Exactly who is the Anti Christ?

[Phil_H]

auhsoj88:

Conclusions:

1. Antichrist could not possibly be the Pope since he meets none of the qualifications. The Pope has never denied that Jesus is the Christ, has never denied the Father and Son, and he has never severed Jesus.

For those of you who say the Pope is antichrist, the onus is upon you to** prove what you charge**, and you must provide genuine historical documents to back up what you say.

Therefore, just who CANNOT be antichrist as shown by Holy Scripture?

1. Now, anyone who calls Jesus Christ a liar, has denied Him, 1John 5:10. Anyone who does not believe what He said, therefore, denies Him, as they have called Him a liar. What He said is recorded in Holy Scripture as we all know. Take a look Here and you will see many verses in Scripture which are denied by non-Catholics today. The statistical evidence is there; it cannot
   be denied. Therefore, you tell me, Just Who Is Antichrist?
2. Now who severs Jesus? He commanded that there be one fold and one shepherd in John 10:16. How many deny these words of His and sever His Body into ever smaller pieces? In 1981 there were about 20,780 splits in the Body of Christ among non-Catholics. Today there are over 33,800 non-Catholic ecclesial communities, as documented in the World Christian Encyclopedia, April 2001 edition. That is an increase of 65% in the severing of the body of Christ in just 20 years. That works out to a rate of over 125% increase every 40 years at the present rate of splitting. Here are the very words of Jesus, “He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters.” Matthew 12:30 What could Jesus have said to be more clear than what He said here? The severing of His body tens of thousands of times is certainly not “gathering” is it? So He says to “gather”, but non-Catholics are scattering by their incessant creation of yet more and more splits of His Body. It is all too obvious that scattering is “against me” as He said, and being against Christ
   is the purest definition of Antichrist. “Has Christ been divided up?” 1Corinthians 1:13. Yes, drastically, and the evidence is overwhelming that it is divided by Protestantism, and not by the Papacy or the Catholic Church. Therefore, you tell me, just Who Is doing the severing? It is Protestantism with its never ending creation of new sects, severing Jesus into ever more
   and ever smaller pieces.

The answer is so obvious as to just who is clearly the Antichrist.

1. Now just who is the deceiver and the denier of Jesus come in the flesh? The deceiver is anyone who does not speak the truth, just as Satan deceived Eve in Genesis 3:5. The denier, as I have already shown, are those who do not believe the words of Jesus Christ.

A Final Note:
According to what Holy Scripture has clearly told us, Just Who Is
Antichrist?

I have studied and read much on the anti-Christ and there appears to only be speculation. I agree that it would not be a Pope since the anti-christ will claim to be the messiah. That just would not be acceptable and believable by any Christian. There has been speculation that many were the anti-christ, Hitler, Nero, Atilla the Hun etc. There are schools of thought that we are now living in the tribulation and others that we are not. There does not seem to be much hard evidence on this matter. I think we can probably speculate that he will be a man of considerable power and postion, perhaps a future leader of the UN or something like that. It appears that he will be born in the middle east or there is at least agreement on that theory. Beyond that I think we can only wait and see. I cannot believe it would be a Pope or any Christian religious figure. It is a troubling question to which there seem to be few real answers.

 

[Phil_H]

Tietjen:

Interesting, but I don’t know that Protestantism is really the anti-Christ. As a Catholic, I certainly know that the anti-Christ isn’t our Church or our Pope. I think the original author proved his/her case against the anti-Christ being the Church, but I don’t agree with the author’s suggestion that the anti-Christ is the Protestant denominations.

Thank you for your thoughts. Protestants are as much Christian as are Roman Catholics. Some may “bash” Roman Catholics just as some Roman Catholics “bash” Protestants but we do all worship the same God and believe our salvation is through our faith and our baptism. Perhaps if we don’t all come together as baptized Christians it will be someone from Islam or another religion who does not believe Jesus was the Son of God and the promised Messiah. Satan is the great deceiver. He will use someone who can sway the masses into believing he is the “christ”.

