Examining Our Reasons

[MariaG]

Even if the participant doesn’t take the Protestant communion seriously and is just participating in fellowship with some Protestant friends? What if the Catholic devoutly went to Mass BEFORE the Protestant service and received the Eucharist?
I just don’t see what harm it could do if the Catholic receives the Eucharist the same day and only goes to the Protestant church and participates in their communion service with some Protestant friends.

One can have fellowship with Protestant friends, participate in the service and refrain from taking communion.

“I don’t see what harm it can do?”

The harm is that as Catholic Christians, although we are encouraged to think, understand and delve into things, we are also expected to submit to the authority of the Church that God placed over us. When we start trying to decide which parts we need to obey, and which ones aren’t harmful, you start done a slope where whole churches do things like ordaining openly praciticing homosexual bishops, because people have decided what parts of scripture they should follow and which ones should be updated into modern times.

I struggle for understanding of many Catholic teachings. In the end, sometimes I have to be content for awhile with, I disagree but that does not mean the Church is wrong. I know God will show me when I am ready to understand.

But in this case, I do “see” the reason why, or at least one of them. God has called all Christians to be one. Not just fluffy things, but united on ALL things, and united in one VISIBLE universal Catholic Church. If I were to choose to recieve communion at a Protestant service, I could give people the mistaken impression that we think the broken Christian unity that the Christian churches are in is okay.

I do not believe that the separated churches and separate beliefs that can contradict each other is what God meant by unity, and communion with that unity.

Do you?

There are points within this that I still have questions. Like, even if the apostolic succession was really broken, can’t God still choose to do a miraculous event because of the belief of those present, (ie, why do sacramental Protestants not have the Real Presence of Christ as they claim? I know, apostolic succession, but why can’t God still choose to do this anyway?)

But I do believe the harm in recieving communion in a Protestant Church for a Catholic is a promotion of a false sense of unity.

IF the Church is right, (and I believe they are even though I don’t yet agree), IF Protestants do not have the Real Presence of Christ despite their profession and claims, what damage could I personally be doing by recieving communion and in effect be validating their claims? Will someone not seek out the teachings of the Catholic church because, “we believe basically the same thing”? Will someone who was thinking about it not go because of my actions since if I recieve in their church, communion can’t be anything special in the Catholic Church despite the claims otherwise?

I can think of numerous scenarios where, by my actions, people may not seek out the teachings of the Catholic church.

Fellowship can be promoted without recieving. And the simple act of refraining can spark questions that may lead people to seeking out the Catholic church and true unity can be achieved, even if it is only one person at a time.

True unity will only come with true sacrifice.

Peace and God Bless,
Maria

 

[MariaG]

Glimmer,
You have inadvertently pointed out a major reason for having an authoritative Church - to faithfully interpret scripture. You do severe violence to the scripture to claim that Jesus meant that if you do not receive His body and blood you will not be resurrected. That is absolutely not true. The bible teaches clearly, in several places, that resurrection is universal. The righteous will come forth in the first resurrection, and the wicked in the second resurrection.

Where did you ever get such a crazy interpretation?

Paul

I am flabbergasted that you could make such a tactless statement! It strongly implies that I am a terrible idiot, and *you *do not know *anything *about me. We have never had a conversation before.

Either you did not read what I wrote closely enough or you brought some prejudicial mindset to what I wrote. I was following the logical conclusion that one would have to come to, assuming that if A=B and B=C, then A=C. I did not say any of these ideas was correct–just that one premise would lead to the other.

I hope that I am wrong in my reaction to your statement and if I am, please forgive me. But do know that I do not waste my time if I think someone is just out to assert their superiority by putting others down. All communication comes to a grinding halt at that point.

Wow, what an over-reaction. Sorry, I will not try to communicate with you any more.

Respectfully, Paul, while the first statement “violence to scripture” may in fact be true, you did not then offer an alternative interpretation and reasons why this interpretation is incorrect.

But you did then ask about where she got her “crazy” interpretation.

What exactly was she supposed to do? Agree with you? Agree that she does violence to the scripture? Or that she has a crazy interpretation? without even offering any alternative and Tradition or history as to why you are correct?

She did kindly ask for clarification, and did not in fact assume that your words were meant poorly, even though that is how she “heard” them.

