Example of a doctrine that originates from an oral Apostolic Tradition

[Blinky]

The bible doesn’t say that Matthew wrote the Gospel of Matthew, that Mark wrote the Gospel of Mark, that Luke wrote the Gospel of Luke, or that John wrote the Gospel of John. That information has been passed down by Tradition.

 

[mercygate]

Then scripture alone is sufficient, then mercygate

Not exactly. Material sufficiency means that a teaching may be deeply embedded in Scripture in such a way that it may not be apparent. Formal sufficiency means that you can pretty much read the book and figure it out for yourself. Clearly, Scripture is not formally sufficient for even some of the most basic precepts.

Doctrines or practices for which Scripture provides material, but not formal, sufficiency are: the Holy Trinity, as understood by the Church; infant baptism (we have early references from the fathers that “we have received this custom from the Apostles”); Purgatory; the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary.

 

[NotWorthy]

Since some of our brethren claim that Infant Baptism is not found in the Bible (although Catholics will argue that it is, I’m just using their premise for my proof), and the Church practiced this since the first century, you can argue that Infant Baptism is an Apostolic Tradition that has no roots in the Bible.

 

[Montalban]

Since some of our brethren claim that Infant Baptism is not found in the Bible (although Catholics will argue that it is, I’m just using their premise for my proof), and the Church practiced this since the first century, you can argue that Infant Baptism is an Apostolic Tradition that has no roots in the Bible.

I think it’s deemed to have been implied in Acts where a whole household were baptised. Though it’s not stated if there were kids, I think it’s assumed that there must have been

 

[NotWorthy]

I think it’s deemed to have been implied in Acts where a whole household were baptised. Though it’s not stated if there were kids, I think it’s assumed that there must have been

I agree. You agree. But there are many of other faiths that disagree. These are the same people that tend to ask the question what Apostolic Tradition is not Biblical (no accusations, here, Dano).

So I’m just trying to use their arguement against them.

It’s either Biblical… or it’s Non-Biblical Apostolic Tradition. Take your pick!

 

[Montalban]

I agree. You agree. But there are many of other faiths that disagree. These are the same people that tend to ask the question what Apostolic Tradition is not Biblical (no accusations, here, Dano).

So I’m just trying to use their arguement against them.

It’s either Biblical… or it’s Non-Biblical Apostolic Tradition. Take your pick!

The only one I can think of is Sunday worship, oh and Christmas Day we celebrate by tradition.

I always thought that Luther argued against Sabbatarians based on tradition.

By the way, Martin Luther hated Jews…Of the Jews he said…
…that everyone would gladly be rid of them.
-Martin Luther (On the Jews and Their Lies)

 

[Ron_Conte]

Can someone give me an example of a doctrine that originates from an oral Apostolic Tradition that the Bible is silent about and could you please provide proof that this doctrinal tradition is apostolic in origin.

Sacred infallible Tradition is not an oral tradition. If it were, then one could quote an infallible sentence or paragraph from such an oral tradition. If it were, then one could write down the oral tradition and we would have a second Bible (which is not possible).

Tradition is ‘the deeds wrought by God in the history of salvation’ (Dei Verbum, n. 2). The deeds of God themselves are Tradition itself.

The transmission of Tradition is accomplished with the spoken and written word, but moreover with the deeds of the faithful imitating Christ, and in the spiritual life of the Church. Now the spoken and written words of the faithful are not infallible, nor are their deeds, therefore such things are merely the means of transmission of Tradition, and not infallible Tradition itself.

Just as Scripture is transmitted by various editions of the Bible that can contain errors particular to that edition, so also it Tradition transmitted by individual Christians who can make mistakes, but in so far as the do imitate Christ, they help to transmit Tradition.

Ron

 

[Wolseley]

Can someone give me an example of a doctrine that originates from an oral Apostolic Tradition that the Bible is silent about and could you please provide proof that this doctrinal tradition is apostolic in origin.

I would urge you to locate The Faith of the Early Fathers by William Jurgens. I t comes in three volumes, but just the first one is sufficient for what you’re seeking.

Turn to the very back of the book, and look at the tables of doctrines that are listed, and read the references in the main body of the book.