 

[Trelow]

ahimsaman72:

I have seen folks here on the forum (Catholics) mention Nero as the most likely candidate given the evidences. I believe there are possibly two paths presented in the Scriptures. There is THE ANTICHRIST and there are the anti-christs. The anti-christs would be those who generally deny Christ and live out their lives in such a way and then there is THE ANTICHRIST spoken of along with the beast and false prophet. Just some thoughts to consider.

I don’t believe it is a future person. I rather see the evidences as the preterists do in that all those prophecies have already been fulfilled. But then, I could always be wrong.

Peace…

I was always taught that it was Nero.

 

[ahimsaman72]

Trelow:

I was always taught that it was Nero.

It seems very plausible. I wish I had the evidences the poster gave a while back. It was very convincing indeed. And, most people would readily admit he was a horrible enough person. Of course, raised Southern Baptist, you know who it was always said to be (you know, the man in Rome) . I don’t believe that, however.

Peace…

 

[SCTA-1]

vern humphrey:

When you guys get done with numerology, are you going to break out the Ouija board?

I wasn’t being serious, I was showing how it can be abused.No need for a Ouija board unless you use one.

 

[vern_humphrey]

SCTA-1:

I wasn’t being serious, I was showing how it can be abused.No need for a Ouija board unless you use one.

Oh, I knew your post was tongue-in-cheek – but some people are deep into numerology. I wonder if they also follow Pythagoras’ prescrived diet, as well?http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon12.gif

 

[blainethepaine]

Hi Trelow,

Nero was an antichrist and a type of the future Antichrist, but he was not the “man of sin” St. Paul says will be revealed at the end of the world. We will only know who that man is after or during the “revolt” (2 Thessalonians 2,3).

While there is some consensus about the personal details of the Antichrist within the writing of the ECF’s, none is binding on our faith (though some are fairly convincing on scriptural grounds). The Catholic Encyclopedia online, in its article “Antichrist” says:

“It must be kept in mind that extra-Scriptural tradtition furnishes us no revealed supplement to the Biblical data concerning Antichrist. While these latter are sufficient to make the believer recognize the “man of sin” at the time of his coming, the lack of any additional reliable information should put us on our guard against the daydreams of the Irvingites, the Mormons, and other recent proclaimers of new revelations.”

Hope that helps.

Peace to you,
jack

 

[Trelow]

blainethepaine:

Hi Trelow,

Nero was an antichrist and a type of the future Antichrist, but he was not the “man of sin” St. Paul says will be revealed at the end of the world. We will only know who that man is after or during the “revolt” (2 Thessalonians 2,3).

While there is some consensus about the personal details of the Antichrist within the writing of the ECF’s, none is binding on our faith (though some are fairly convincing on scriptural grounds). The Catholic Encyclopedia online, in its article “Antichrist” says:

Hope that helps.

Peace to you,
jack

Oh I agree 100%.

And I do seriously believe that the UN or whatever it’s equivalent is at the time, will play a role.

 

[oriel36]

SCTA-1:

Ah yes, all the formulas used. What about D-day being the day of anti-christ? How, here we go: June 6th = 6th month 6th day.1944= 1+9 +4+4 =18. Now 6 goes into 18 three times, 666.No good? Years ago I was told it was Ronald Wilson Reagan= first name 6 letters middle name 6 letters last name 6 letters.It goes on and on.

Just another mediocre person following after more of the same.The mathematical facet of Revelation requires no external references,in case you do not understand this,you cannot attach the values to anything other than the patterns.You mentioned one - 18 as 6+6+6 but like everyone else yoiu fail to notice the structure which I hinted at.

