Exactly who was Mary?

[Tantum_ergo]

The ONLY way we can know God is through the gospel? I’m sorry, I cannot find the chapter and verse (those late Middle Ages additions to the Bible) which states that the ONLY way we can know God is through ‘the gospel’. Can you provide me with the relevant words that say EXACTLY this?
What of the rest of the Bible?
What of our own prayers and communications with God?
What of the ‘other’ tradition He gave us–oral Sacred Tradition?
What of the Holy Spirit?
What of His Church?
What of all the other people in our lives?
What of those who never ‘hear’ the gospel? Or those who hear false interpretations of it?

I’ll ask you too: Did Jesus write a book or found a Church?
Are we to be subordinate to a finite ‘written’ Word, even of God, when there is no ‘authority’ to help explain that word, and one can only assume that one is ‘interpreting’ correcting, and there are countless groups around who claim to be ‘the correct ones’. . .

or are we to be subordinate to Christ in HIS Church, His bride, by the guidance of the Spirit He sent us, through the teachers and their successors he gave us, to use as an important–but not the ONLY–tool the written word that, over the last 2000 years, has only been available to ‘Joe and Jane Average’ in the FIRST world for perhaps 150 years, and is STILL not widely available to Juan and Juanita Average in the Second World, even less so to Idi and Uhura, or Chin and Mulan Average, in the Third World?

 

[St_Gabriel]

It’s good to keep the commandment:

Honor thy father and mother

 

[Pophead]

The ONLY way we can know God is through the gospel?

Yes.

This reading from 1 Corinthians 15 verse 13 and 14 is what we Christians understand to be ‘the gospel’. (What Jesus did.)

’
For I delivered unto you first of all, which I also received: how that Christ died for our sins, according to the scriptures::

And that he was buried: and that he rose again according to the scriptures: ’

(This is from the official Roman Catholic Bible.)

Love,
Pophead.

 

[NotWorthy]

Yes, I thought you might. Veneration is not the issue, knowing God is, and the only way that we can know God is through the Gospel.

Sincerely,
Pophead.

You’re still not able to admit what you are implying? I just want to hear what I think you’re saying.

  	 				Originally Posted by **NotWorthy** 					[forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif](http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=2690565#post2690565)

Pophead, are you implying that if we venerate Mary, then we do not know God?

If it’s the truth, then why are you afraid to admit it?

 

[ricmat]

Yes.

This reading from 1 Corinthians 15 verse 13 and 14 is what we Christians understand to be ‘the gospel’. (What Jesus did.)

(This is from the official Roman Catholic Bible.)

Love,
Pophead.

So the only way to know God is through the Gospel.

What about acts 8:30?

 The Spirit said to Philip, "Go and join up with that chariot."

30
9 Philip ran up and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet and said, “Do you understand what you are reading?”
31
He replied, “How can I, unless someone instructs me?” So he invited Philip to get in and sit with him.

Looks to me like you need a magesterium to explain the Gospel, since it apparently doesn’t explain itself.

 

[Pophead]

It’s good to keep the commandment:

Honor thy father and mother

What Jesus did. (1 Corinthians 15:3,4) > was the complete fulfillment of the law and the prophets, on our behalf.

Sincerely,
Pophead.

 

[NotWorthy]

What Jesus did. (1 Corinthians 15:3,4) > was the complete fulfillment of the law and the prophets, on our behalf.

Sincerely,
Pophead.

So that Law is now fulfilled. We are no longer bound to the Ten Commandments?

That’s a new one on me.

 

[Pophead]

So the only way to know God is through the Gospel.

What about acts 8:30?

Certainly, the gospel is clearly revealed in the book of Isaiah.

Love,
Pophead.

 

[Pophead]

So that Law is now fulfilled. We are no longer bound to the Ten Commandments?

That’s a new one on me.

Actually you are right on target, there is only one new command and Jesus taught us the new command, upon which all the law and the prophets hang.

A new commandment I give unto you, that you love one another as I have loved you.

Love,
Pophead.

 

[rlg94086]

Actually you are right on target, there is only one new command and Jesus taught us the new command, upon which all the law and the prophets hang.

A new commandment I give unto you, that you love one another as I have loved you.

Love,
Pophead.

While this is actually off-topic (In your own thread! Shame on you Pophead! :tsktsk: ), I feel compelled to comment on your statement.

You are simplifying Christ’s teaching. Keeping the commandments is still taught by Jesus, but He teaches a deeper understanding and actually calls us to a “righteousness [which] exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees.” Therefore, we do have to keep the Commandments, but we also need to strive for a faith even deeper than that.

