Examining Orthodox Theology

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Still not comprehending the Eastern understanding of purgatory. What was the EO thinking on this pre schism? There is abundant documented evidence of this pre-schism by the Early Church Fathers.

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google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CFYQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fgratefulforpurgatory.blogspot.com%2F2010%2F11%2Fpope-st-leo-great-beauty-of-soul-in.html&ei=_5odUJ6-FYfH6wHYyoDwCw&usg=AFQjCNHIn1TsW9psuodtmjvKT0scpZD7aQ&sig2=zmItCVzkjsz_plHISX8bRA

What comes to mind is Leo I and his exegesis of Matthew- Everyone who will say a word against The Son of Man, it will be forgiven him, but whoever will speak against The Spirit of Holiness, it will not be forgiven to him, not in this world, neither in the world that is being prepared. (which I believe the Matthew verse is mentioned above yet not in connection with Leo the Great.)

Does this not also indicate a purification process after flesh?

Listen, saying “we don’t believe” does not answer the question why don’t you believe and where is the coinciding theology which indicates the “we don’t believe” aspect.

I’m trying to be charitable and understand here. “We don’t believe” doesn’t work for me nor for other inquiring minds.

We must agree there simply is not an empty void or abyss between flesh and Heaven. For the established Kingdom of God has already shown this to be not so, through the Celestial Court and the Communion of Saints. Principalities and Powers are not only to be understood in the negative or evil but also with the Kingdom of Heaven.

Is this representation of the EO wrong below?

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But that is the simple fact, the East does not have any theology on purgatory because there was never one. The West developed purgatory out of the belief in praying for the dead and what happens in that process. The East, in keeping with early Church tradition, prays for the dead and believes in the deliverance of those we pray for. But there are no specifics such as Purgatory. There never was, so there is nothing to compare, nothing to understand.
 