I would’nt care if you never looked at Revelation again because mediocrity has wrongly chosen gematria as something that is applied to the ‘clues of revelation’.What do you think,that 666 is the only clue ??. The Johannine author wrote-

Here is a clue for one who has wisdom. The seven heads represent seven hills upon which the woman sits. They also represent seven kings:five have already fallen, one still lives, and the last has not yet come, 9 and when he comes he must remain only a short while.The beast 10 that existed once but exists no longer is an eighth king, but really belongs to the seven and is headed for destruction.The ten horns that you saw represent ten kings who have not yet been crowned; 11 they will receive royal authority along with the beast for one hour. usccb.org/nab/bible/revelation/revelation17.htm

Do you know why there is no 8th king ?.

The last sentence represents 108 which ties in with 432 as a geometric facet.You do not understand the value of the information I just give you but from my vantage point of that spectacular Johannine work,if I went through every single detail of the mathematical facet (at least as best as I can comprehend it) you would be no better nor worse for it.

You sound like a man who, in being unable to grasp the ebb and flow of the author’s vast and sprawling work, caves in just because everyone else is hung up on one clue - 666.

There are good and decent people here who have the capacity to come to a more gentle and productive understanding of Revelation without any undue influence from me.It is only a matter of becoming familiar with the intents and purposes of the author and enjoying what he accomplished.

 

[dennisknapp]

oriel36:

Just another mediocre person following after more of the same.The mathematical facet of Revelation requires no external references,in case you do not understand this,you cannot attach the values to anything other than the patterns.You mentioned one - 18 as 6+6+6 but like everyone else yoiu fail to notice the structure which I hinted at.

I would’nt care if you never looked at Revelation again because mediocrity has wrongly chosen gematria as something that is applied to the ‘clues of revelation’.What do you think,that 666 is the only clue ??. The Johannine author wrote-

Here is a clue for one who has wisdom. The seven heads represent seven hills upon which the woman sits. They also represent seven kings:five have already fallen, one still lives, and the last has not yet come, 9 and when he comes he must remain only a short while.The beast 10 that existed once but exists no longer is an eighth king, but really belongs to the seven and is headed for destruction.The ten horns that you saw represent ten kings who have not yet been crowned; 11 they will receive royal authority along with the beast for one hour. usccb.org/nab/bible/revelation/revelation17.htm

Do you know why there is no 8th king ?.

The last sentence represents 108 which ties in with 432 as a geometric facet.You do not understand the value of the information I just give you but from my vantage point of that spectacular Johannine work,if I went through every single detail of the mathematical facet (at least as best as I can comprehend it) you would be no better nor worse for it.

You sound like a man who, in being unable to grasp the ebb and flow of the author’s vast and sprawling work, caves in just because everyone else is hung up on one clue - 666.

There are good and decent people here who have the capacity to come to a more gentle and productive understanding of Revelation without any undue influence from me.It is only a matter of becoming familiar with the intents and purposes of the author and enjoying what he accomplished.

Please provide a Catholic source to back what you are saying? We would not want people to think this is what the Church actually teaches.

Peace

 

[Trelow]

Isn’t numerology a form of divination, and thusly condemned by the Church?

 

[vern_humphrey]

Trelow:

Isn’t numerology a form of divination, and thusly condemned by the Church?

Yes, it is. In the time of Christ, the use of numbers symbolically (“seventy times seven”) was common, and John uses the Pythagorean system to conceal some of his message from the wrong eyes.

But he DOESN’T use it for diviniation. And that IS condemned by the Church.

 

[scylla]

In 1978 there was a popular head of a church here in California, who predicted the 10 horns was going to be the European union. I believe he proposed that 9 countries were unified in a way and the next would be either Spain or Greece, then it would be ten and they would wage war against Russia.
He also said “if I understand scripture correctly…Jesus will come for his church sometime before 1981” Pg .35
Smith, Chuck. The End Times Costa Mesa: Marantha House Publishers, 1978
I think the European Union now consists of about 25 countries and I am pretty sure there wasn’t a rapture in 1981, so I think he doesn’t understand scripture correctly.