 

[mercygate]

Sacred infallible Tradition is not an oral tradition. If it were, then one could quote an infallible sentence or paragraph from such an oral tradition. If it were, then one could write down the oral tradition and we would have a second Bible (which is not possible).

Tradition is ‘the deeds wrought by God in the history of salvation’ (Dei Verbum, n. 2). The deeds of God themselves are Tradition itself.

The transmission of Tradition is accomplished with the spoken and written word, but moreover with the deeds of the faithful imitating Christ, and in the spiritual life of the Church. Now the spoken and written words of the faithful are not infallible, nor are their deeds, therefore such things are merely the means of transmission of Tradition, and not infallible Tradition itself.

Just as Scripture is transmitted by various editions of the Bible that can contain errors particular to that edition, so also it Tradition transmitted by individual Christians who can make mistakes, but in so far as the do imitate Christ, they help to transmit Tradition.

Ron

Yay. This is an important point. When something has been handed down for 2000 years, it is unrealistic to think that at some point it did not get itself written down. Tradition, which we receive from the Apostolic deposit (infant baptism) did get written down very early. There is no secret body of knowledge that a few privileged sages whisper to one another in some secret dungeon of the Vatican . . . although somebody like Dan Brown will probablly try and write a book about it!

 

[VociMike]

Can someone give me an example of a doctrine that originates from an oral Apostolic Tradition that the Bible is silent about and could you please provide proof that this doctrinal tradition is apostolic in origin.

These “prove it” challenges are quite impossible to answer, and quite the antithesis of faith. They are the equivalent of Thomas’ insistence that he would not believe until he had placed his hand in Christ’s pierced side.

Can you prove that Jesus existed? That He was God? Ah, you will refer to the Bible. But can you prove the Bible is inspired? That gets tougher for Protestants, for one can only prove this by acknowledging the authority and inspiration of the Church. But if the Church could determine, with divine assistance, the canon of Scripture, then she could also remember, with divine assistance, the entire deposit of faith given to her.

Again, demands of “prove it” are quite out of place when dealing in matters of faith. Evidence can be offered, but proof is impossible, in the sense of compelling all who examine the evidence to agree.

 

[PepeRoni]

PepeRoni i am not saying that at all, i am asking for examples that are not in the bible, not denying them if they are not.

perhaps we’re all knowing the ultimate aim of what you’re getting at so we’re saving you time.

 

[mercygate]

These “prove it” challenges are quite impossible to answer, and quite the antithesis of faith. They are the equivalent of Thomas’ insistence that he would not believe until he had placed his hand in Christ’s pierced side.

Can you prove that Jesus existed? That He was God? Ah, you will refer to the Bible. But can you prove the Bible is inspired? That gets tougher for Protestants, for one can only prove this by acknowledging the authority and inspiration of the Church. But if the Church could determine, with divine assistance, the canon of Scripture, then she could also remember, with divine assistance, the entire deposit of faith given to her.

Again, demands of “prove it” are quite out of place when dealing in matters of faith. Evidence can be offered, but proof is impossible, in the sense of compelling all who examine the evidence to agree.

Exactly, Voci. But your point also applies to hard science. Using the “prove it” techniques of the scientific method, we accept as “proof” a certainty that contains .05 possibility of error. So even hard science does not claim to prove anything. It only narrows the margin of error.

 

[VociMike]

Exactly, Voci. But your point also applies to hard science. Using the “prove it” techniques of the scientific method, we accept as “proof” a certainty that contains .05 possibility of error. So even hard science does not claim to prove anything. It only narrows the margin of error.

I would note further that, given that only about 10% of the earth’s population is Protestant, Protestant Christianity is clearly not proven. By contrast, 1+1=2 is believed by 100% of the population (less a few kooks, I’m sure).

 

[marlo]

A good example is the “Assumption of the Holy Mother of God to Heaven” which can bee seen in all apostolic churches including the Orthodox churches, portrayed in the icons of the church.

The Catholic church formally announced this doctrine as a Dogma.

Can someone give me an example of a doctrine that originates from an oral Apostolic Tradition that the Bible is silent about and could you please provide proof that this doctrinal tradition is apostolic in origin.