Still not comprehending the Eastern understanding of purgatory. What was the EO thinking on this pre schism? There is abundant documented evidence of this pre-schism by the Early Church Fathers.
You will find in Eastern Orthodoxy a diversity of beliefs regarding the intermediate state. Some Orthodox will use the word “purgatory,” though most do not. At the Council of Florence, Orthodox participants rejected (1) construal of purgatory as a specific location, i.e., a distinct third place place between Heaven and Hell, and (2) physical purgatorial fire. In 1772 the Synod of Constantinople declared the following:
We the godly, following the truth and turning away from such innovations, confess and accept two places for the souls of the dead, paradise and hell, for the righteous and sinners, as the holy Scripture teaches us. We do not accept a third place, a purgatory, by any means, since neither Scripture nor the holy Fathers have taught us any such thing. However, we believe these two places have many abodes …
None of the teachers of the Church have handed down or taught such a purgatory, but they all speak of one single place of punishment, hades, just as they teach about one luminous and bright place, paradise. But both the souls of the holy and the righteous go indisputably to paradise and those of the sinners go to hades, of whom the profane and those who have sinned unforgivably are punished forever and those who have offended forgivably and moderately hope to gain freedom through the unspeakable mercy of God. For on behalf of such souls, that is of the moderately and forgivably sinful, there are in the Church prayers, supplications, liturgies, as well as memorial services and almsgiving, that those souls may receive favour and comfort. Thus when the Church prays for the souls of those who are lying asleep, we hope there will be comfort for them from God, but not through fire and purgatory, but through divine love for mankind, whereby the infinite goodness of God is seen.
Contemporary Orthodoxy emphatically rejects all juridical interpretations of the intermediate state. We do not speak of a necessity to fulfill the temporal punishment of sin. There is only sanctification, purification, and theosis–the upward ascent into the fullness of the Trinitarian life of God. Paul Evdokimov presents a view of “purgatory” that I think is upheld by most, or at least many, Orthodox Christians:
Although the Orthodox may refer to what comes between death and the last judgement as purgatory, that is not a place, but an intermediate state of purification. This distinction alone marks the division between two different kinds of spirituality. St Anselm’s theology of redemption with its juridical notion of satisfaction has always been foreign to eastern thought, and likewise the penal and satisfactory aspect of the state of penitence (either in this life in the sacrament of confession or after death), and devotion to the Sacred Heart, which is similarly concerned with expiation. These entirely different notions of soteriology are clearly demonstrated in the theology of the Communion of Saints; in the West this concerns the Church and has provided it with the doctrine of merit–the merits of some contributing to the forgiveness of others and the good works of some being profitable to others. In the East, however, it concerns the Holy Spirit; it is the extension of the eucharistic communion, in which the Holy Spirit performs the particular work of uniting people and making that unity not merely an additional benefit, but something essential to the Body–the “naturally supernatural” expression of mutual and cosmic charity, holiness. We are companions of the saints, sanctorum socii, because we are in the society of the Holy Trinity. Christ is the mediator, the saints are intercessors and faithful co-operators, synergoi and fellow-worshippers, united with all for the ministry of salvation. Charity in heaven becomes more alive and the holy souls of the dead mingle with the congregation at the Liturgy. The saints in heaven join with the angels in the work of the living. The purpose of eastern ascesis is not expiation, but deifying spiritualization, and although the Greeks speak of purification through suffering, they never speak of penal satisfaction; even the term “purificatory expiation” is absolutely unheard of. While they may mention punishment, this is never allowed to have any propitiatory effect; there is no fire before the judgement and the ignis purgatorius and all Roman teaching about purgatory in its juridical form is formally condemned. But while eschewing penal satisfaction, the Orthodox teach purification after death, not in the sense of pain that purges, but as the working out of destiny through progressive purification and liberation, healing. The waiting between death and the Judgement is creative; the praying of the living, their offerings for the dead, the sacraments of the Church, take up and continue the work of the Lord’s salvation. The waiting has a pronounced communal and collegiate character; it is communion in the shared eschatological destiny, far from being reparation for a fault, it is the repairing of nature. The image often used is that as passing through customs, where we hand over to the demons what belongs to the and, thus freed of our burdens, go on our way with what belongs to the Lord. Eastern eschatology is always an integral part of the economy of the Mystery of God. Purgatory is not a subject of metaphysics or eschatological physiology, still less of any physical science of souls after death; the fate that awaits us between death and judgment is in no sense a place (souls are divested of their bodies, so neither space nor astronomical time applies to them) but a situation, a state. Torture or flames do not come into it, only a bringing to maturity by the stripping away of every impurity that weighs on the spirit. (Orthodoxy, pp. 333-334)
Sounds very much like the view of purgatory articulated in the 20th century by C. S. Lewis, Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, and Peter Kreeft, doesn’t it?
 
Sounds very much like the view of purgatory articulated in the 20th century by C. S. Lewis, Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, and Peter Kreeft, doesn’t it?
Thank you, Father! Indeed, it does!
 
You will find in Eastern Orthodoxy a diversity of beliefs regarding the intermediate state. Some Orthodox will use the word “purgatory,” though most do not. At the Council of Florence, Orthodox participants rejected (1) construal of purgatory as a specific location, i.e., a distinct third place place between Heaven and Hell, and (2) physical purgatorial fire. In 1772 the Synod of Constantinople declared the following:

Contemporary Orthodoxy emphatically rejects all juridical interpretations of the intermediate state. We do not speak of a necessity to fulfill the temporal punishment of sin. There is only sanctification, purification, and theosis–the upward ascent into the fullness of the Trinitarian life of God. Paul Evdokimov presents a view of “purgatory” that I think is upheld by most, or at least many, Orthodox Christians:

Sounds very much like the view of purgatory articulated in the 20th century by C. S. Lewis, Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, and Peter Kreeft, doesn’t it?
Yes, Thank You!
 