This just goes to show we shouldn’t waste too much time worrying, or speculating about this stuff. Worry about it to much you become like Henny Penny. (the chicken who thought the sky was falling), not really a good mindset to be in.
I really prefer the mindset of the Catholic Church. Pope John Paul was one who welcomed the Millenium, with joy and with a positive outlook for the future.
This was impressive to me, rather than just a bunch of doomsday predictions.

I believe it probably is Nero, and as an additional interpretation, anyone who deceives the masses.

 

[Trelow]

vern humphrey:

Yes, it is. In the time of Christ, the use of numbers symbolically (“seventy times seven”) was common, and John uses the Pythagorean system to conceal some of his message from the wrong eyes.

But he DOESN’T use it for diviniation. And that IS condemned by the Church.

Thanks.

 

[vern_humphrey]

scylla:

In 1978 there was a popular head of a church here in California, who predicted the 10 horns was going to be the European union. I believe he proposed that 9 countries were unified in a way and the next would be either Spain or Greece, then it would be ten and they would wage war against Russia.
He also said “if I understand scripture correctly…Jesus will come for his church sometime before 1981” Pg .35
Smith, Chuck. The End Times Costa Mesa: Marantha House Publishers, 1978
I think the European Union now consists of about 25 countries and I am pretty sure there wasn’t a rapture in 1981, so I think he doesn’t understand scripture correctly.

This just goes to show we shouldn’t waste too much time worrying, or speculating about this stuff. Worry about it to much you become like Henny Penny. (the chicken who thought the sky was falling), not really a good mindset to be in.
I really prefer the mindset of the Catholic Church. Pope John Paul was one who welcomed the Millenium, with joy and with a positive outlook for the future.
This was impressive to me, rather than just a bunch of doomsday predictions.

I believe it probably is Nero, and as an additional interpretation, anyone who deceives the masses.

Just follow Occam’s Razor – the simplest solution that takes all the evidence into account is the best.

And notice how easy it is to fall into all sorts of heresies and forbidden practices by playing these games, from Mandcheanism to Millenairiansm to Numerology and Divination.

 

[blainethepaine]

Hi Scylla (and all),

I can see why you would identify the Beast in Revelation with the Emperor Nero, indeed I personally see much evidence for this opinion. But it must be kept in mind that St. Paul’s “man of sin” is still at large (I hate being the naysayer in so many of these discussions, but this is an area of great interest to me and it seems there is a lot of misinformation out there).

The “man of sin” has always been identified with the great Antichrist to come. In this same vein, Nero, as I mentioned previously, is a “type” of Antichrist (and there has always been intense debate as to whether Nero really “fits the bill” as regards the first Beast. Many contend that the first Beast is the Roman empire, that which “was, and is not, and is to come” (Rev. 17: 8)).

Again, from the online Catholic Encyclopedia’s article “Antichrist”:

Nearly all commentators find Antichrist mentioned in the Apocalypse, but they do not agree as to the particular chapter of the Book in which the mention occurs. Some point to the “beast” of 11:7, other to the “red dragon” of Chapter 12, others again to the beast “having seven heads and ten horns” of 13, sqq., while many scholars identify Antichrist with the beast which had “two horns , like a lamb” and spoke “as a dragon” (13:11, sqq.), or with the scarlet-coloured beast “having seven heads and ten horns” (17), or, finally, with Satan “loosed out of his prison,” and seducing the nations (20:7, sqq.).

Anyhow, just wanted to throw that out there. It is always good to keep in mind that the Scriptures can have both an immediate, historical meaning and context, and a prophetic quality whereby the situations and persons described serve as warnings and “types” of events and persons to come at the end of time.

As an aside, if you think about what all this implies, it can be very frightening. To think that the atrocities of men like Nero, Domitian, Hitler, Stalin, etc. were but “types” and “faint images” of the Antichrist that will battle the Church in her “final trial”, we must be vigilant and ready to take up our crosses even to the point of gruesome martyrdom for our Lord. Indeed, the final persecution will be the fiercest even seen.

Peace to all,
jack