Pax,
Robert

scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2.htm

"Teacher, what must I do . . .?"
2052 “Teacher, what good deed must I do, to have eternal life?” To the young man who asked this question, Jesus answers first by invoking the necessity to recognize God as the “One there is who is good,” as the supreme Good and the source of all good. Then Jesus tells him: “If you would enter life, keep the commandments.” And he cites for his questioner the precepts that concern love of neighbor: “You shall not kill, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, Honor your father and mother.” Finally Jesus sums up these commandments positively: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."1

2053 To this first reply Jesus adds a second: "If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me."2 This reply does not do away with the first: following Jesus Christ involves keeping the Commandments. The Law has not been abolished,3 but rather man is invited to rediscover it in the person of his Master who is its perfect fulfillment. In the three synoptic Gospels, Jesus’ call to the rich young man to follow him, in the obedience of a disciple and in the observance of the Commandments, is joined to the call to poverty and chastity.4 The evangelical counsels are inseparable from the Commandments.

2054 Jesus acknowledged the Ten Commandments, but he also showed the power of the Spirit at work in their letter. He preached a "righteousness [which] exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees"5 as well as that of the Gentiles.6 He unfolded all the demands of the Commandments. "You have heard that it was said to the men of old, ‘You shall not kill.’ . . . But I say to you that every one who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment."7

2055 When someone asks him, "Which commandment in the Law is the greatest?"8 Jesus replies: "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the greatest and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the Law and the prophets."9 The Decalogue must be interpreted in light of this twofold yet single commandment of love, the fullness of the Law:
The commandments: “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not kill, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this sentence: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.10

 

[Pophead]

You are simplifying Christ’s teaching.

Actually, that was the long version.

Romans 8:2

‘For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.’

It seems we are now quite literally ‘off topic’

Goodnight,
Love,
Pophead.

 

[Tonks40]

Today in the Church we are commemorating the Nativity of the Blessed Virgin Mary. Why? As Catholics, we understand that without Mary, Christ would not have come to Earth. This signifies for us a new dawn in the revelation of God to us. It is also why the term “Morning Star” is given to her. She, in a sense, begins with what ends at the Cross, which is all part of God’s plan of salvation for us.

 

[NotWorthy]

Certainly, the gospel is clearly revealed in the book of Isaiah.

Love,
Pophead.

When read in the Light of Christ, it certainly is. That’s what Phillip help our good Eunuch do!

 

[NotWorthy]

Actually you are right on target, there is only one new command and Jesus taught us the new command, upon which all the law and the prophets hang.

A new commandment I give unto you, that you love one another as I have loved you.

Love,
Pophead.

So this revokes all the other commandments?

 

[rlg94086]

Actually, that was the long version.

Romans 8:2

‘For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.’

It seems we are now quite literally ‘off topic’

Goodnight,
Love,
Pophead.

Do you understand what the “law of sin and death” refers to? It certainly isn’t in reference to the keeping of the Commandments.

usccb.org/nab/bible/romans/romans8.htm#foot1

[1-13] After his warning in Romans 7 against the wrong route to fulfillment of the objective of holiness expressed in Romans 6:22, Paul points his addressees to the correct way. Through the redemptive work of Christ, Christians have been liberated from the terrible forces of sin and death. Holiness was impossible so long as the flesh (or our “old self”), that is, self-interested hostility toward God (Romans 8:7), frustrated the divine objectives expressed in the law. What is worse, sin used the law to break forth into all manner of lawlessness (Romans 8:8). All this is now changed. At the cross God broke the power of sin and pronounced sentence on it (Romans 8:3). Christians still retain the flesh, but it is alien to their new being, which is life in the spirit, namely the new self, governed by the holy Spirit. Under the direction of the holy Spirit Christians are able to fulfill the divine will that formerly found expression in the law (Romans 8:4). The same Spirit who enlivens Christians for holiness will also resurrect their bodies at the last day (Romans 8:11). Christian life is therefore the experience of a constant challenge to put to death the evil deeds of the body through life of the spirit (Romans 8:13).

IOW… the “law of sin and death” is in reference to the “wages of sin.” Christ gives us eternal life, but that doesn’t mean we don’t have to follow the Commandments. As the biblical references quoted in the Catechism show, Jesus counselled those who asked Him to “keep the Commandments.”

Pax,
Robert

 

[St_Gabriel]

What Jesus did. (1 Corinthians 15:3,4) > was the complete fulfillment of the law and the prophets, on our behalf.

Sincerely,
Pophead.

Luke 35 " and a sword will pierce even your own soul–to the end that thoughts from many hearts may be revealed."

 

[Benadam]

I’m just going to add a few tidbits

Luke 2:41- 50
Now his parents went to Jerusalem every year at the feast of the passover. And when he was twelve years old, they went up to Jerusalem after the custom of the feast. And when they had fulfilled the days, as they returned, the child Jesus tarried behind in Jerusalem; and Joseph and his mother knew not of it. But they, supposing him to have been in the company, went a day’s journey; and they sought him among their kinsfolk and acquaintance. And when they found him not, they turned back again to Jerusalem, seeking him. And it came to pass, that after three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the doctors, both hearing them, and asking them questions. And all that heard him were astonished at his understanding and answers. And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing.

