composer. The same could go for parts of Bernstein’s Mass.

What about instrumental music? We tend to assume that organ music is inherently sacred, simply because the place most of us hear the organ is in church. But much organ music of course was originally composed simply as music, not with any sacred function in mind. The most obvious example is Widor’s Toccata, which is commonly associated with liturgical use, but is in fact a movement from a symphony.
 
I love Monteverdi or at least I am trying to. The first part of his Ego Flos Campi sounds a bit weird.
 
OH goodness. 😜
Rose, thanks a lot, LOL
Just kidding friend. 💗

To the OP:
You’re going to have people come on and post documents, tell you that instrumental music is specifically not permitted, that secular music is evil, and that modern hymn composers are all losers.

I don’t ascribe to all of that. I’ve never had a priest, Monsignor or Bishop or Archbishop disappointed in what I selected for Mass.

The people of CAF?
Much more critical of Catholic musicians.

The bottom line is that I work for my boss, a holy priest and he likes what I put forth with the 6 choirs and 5 cantors. We work well together, and I use ALL KINDS of music. Some things are better for different Masses, as the people who go to them are from different generations and different cultures.
But yes, when the choir is mostly absent, I play a piano or organ version of a hymn and use that as the post-communion Meditation. Our parish enjoys having some time after communion and not a rush to the door. So they expect some quiet music.

I play the psalms exactly as written…no “close enough” lyrics. Exact.
I only use approved Mass settings, but again, those that the choirs and parishioners can do well.
If we rehearse something for Mass and and hour before Mass begins it doesn’t sound perfect? We table it for another time.

The bottom line is…music directors select music that supports the readings at Mass, reflects the proper Liturgical season, and is appropriate to the capabilities of the people.

And it can vary.
There are spirituals in the hymnal. There are Shaker hymns in the hymnal. There are traditional Latin hymns in the hymnal. For Good Friday we sang the Reproaches. Holy Thursday, Pange Lingua, etc. The different Sequences.Much of Mass music is proscribed.
But we do have options.
Many.
Despite what people will say.

I’ll stop know and unsubscribe.
If you’d like to discuss more in depth, please do send a PM. 😎
Great topic, my favorite, actually.
God bless you.
I pray your parish musicians enjoy your full support.
 
Thanks (though I don’t know whether you’ll see this!) Yes, I did see a few earlier threads on related topics and there do seem to be quite a few documents posted, but none of them really answered my question, so I thought I’d give a new thread a go! The documents seem to deal with abstract ideas rather than real examples, so I have read quite a lot about Gregorian chant being the highest form of Catholic sacred music and establishing a pattern for all subsequent music, as well as a general observation that the pipe organ is specifically associated with the Latin Rite of the Catholic Church.

What sparked my imagination was this reply, which may be the kind of thing to which you refer. It’s all very well saying “No secular music in any Mass”, but when is music secular? Some people seem to come down on a really narrow interpretation of sacred music, making me suspect that they would even forbid Tippett’s arrangements of the Negro Spirituals on account of their coming from a secular work. (For anyone not familiar with the work, I don’t use “Negro” in a racist manner, that is what Sir Michael himself called them. No doubt these days they are called African American spirituals.)
 
Personally for me the lyrics are more important. I don’t care what kind of music or musical instruments being used. Some of these music are so beautiful and they are good with me.
 
It has to be the words surely. You could play “It wasn’t me” by Shaggy on an organ but that wouldn’t make it liturgical.
 
For by far the greater part of the history of the Church, all of the music you mentioned would have been strictly forbidden in a liturgical setting and far beyond the pale. Instrumental music was restricted to the organ alone and was forbidden in any context except accompanying the singing of the text of the liturgy. Purely instrumental music was out of the question.

For most of the history of the Church, the only music allowed was the singing of the actual text of the mass, by clerics, not lay people. The congregation was not allowed to sing along, and women were not allowed to sing at all (except nuns in a cloister). They weren’t explicitly allowed to sing during the liturgy until the 1950s, and before then, the practice was controversial.

Congregational singing and the singing of hymns during the liturgy are both recent developments (on the time-scale of the Church) and were influenced by Protestant practices.

The singing of non-liturgical religious songs and hymns was restricted to non-liturgical settings.

There have always been controversies about what is allowed or not allowed during the liturgy. Whether boys could sing, for example, or whether castrati can, or whether polyphony was allowed, and so on. In view of the history of church music, even a piece like Ave Maria would seem to be a sign of “anything goes”.
 