I don’t think so either. Anglican apologetic who I believe was a revert to his own faith.
On his mother’s side, yes. Yet he is reputed for taking a most “orthodox Anglican” view on matters. We might concede that such is not wholly inconsistent with either a Catholic or Orthodox view, depending on the subject.
 
No, both parents were Anglican Christians.
Factually, yes, although I understand from some biographical material I read on him some time ago his initial faith formation came more strongly from his mother’s side, or at least that is the impression I was left with after the study. I recall that his maternal grandfather was an Anglican priest.
 
A comparison of Paul Evdokimov’s statement on the intermediate state and the doctrinal statement on the GOARCH website suggests that Orthodox Christians presently disagree on the nature of the intermediate state and the finality of the particular judgment. I wonder if this is a difference between the Greek and Slavic traditions. I do not know enough to offer an opinion. But I do suggest that the spiritual practices of Orthodox Christians, i.e., the way we pray for the departed in our formal and informal prayers, support the interpretation of Evdokimov that the intermediate state is a spiritually creative time.

The real difference between the GOARCH statement and Evdokmov (and many other Orthodox Christians) is located on the question of the finality of the particular judgment. The GOARCH statement agrees with the magisterial teaching of the Catholic Church that the eschatological destiny of the individual is irreversibly set at the moment of death. Many Orthodox Christians, however, do not believe and teach this. In addition to Evdokimov, I cite Met Kallistos Ware, Met Hilarion Alfeyev, Fr Sergius Bulgakov. We appeal to the Kneeling Prayers that are offered on the Feast of Pentecost:
O Great Wisdom of the despairing! Overcomer of misfortunes - eminent helper, Who came and lit the way for those who sit in darkness and in the shadow of death; Thou art the Lord of everlasting glory, the beloved Son of the Most High Father, eternal Light of eternal Light, Thou Sun of truth! Hear Thou us who beseech thee, and lay to rest the souls of Thy servants, of those who have died heretofore, and those of our fathers and brothers and other kinsmen in flesh and all others through faith, for whom we now celebrate this memorial; for Thou hast power over all, and in Thy hands Thou holdest all the boundaries of the earth.
O Almighty Master, God of our fathers, Lord of mercy and Creator of all the races of men, the living and the dead, and of all nature, animate and inanimate, Who appeared and resided here on earth and again departed into the other world, Who settest the years for the living and appointest the time for the dead, Who bringest down to Hades and raisest to bliss; who bindest with weakness and loosest with power; Who arrangest the present as is meet and Who directest the future towards usefulness, Who consolest with the hope of resurrection those who feel the sting of death, Thou art the Master of all, our God and our Savior, O Hope of all the boundaries of the earth and of those who are away on the seas, O Thou who on this last and great day of salvation, the day of the Feast of Pentecost, hast revealed to us the mystery of the Holy Trinity, consubstantial and co-eternal, indivisible and immiscible, Who didst send down the Holy and life-giving Spirit in the form of tongues of fire on His holy Apostles, revealing them as proclaimers of our godfearing faith, making of them true confessors and preachers of the word of God, Who makest us worthy that our propitiatory prayers, of this all-perfect day of salvation, be acceptable for those who are imprisoned in Hades, and Who grantest those imprisoned therein a great hope in receiving from Thee consolation and relief of their confining grief.
Hear us, disconsolate and wretched, who beseech Thee, and give rest unto the souls who have formerly departed, and make them to repose in a resplendent place, a place of verdure and coolness, where there are no ills nor sorrow nor sighs. And array their souls in the tabernacles of the righteous, and make them worthy of peace and repose; for it is not the dead who praise Thee, O Lord, nor do those who are in Hades venture to offer unto Thee confession, but we, the living, do bless Thee and supplicate Thee, O Lord, and offer unto Thee prayers of purification and sacrifices for their souls’ sake.
Compare also the Akathist for the Departed.