And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father’s business? And they understood not the saying which he spake unto them.

**Here I believe Mary and Joseph too were the wiser. Jesus was innocent of the scandal His revelation would cause. He describes the commencement of His ministry as ‘His Father’s business.’ His words lack the foreboding sense that would characterize His description as an adult as ‘My Hour". I think Mary and Joseph knew how prophets were received and perhaps had fears about how and when Jesus would be revealed.These subtleties were either unknown or not considered as seriously by Jesus at twelve years old in my opinion. That could be the reason for the passages about Jesus’ growth in wisdom and submitting to His parent’s authority that followed. **
John 2:1-5 And the third day there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; and the mother of Jesus was there: And both Jesus was called, and his disciples, to the marriage. And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They have no wine. Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come. His mother saith unto the servants, Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it.

I** believe the proper sense of what Jesus said is “what has this to do with you and me” (pp). John writes ‘on the third day there was a wedding’ John points to the Ressurection. 'and Mary was there"**
Jesus states “it is not my hour” Notice that Mary is the focus here and Jesus and the diciples a kind of afterthought. rare in scriptures. Those worthy of the Resurrection are like angels not given in marriage Jesus taught. hence Jesus say’s " what has this to do with you and me?" Because He and His mother are worthy of the Resurrection.
The roles are reversed, now it is Mary who seems eager for Jesus’ to reveal Himself and Jesus who seems to be willing to wait. But just as Jesus did with Pilate when His ‘Hour’ had come He submitted to Authority that comes from above.
Notice the all encompassing quality of Mary’s influence inaugurating Jesus’ ministry at this event. It is Authority invested in Mary, the divine timing of the Father revealed to Mary, and the instructions to the faithfull from Mary that puts the ball in Jesus’ court so to speak.

Luke 11:27-28
And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked. But he said, **Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it. **

Jesus teaches here that heavenly bonds are above earthly bonds.

Joh 19:25 - 28

Now there stood by the cross of Jesus his mother, and his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalene. When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, **Woman, behold thy son! **Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home. After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the Scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.

The structure of heaven is the bonds between persons. The Father’s divine bond with His Son, The Son’s divine/human bond with His mother, Mary’s maternal bond with Jesus offers the most intimate bond possible between God and man and establishes the most intimate union shared by human and divine persons. Jesus gives Mary as Mother to the adopted children of God through John the ‘Beloved’( note the special bond between Jesus and John was an intricate part of the structure) and Mary offers her divinized maternal bond to all humanity. The bonds that unite heaven and earth are re-established within humanity here.

Isaiah 7:14
Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, **a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. **

**The greatest man born of woman is John the Baptist say’s Jesus. **
In Isaiah’s prophecy is the revelation that the messiah would be God.

Isaiah 9:6 - 7
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even forever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

This passage describes the messiah in terms attached to a royal family. As it pertains to Mary it establishes her as Queen of Heaven.

Mark 14:9
Verily I say unto you, Wheresoever this gospel shall be preached throughout the whole world, this also that **she hath done shall be spoken of for a memorial of her. **

I believe the sin attached to this woman has an archetypical quality. Her ‘many’ sins and her profound love for Jesus seem to express a kind of gratitude that someone who shares the responsibility for all sin may feel. That would be the kind of gratitude that everyone should feel but it seems to me that it would be only humanly possible from Adam and Eve.

 

[Spirithound]

This reading from 1 Corinthians 15 verse 13 and 14 is what we Christians understand to be ‘the gospel’. (What Jesus did.)

Certainly, the gospel is clearly revealed in the book of Isaiah.

lightbulb Ah! so you are using “gospel” in the general sense of Jesus’s whole message, rather than the specific books of the Bible. Well, how do you get to know the gospel then? Who gave you that?

Actually you are right on target, there is only one new command and Jesus taught us the new command, upon which all the law and the prophets hang.

A new commandment I give unto you, that you love one another as I have loved you.

But greater than this commandment is “Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and body”. And what does this entail? Obeying the commandments.
And how do we love one another? Through the commandments

 

[juliamajor]

Pophead, I too found God. It was our Blessed Mother Mary who lead me to Him and I thank her every day for taking me by the hand and leading me to the foot of the cross.

Watch out for Pophead - he just threw the hook out and now he’s beginning to reel you in

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

The truth will set you free. If Jesus taught that His Father draws us to him. I guess we wee mortals aught to take His word for it.

It is certainly true that we may be the bearers of glad tidings of great joy. It is the same message that was witnessed by those whose eye witness testimonies fill the New Testament, that Jesus Christ died for our sins, was buried and rose again on the third day. This is the message ‘Good News’ from our Creator, Abba Father.

Yep, only the Truth will set you free. Mary was at the foot of the Cross, as the first Christian, like we should all be.