Example of a doctrine that originates from an oral Apostolic Tradition

[JOE_OBERR]

So are you saying that the Apostles handed down an exact list of which books were in Scripture, and those who questioned some of those books (or named others as canonical) were either ignorant of or resistant to that Apostolic Tradition? Are you sure you want to go there, given what varied lists (around the edges) we have from the first few centuries?

Edwin

I’m only going where the Church has already been and is, namely, the Catechism of the CC states that Apostolic Tradition was the criterion used by the Church in the 390’s to determine canonicity. This is a teaching of the Church. It is not my opinion or guesswork on history.

No one knew in advance what the final decision of the Church would be vis a vis the full canons of the Old & New Testaments. St Augustine came close but even he didn’t have it right. Under the guidance of the Holy Spirit the Church, i.e., the Pope, said these certain books of the Old Test. & these certain books of the New Test. are inspired and constitute the canon.

No one else had the authority to make such a decision. This was one of the reasons Jesus founded a Church with a supreme authority to govern it. Without the pope’s authority people would still be arguing over what constitutes the canon of SS.

Joe

 

[Contarini]

I’m only going where the Church has already been and is, namely, the Catechism of the CC states that Apostolic Tradition was the criterion used by the Church in the 390’s to determine canonicity. This is a teaching of the Church. It is not my opinion or guesswork on history.

No one knew in advance what the final decision of the Church would be vis a vis the full canons of the Old & New Testaments.

This is illogical. If it was based on Apostolic Tradition, then obviously the people who were transmitting Apostolic Tradition orally knew what the Tradition was.

This is where the Catholic understanding of Tradition becomes extremely troubling–you’ve demonstrated the fatal problem quite well. You move seamlessly from the idea of an oral tradition handed down over the centuries to the idea of the Church simply deciding with the help of the Holy Spirit. These are completely different things. “Apostolic Tradition” has no real meaning in your usage, except as a euphemism for “whatever the Church decides.”

I repeat–if no one knew what the decision would be then it couldn’t be something that had been handed down since the time of the Apostles.

Saying that apostolicity was the criterion is, of course, something quite different in fact. A criterion is not a tradition. The Church did have the tradition that apostolicity equalled inspiration, but it clearly didn’t have some sort of definite list–or as you say people would have known in advance what the final decision would be.

Edwin

 

[jemfinch]

This is illogical. If it was based on Apostolic Tradition, then obviously the people who were transmitting Apostolic Tradition orally knew what the Tradition was.

I think you guys are talking past each other, and one or the other is misinterpreting the CCC.

When the CCC says that the Church used apostolic Tradition to discern the canon, it doesn’t mean that there was an oral tradition as to which books, exactly, were written by apostles. There might have been some of that (hence why some books were more easily called canonical than others), but in large part, the use of Apostolic Tradition was in knowing which books confirmed the faith once for all delivered to the saints and which (usually pseudoepigraphical) books denied that faith.

Saying that apostolicity was the criterion is, of course, something quite different in fact. A criterion is not a tradition. The Church did have the tradition that apostolicity equalled inspiration, but it clearly didn’t have some sort of definite list–or as you say people would have known in advance what the final decision would be.

This leads me to believe that you already understand what I said above, but it might be a useful clarification for others, so I’ll still post it

Jeremy