If you are looking for a difference between Catholicism and Orthodoxy (or at least some expressions of Orthodoxy), you may want to discuss the question of the irreversible finality of the particular judgment.
 
Factually, yes, although I understand from some biographical material I read on him some time ago his initial faith formation came more strongly from his mother’s side
Yes, to some extent, though in Surprised by Joy he says that it wasn’t until he went to school and attended an Anglo-Catholic church that he was exposed to really serious Christianity.

Edwin
 
If you are looking for a difference between Catholicism and Orthodoxy (or at least some expressions of Orthodoxy), you may want to discuss the question of the irreversible finality of the particular judgment.
Agree’d

Would it be fair to say that purification after flesh is a reality? Then too the issue resides in the definition of purification. Simplified Catholicism of course is the CCC on this. Which I believe coincides with the East.

Slightly more in-depth is here and to your above quote.

google.com/url?q=http://www.catholictreasury.info/books/everlasting_life/ev11.php&sa=U&ei=nrNrTtzkK47egQf96ozdBQ&ved=0CBgQFjAB&usg=AFQjCNEqZgzEjj08uBFLX_Ytv7bsfMqIgA
 
It is important to note that East and West are not merely the same things said in a different way. It is not like one sentense said in English and the other in Chinese. You have to take into account the cultural background of the English or Americans into context of their culture and the nuances of the language. For example in the Philippines a formal pleasantry is that when someone walks into a room and another person is eating (someone you know, not a stranger, so you won’t see this in restaurants) the person eating invites the other person to share the meal. And the polite response is to say “no”. In Western culture is doesn’t make sense but that is how it is.

The same way with the faith. Theology is built up on a lot of things, culture, philosophy, language, etc. How the Eastern faith developed is completely different from how the West developed from its very core. The understanding of sin itself is different, and thus everything else follows from that. That is why in the West it was necessary to define the Immaculate Conception because of how the West understands sin. And in the East it doesn’t make sense, again because of how sin is understood. And that extends to everything else, salvation, why did Jesus become man, how did his death on the cross saved us, etc.
 
Gary, note how, according to Garrigou-Lagrange, that destiny of the deceased to definitively and irreversibly established at the moment of death because after death there is no longer the possibility of acquiring merit. I’m sure that Garrigou-Lagrange does not understand merit here in a simplistic sense of good works listed in a ledger; but however understood, there is no possibility for fundamental change of orientation: the damned are damned and the saved (including those in the purgatorial state) are saved.

The stream of Orthodoxy represented by Evdokimov refuses to think of matters along these lines. Consider, for example, the position of Met Hilarion Alfeyev:
“Is it at all possible that the fate of a person can be changed after his death? Is death that border beyond which some unchangeable static existence comes? Does the development of the human person not stop after death? It is impossible for one to actively repent in hell; it is impossible to rectify the evil deeds one committed by appropriate good works. It may, however, be possible for one to repent through a “change of heart,” a review of one’s values. One of the testimonies to this is the rich man of the Gospel. He realized the gravity of his situation as soon as [he] found himself in hell. Indeed, in his lifetime he was focused on earthly pursuits and forgot God, but once in hell he realized that God was his only hope for salvation. Besides, according to the teaching of the Orthodox Church, the fate of a person after death can be changed through the prayer of the church. Thus existence after death has its own dynamics. … On the basis of what ha been said above, it may be said that after death the development of the human person does not cease, for existence after death is not a transfer from a dynamic into a static being, but rather a continuation on a new level of that road which a person followed in his or her lifetime.” (Christ the Conqueror of Hell, pp. 216-217)
In his article “Orthodox Worship as a School of Theology,” Hilarion comments on the decision of the Coptic Church to remove from its liturgy prayers for those in Hell:
Several years ago I came across a short article in a journal of the Coptic Church where it stated that this Church had decided to remove prayers for those held in hell from its service books, since these prayers “contradict Orthodox teaching”. Puzzled by this article, I decided to ask a representative of the Coptic Church about the reasons for this move. Recently I had the possibility to do so, and a Coptic Metropolitan replied that the decision was made by his Synod because, according their official doctrine, no prayers can help those in hell. I told the metropolitan that in the liturgical practice of the Russian Orthodox Church and other local Orthodox Churches there are prayers for those held in hell, and that we believe in their saving power. This surprised the Metropolitan, and he promised to study this question in more detail.
How can we pray and hope for the salvation of all if change in personal orientation is impossible? If such change is impossible, then the liturgical practice of the Eastern Church is nonsensical.
 