It has to be the words surely. You could play “It wasn’t me” by Shaggy on an organ but that wouldn’t make it liturgical.
I’d never heard of this Shaggy, but no, I don’t suppose you’d play his music in church in an arrangement for organ. My real puzzle is about organ music where it isn’t so clear cut. Obviously Messiaen’s organ pieces are sacred music as they are written as meditations on specific aspects of the Catholic faith, such as the Eucharist, Pentecost, the Church, the Holy Trinity, and various verses from the Bible. But what about organ symphonies, e.g. by Franck, Langlais, Vierne, and Widor? Would people feel that movements from those could be played in church? In the UK pieces like Elgar’s Nimrod from the Enigma Variations and William Walton’s Crown Imperial are commonly played on the organ in church. Do Catholics tend to think that this is permitted? Nimrod is a musical tribute to Elgar’s friendship with August Jaeger, which isn’t a sacred subject. Crown Imperial is a march composed for the coronation of Edward VIII (and actually used for the coronation of his younger brother George VI and niece Elizabeth II). I suppose a coronation is a liturgical event, but I don’t know that I’d call it sacred music.
 
You really wouldn’t play Shaggy at church, it would be worse than that scene on The Simpsons when they sang “In the Garden of Eden”.

I would have thought so long as the music isn’t offensive it would be down to the discretion of the priest.
 
I thought this was pretty good. I know it doesn’t answer all the questions, but enjoy.

 
As an aside, during the Renaissance period a number of polyphonic masses were composed incorporating popular folk or secular song tunes used as the cantus firmus. Examples include the ’ L’homme armé’ masses or the ‘Westron Wynde’ masses.
 
As a person who does not believe that songs have to be sung in only one way, what you referred to indeed makes sense.

The mass is a celebration, a banquet, a feast, albeit the Lord’s. Would we not celebrate then? And how do we do that, if not in ways we know how - singing?

Making music is nothing new but since the ancient of days. String instruments, harp, cymbal were used in worship, which was a commonality for King David as seen in his writings (psalms) and actions.

And different musical instruments give different genre of songs, which is obvious.

Again, as I said, what’s more important is the lyrics and our hearts are right when we sing them.

God bless.
 
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It has to be the words surely.
This. For me, it is the content of the lyrics that not only make up the dividing line between secular and Christian music; it defines what is Christian music. A melody by itself has not spiritual content, but if a Christian lyric is sung to it, then it becomes a Christian song. If a secular lyric is automatically associated with that melody, then it is a secular song, UNLESS a Christian lyric is sung to it (“House of the Rising Sun” + words to “Amazing Grace” comes to mind.

I play euphonium solos with karaoke tracks in a few Protestant (Baptist, Church of God) congregations around here, and I play only gospel songs that the people already know. Sometimes I even tell them the page number in the hymnal, so they can sing along. One exception is “You Raise Me Up”; it is a popular song, but the lyrics (especially the second verse) have a strong spiritual content. Another is “O Waly Waly”, which is a folk song, but which makes an effective setting for the lyrics of “When I Survey the Wondrous Cross”. When I play that melody, I tell the people to think of those words.

If there is to be a rule about music at Mass, I think that it should be worded to exclude all non-Christian music, and all Christian music that is obviously non- (or anti-) Catholic. This would exclude obviously popular songs like “Bridge Over Troubled Water” (yes, I have heard that sung by a Southern Gospel group), non-Christian hymns like “Simple Gifts”, and melodies that have no accompanying lyrics. That’s what I think; this forum being what it is, there will be disagreement.

D
 
I totally agree with everything that pianistclare stated so beauifully, even describing the posts from the OP and the CAF!

I especially agree with: “The bottom line is…music directors select music that supports the readings at Mass, reflects the proper Liturgical season, and is appropriate to the capabilities of the people.” ,

Although preferring metrical style Psalms, I always use the correct Psalm of the day, but the lyrics are usually paraphrased, which is permitted. Approved Mass settings…check. Although I rehearse all my choirs together during the week, and not one hour before Mass, I will also table a song until it’s right. Sometimes you need to rehearse a particular song weeks in advance. One must also remember, that just because the choir(s) are strong and good and get the song right, does not relate it to being a “performance,” that was mentioned by someone on another thread.

With that said, I follow the readings and theme of the Sunday or season as best as possible too. It was always my understanding that good, solid Catholic music should have some biblical references to it, which then sets it apart from secular music and some other non-denominational Christian churches.

Yeah, I like this discussion too!
 
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