Respectfully,
Maria

 

[dessert]

Scott Hahn is a former presbyterian minister and now Catholic and has written a book by the name The Lamb’s Supper - The Mass as Heaven on Earth and other books and I think another is Scripture is Sacramental

" Thank you, Lord, that I can give my mind to you every day. Thank you for the ways that you heal me, set me free, and raise me up into the kingdom of God. As you were obedient to the Father, teach me to follow his ways rather than my own. As I learn obedience, may my life be of service to my brothers and my sisters. Jesus, I trust in your life within me!" Word among us publ.
:clapping: :bible1:

 

[dessert]

Desert, I don’t think she was trying to convey that. Maybe she felt that the Protestant communion simply didn’t take away from the Catholic Eucharist.

But here’s a new spin. These people I know who have communion in the course of a common meal with other Christians–one day they gathered together with some people and started breaking bread at the meal. They began to examine the “One Bread” that we are in Christ. Each person would break off a chunk of bread and have an observation to make about the Christ. They felt they were having true spiritual communion with one another and with Christ. But I wondered…what if a Catholic had been present at such a meal and people had started doing that? Would it make the Catholic feel they are in a dangerous situation? It’s not the sort of thing that most people think about when they go to someone’s home…but many Protestants welcome all who believe in Jesus Christ as true believers and want to share.

maybe Mrs. Abott can explain herself and I will trry to be more civil thanks

 

[MariaG]

Maria,

I forget that you do refer to yourself as a “Charismatic Catholic” in your signature. You must, therefore, have a genuine idea of what I am talking about.

How many times have you heard something like, “Thus saith the Lord, He is going to stomp on all your enemies and make you rich”? :bounce: It gets old after you have been to hell and back. Thankfully, I was no longer part of the Charismatic scene when Benny Hinn made his statement that Adam could fly like a bird! :bigyikes:

My brother and I were on another forum when we ran across this lady who felt herself to be ‘prophetic’. She would post things like, “God is is going to translate us into the cosmic ozone that we might partake of His spiritual ether…” My brother was not very nice, but I had to laugh when he wrote, “Congratulations! That’s the most intelligible thing you’ve said to date.”

The problem with the Charismatic thing is that they fail to put the Cross ahead of the gifts. If they could do that and learn some discipline, these things would come out right.

Yes, there can be many abuses withing any Charasmatic community.

I am not sure what you mean by putting the Cross ahead of the gifts? Do you mean the over emphasis that some groups and churches can fall into? Pray for more gifts instead of just praying and resting in Him?

But I find that frequently, charasmatic churches can be as infantile and lacking in spiritual maturity as the Corinthians Paul chastized. People so often repeat the same mistakes over and over.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[mrs_abbott]

maybe Mrs. Abott can explain herself and I will trry to be more civil thanks

Glimmer hit the nail on the head when he interpretted what I was trying to convey (sorry, wording is not my strong point).
I didn’t see the harm in participating in a Protestant communion service if the individual was Catholic but ONLY if that Catholic went to Mass and devoutly participated by receiving the Eucharist in a state of grace THAT SAME DAY as the Protestant communion. That’s all.

 

[dessert]

Glimmer hit the nail on the head when he interpretted what I was trying to convey (sorry, wording is not my strong point).
I didn’t see the harm in participating in a Protestant communion service if the individual was Catholic but ONLY if that Catholic went to Mass and devoutly participated by receiving the Eucharist in a state of grace THAT SAME DAY as the Protestant communion. That’s all.

then you could tell people you had communion with “Dessert.”
I stole that joke. ha !
:dancing:

 

[glimmer]

I am not sure what you mean by putting the Cross ahead of the gifts? Do you mean the over emphasis that some groups and churches can fall into? Pray for more gifts instead of just praying and resting in Him?

There is lip service to, but little deep understanding and practical application of what it means to die to self. Have you ever seen couples with relationship problems who are sat down in a chair, prayed over and it is expected that God will magically fix everything? A lot of times the real problem is in the people–sometimes they need a work of God deep within so that they will stop sinning against one another. Or sometimes people will dream up an idea and ask God to make it happen. A lot of times it’s the mercy of God that we don’t get what we want. If we were always in control, we’d never let go and allow God to dream His *own *dreams into our lives.

 

[glimmer]

Scott Hahn is a former presbyterian minister and now Catholic and has written a book by the name The Lamb’s Supper - The Mass as Heaven on Earth and other books and I think another is Scripture is Sacramental

" Thank you, Lord, that I can give my mind to you every day. Thank you for the ways that you heal me, set me free, and raise me up into the kingdom of God. As you were obedient to the Father, teach me to follow his ways rather than my own. As I learn obedience, may my life be of service to my brothers and my sisters. Jesus, I trust in your life within me!" Word among us publ.
:clapping: :bible1:

He has his own section in our local bookstore. I noticed that he has books on all the favorite doctrinal hangups of Protestants. Maybe that is his ministry.