Sounds like music Father. Hilarions comments on the decision of the Coptic Church are new to me but facinating.
 
Sounds like music Father. Hilarions comments on the decision of the Coptic Church are new to me but facinating.
I’m glad you enjoy the Eastern music, Gary; but I suspect that many of your fellow Catholics will insist that this Orthodox understanding of the possibility of post-mortem interior change is contrary to the authoritative teaching of the Latin Church, as witnessed by the passage you cite from Garrigou-Lagrange and the article on the particular judgment in the Catholic Encyclopedia. If there is an irreversible particular judgment,and if we knew that a particular person was damned (which we cannot know, of course, apart from special revelation), then it makes no sense to pray for the damned. Prayers are beneficial only for those who have been judged as saved and are in the process of purgation. At least that is how I understand Latin doctrine. Am I wrong?
 
I’m glad you enjoy the Eastern music, Gary; but I suspect that many of your fellow Catholics will insist that this Orthodox understanding of the possibility of post-mortem interior change is contrary to the authoritative teaching of the Latin Church, as witnessed by the passage you cite from Garrigou-Lagrange and the article on the particular judgment in the Catholic Encyclopedia. If there is an irreversible particular judgment,and if we knew that a particular person was damned (which we cannot know, of course, apart from special revelation), then it makes no sense to pray for the damned. Prayers are beneficial only for those who have been judged as saved and are in the process of purgation. At least that is how I understand Latin doctrine. Am I wrong?
The CCC is very explicit on this. Check out no.s 1021 and 1022 herebelow, under the subtitle- The Particular Judgment. Prayers benefit only those in Purgatory and on Earth. The Saints in Heaven don’t need them and the damned in Hell can’t be helped by them. As that CCC section says, the particular judgment is eternal. But we presume all the dead to be in Purgatory and so pray for them all.

I. THE PARTICULAR JUDGMENT
1021 Death puts an end to human life as the time open to either accepting or rejecting the divine grace manifested in Christ. 592 The New Testament speaks of judgment primarily in its aspect of the final encounter with Christ in his second coming, but also repeatedly affirms that each will be rewarded immediately after death in accordance with his works and faith. The parable of the poor man Lazarus and the words of Christ on the cross to the good thief, as well as other New Testament texts speak of a final destiny of the soul–a destiny which can be different for some and for others. 593

1022 Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven-through a purification 594 or immediately, 595 --or immediate and everlasting damnation. 596
At the evening of life, we shall be judged on our love.
 
It is true that Orthodox do not teach that there is any one single human person who is ‘head’ of the church. This is a teaching unique to Roman Catholicism and no other Apostolic church.

The Orthodox belief is that Christ is head of the church, and that is what is taught.

Of what Orthodox do teach, what is not true?
Amen to that you are 100% right.!!! We don’t have a “Man” as head of the church Because there is no Biblical Scripture that says that and unlike the Catholics they also incorporate other Believes that to me are not Biblical teachings.👍
 
We don’t have a “Man” as head of the church Because there is no Biblical Scripture that says that
That is not why the Orthodox do not believe in Papal supremacy.
and unlike the Catholics they also incorporate other Believes that to me are not Biblical teachings.
I would advise you to be hesitant to think that Holy Orthodoxy is going to side with Protestantism against many of these beliefs that you find problematic.
 
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