 

[marlo]

Another good exmple, is the “Lord’s Prayer”

The oral tradition that we actually say the complete verse. This prayer dates back to apostolic origin, where some protestant churches do not recite this prayer as they believe it has a symbolic meaning or they don ot say the prayer in any of their services, like the Jehovah’s witnesses or the Iglesia ni Cristo.

Can someone give me an example of a doctrine that originates from an oral Apostolic Tradition that the Bible is silent about and could you please provide proof that this doctrinal tradition is apostolic in origin.

 

[marlo]

Another example of an Oral Tradition is the Eucharist

Only the Catholic church with the Apostolic churches like the Oriental and the Eastern Orthodox that claims apostolic succession, believes that the Bread and Wine becomes the actual “Flesh and Blood” of the Lord.

but this is debatable by protestant who uses the scripture for proof texting. but this is part of the Oral tradition of the church and we have been doing this for 2000 years already.

Can someone give me an example of a doctrine that originates from an oral Apostolic Tradition that the Bible is silent about and could you please provide proof that this doctrinal tradition is apostolic in origin.

 

[marlo]

Another apostolic tradition is the “Apostolic Succession”

A bishop may can only be made bishop by being ordained by another Bishop who was been ordained by another bishop… and so on and so on, that has a directly ordained by Bishop ordained by any of the Apostles.

Now, in the protestant churches, anybody can be a bishop by just claiming and using the bible for proof texting.

The Catholic church leader must be in direct succession from the Apostles themselves,

A very special about this, is that the Anglican churches changed the ordination rites that their bishops, invalidating their apostolic succession.

Can someone give me an example of a doctrine that originates from an oral Apostolic Tradition that the Bible is silent about and could you please provide proof that this doctrinal tradition is apostolic in origin.

 

[Jeanette_L]

Balance, yes i have looked at those links thank you, and yes Irrefutable questions that Roman Catholics and Orthodox can’t answer is one of the many anti catholic sites i have been asked to look at,however it is clear that they can be answered.in regards to what questions this forum have argued well, sola scriptura in wich i used many of my bible college notes to try to argue the point, and the authority of the Pope and Rome.It has become clear i have never been given the full story, only information that would lead me to believe i have the correct position.At this moment i feel as though every thing i stood upon has fallen down, it is a scary place.

Damo-

I have been where you are now, and it is a scary place. But don’t give up, or hide from what you are finding. I know it is heartbreaking when you see that you were not always led correctly by those you trusted to teach you the truth. But keep in mind, most of those you have depended on are themselves misled, they just don’t know it yet. And many are content to remain where they are comfortable, never longing to tie up all the loose ends that are obvious and all over the place.

Keep your nose to the plow, study, study, study and pray, pray, pray to the Holy Spirit for guidance and truth. God will not abandon you when your heart thirsts for truth. And the scariness will give way to peace, it really will. It may take some time, just lean on God and trust that He will not fail you!

Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for Righteousness (Truth) for they will be satisfied!

God Bless!

 

[marlo]

Another example of Oral Tradition

is the wiping of the Face of Jesus by Saint Veronica, as seen during Lent in the Station of the Cross and inside the church pictures of the station of the cross

this is actually not included in the bible, but the church teaches this a part of what happen during the crucifixion.

If I’m also correct, his first,secon and third fall is not included in the bible but originated through Oral tradition of the church.

Can someone give me an example of a doctrine that originates from an oral Apostolic Tradition that the Bible is silent about and could you please provide proof that this doctrinal tradition is apostolic in origin.

 

[marlo]

the death of the apostles, are part of the Oral doctrines of the church

St. Peter was crucified upside down in Rome
St. thomas died in India
St. John died of old age
St. Paul died in rome, together with St. Peter consecrated Rome,and Rome became the center of christianity.
Matthew suffered martyrdom in EthiopiaSt. Bartholomew died in a “X” shaped cross.

Can someone give me an example of a doctrine that originates from an oral Apostolic Tradition that the Bible is silent about and could you please provide proof that this doctrinal tradition is apostolic in origin.