 

[MariaG]

There is lip service to, but little deep understanding and practical application of what it means to die to self. Have you ever seen couples with relationship problems who are sat down in a chair, prayed over and it is expected that God will magically fix everything? A lot of times the real problem is in the people–sometimes they need a work of God deep within so that they will stop sinning against one another. Or sometimes people will dream up an idea and ask God to make it happen. A lot of times it’s the mercy of God that we don’t get what we want. If we were always in control, we’d never let go and allow God to dream His *own *dreams into our lives.

Ah. I got it. Yes, this does tend to be a problem with some charasmatic churches/leaders, more so than other groups I think.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[glimmer]

Maria,

You mentioned off-thread that you had information on confession. Could you go ahead and post that? I’m reading up on it right now.

Thanks,
glimmer

 

[MariaG]

I believe in confession, but whether *only *or *always *to a priest? When one feels the peace of God in the heart over a privately confessed sin, what then? The re-inspection of old sins reminds me of opening up an old wound after it has started to heal nicely.

The Catholic Church does not believe that confession should always or only be to a priest.

But we do believe that Christ gave us this gift of for Reconcilliation and wishes for us to be the “normal” way of confession. In fact, we believe He instituted it as one of the first things He did after rising again. It IS true that for a Catholic Christian, perfect contrition would include the desire to go to confession as soon as possible since we believe that Christ desires us to place ourselves under the those who He left in authority over us. By doing so, we acknowledge God’s authority since we believe that Christ mandated this.

Truly, it is my most favorite Scripture. It is so jam packed full and the Mass reminds me of this Scripture every time.

:bible1: John 20:21 He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you. 22 When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. 23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained. 24 Now Thomas, one of the twelve, who is called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.

From Scripture Catholic

John 20:21 - before He grants them the authority to forgive sins, Jesus says to the apostles, “as the Father sent me, so I send you.” As Christ was sent by the Father to forgive sins, so Christ sends the apostles and their successors forgive sins.

John 20:22 - the Lord “breathes” on the apostles, and then gives them the power to forgive and retain sins. The only other moment in Scripture where God breathes on man is in Gen. 2:7, when the Lord “breathes” divine life into man. When this happens, a significant transformation takes place. John 20:23 - Jesus says, “If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven. If you retain the sins of any, they are retained.” In order for the apostles to exercise this gift of forgiving sins, the penitents must orally confess their sins to them because the apostles are not mind readers. The text makes this very clear.

I particularly love the symetry and and full circle of when Christ breathes on the Apostles. In Genesis, God breathes on man to infuse the soul. In John, God incarnate breathes on man to give us a healing gift for our soul.

In the Catholic Church we do believe that one can have perfect contrition over sins, privately confess them, and they are forgiven. But what if one is not sorry for their sins out of love for God but only fear of hell? This is an imperfect contrition. But God does not condemn us to hell for this, He gave us the gift of Confession in order to restore grace to our souls.

But it is important to remember what the teaching of the Church is about confession. Only God forgives the sin. We just believe that just as God chooses to show His power and Glory through people to heal them, He choose to give the apostles and their successors the authority to forgive sins. It is still God that is doing the forgiving.

ARTICLE 4
THE SACRAMENT OF PENANCE AND RECONCILIATION

Only God forgives sin
[1441](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/1441.htm’) Only God forgives sins.39 Since he is the Son of God, Jesus says of himself, “The Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins” and exercises this divine power: "Your sins are forgiven."40 Further, by virtue of his divine authority he gives this power to men to exercise in his name.41 [1442](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/1442.htm’) Christ has willed that in her prayer and life and action his whole Church should be the sign and instrument of the forgiveness and reconciliation that he acquired for us at the price of his blood. But he entrusted the exercise of the power of absolution to the apostolic ministry which he charged with the "ministry of reconciliation."42 The apostle is sent out “on behalf of Christ” with “God making his appeal” through him and pleading: "Be reconciled to God."43

The thing I love about the Catholic Church is the all of the Sacraments, including confession. We believe these sacraments are visible miracles of God. Visible signs of God reaching out to us.

None are just symbolic, but all are visible signs of God’s glory working in our lives.

I hope this helps a little.

Your sister in Christ,
Maria

 

[glimmer]

Maria,

Thanks so much for the wealth of information you have provided on this thread. Thanks also to the others who have contributed so much.

This will be my last post for now. I will probably keep my membership for a while and just check back from time to time. I wish you all the best.

Blessings to all,
glimmer