Exceptions to abortion

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shirleyz

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I am in a discussion with my daughter about abortion. It began when I read an article about the Obama administration considering ACLU’s request to mandate ‘emergency’ abortions at Catholic hospitals. My daughter’s response was “They wouldn’t have to give it to a woman who considered it an emergency. There ARE medical emergencies: How about an ectopic pregnancy … or the case of the nine year old who was raped by her step-father and pregnant with twins (yes, that is an emergency both physically and mentally for a child)? Or a woman who has a uterine infection at 3 months along that is threatening her life? “…our very core beliefs that all life is sacred.” (she’s quoting from my post) – including the mother’s.” I know the the teachings on direct and indirect abortions, but my question is about the 9 yr. old. If these little girls are raped and become pregnant, are there exceptions made by the Catholic church to end the pregnancy if it is decided she would never survive the pregnancy. I understand she could have a Caesarian, but what if her little body could not handle the pregnancy.
 
You and your daughter raise some interesting questions Shirleyz. Could you please add a link to your source? I found a few Catholic website blurbs, but nothing substantial. It seems to me this was a request by the ACLU to the Centers for Medicaid and Medicare and they gave a neutral stock answer. The whole thing came about because of the nun who approved the emergency abortion in Phoenix. Here is a link to the letter on the ACLU website:

secure.aclu.org/site/Advocacy?cmd=display&page=UserAction&id=2473

🙂
 
I am in a discussion with my daughter about abortion. It began when I read an article about the Obama administration considering ACLU’s request to mandate ‘emergency’ abortions at Catholic hospitals. My daughter’s response was “They wouldn’t have to give it to a woman who considered it an emergency. There ARE medical emergencies: How about an ectopic pregnancy … or the case of the nine year old who was raped by her step-father and pregnant with twins (yes, that is an emergency both physically and mentally for a child)? Or a woman who has a uterine infection at 3 months along that is threatening her life? “…our very core beliefs that all life is sacred.” (she’s quoting from my post) – including the mother’s.” I know the the teachings on direct and indirect abortions, but my question is about the 9 yr. old. If these little girls are raped and become pregnant, are there exceptions made by the Catholic church to end the pregnancy if it is decided she would never survive the pregnancy. I understand she could have a Caesarian, but what if her little body could not handle the pregnancy.
There are times when an evil act like abortion saves more lives than inaction: that is, the evil brings about good which can’t otherwise exist. Can we do it then? Well, Romans 3:8 says: " Why not say—as some slanderously claim that we say—‘Let us do evil that good may result’? Their condemnation is just! "

Now, Paul has to mean that the foreseen good result is bigger than the contemplated evil, or the question wouldn’t even make sense. Nobody (well, almost nobody) wants to take ten innocent lives to save one person. They want to take one innocent life to save ten people.

The example is of a train that’s run off the tracks, headed towards a group of kids. You’re next to an extremely obese person, and you’ve got good reason to think that if you push them in front of the train, you can save the kids (you personally are too tiny to even slow the train down, so throwing yourself would be pointless). Is throwing an innocent person in front of the train moral? Is that what we think Jesus would do?

And if we can’t kill an innocent bystander to save ten kids, why can we kill an innocent bystander (because that’s what the unborn child is, to the rape, after all) in order to save one? This is true **even if **the baby is likely to die anyways.

Catholic morality isn’t focused on the ends, but on the means. In this, it differs from most types of secular morality, which constantly ask us to do evil because it’s for a good cause. This sort of philosophy is dangerous: it’s the mentality of every dictatorship in history.

Now, the example of the ectopic pregnancy is different. Here, you are allowed to remove the falopian tubes, with the child in them, even though that’ll kill the child. The reason is that you’re not *intending *to kill the kid: if you can remove the child from her mother’s womb and save her life, you’ll do it. Your intention is simply to remove the fallopian tubes. This isn’t a direct abortion, in the sense that any abortive effect is accidental and unintentional (of course, even this is morally licit as long as you’re not trying to abort your kid). These two things seem really similar, but the first example relies on the death of the child as part of the solution, while in the second example, the death of the child is totally unintentional and pretty unavoidable.

Another example to illustrate what I mean: imagine a house is burning, and a mother wants to run in and get her child from the basement. You know that there’s literally **no way **that she can make it in and back - her running in will just get her killed. So you physically hold her back, knowing that it’ll break her heart but save her life. Obviously, you don’t want the kid to die: if someone else can get to the baby, praise God! So restraining the mom isn’t evil towards the kid, but sheer benevolence towards mom. Contrast that with the same mother, with the kid in her arms, hobbling towards the exit. The kid is holding on to her, and if she doesn’t let go, they’ll both die. You’re outside the house, but have a gun… can you kill the kid?
 
Most of what was said was correct - in the case of ectopic pregnancy they actually only take the part of the tube that the baby is in.

Now with the example of the nine year old this is more difficult. In cases like these it is possible to take that child as long as they can and deliver prematurely and save both. Dangerous but possible. Why would we kill one when we can save both? How does it help the healing of the mother to kill the child when she finds out as she grows up that there are premature babies living after delivering at 23 weeks? That is major guilt. And by the way to say that the body cannot handle due to age is not a good argument - after all if the body is far enough along in development that it made pregnancy possible than the body will take care of the baby except in rare cases.
 
**Abortion is never, never, never acceptable!

The Catholic Church teaches us in the Catechism (CCC);

"Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of every procured abortion. This teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable. Direct abortion, that is to say, abortion willed either as an end or a means, is gravely contrary to the moral law: " (CCC 2271)

Why do so many people want a lose - lose solution? Why not go for a win - win??

If the mother’s health is at risk, every measure needed to save the mother can be utilized & if as a consequence, the baby dies, then it is a horrible tragedy, but no one can ever directly abort the baby.

Many babies have survived, despite the Doctor’s recommendation of abortion! Andrea Bocelli is just one example. Watch this; youtube.com/watch?v=6QfKCGTfn3o

The rape scenario is even worse. A woman who is convinced to abort the innocent baby doesn’t solve the problem, she just doubles the pain & suffering. A rape victim is innocent, but once she cooperates in an abortion, she has made an irreversible decision that creates lifelong emotional suffering & guilt.

Why not let the beautiful, innocent baby live? Why not give the baby up for adoption?

Look at this beautiful lady’s story; rebeccakiessling.com/, Watch here; youtube.com/watch?v=6TL6aQVTOx8&feature=player_embedded
**
Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, Ora Pro Nobis Peccatoribus!

mark
 
Most of what was said was correct - in the case of ectopic pregnancy they actually only take the part of the tube that the baby is in.

Now with the example of the nine year old this is more difficult. In cases like these it is possible to take that child as long as they can and deliver prematurely and save both. Dangerous but possible. Why would we kill one when we can save both? How does it help the healing of the mother to kill the child when she finds out as she grows up that there are premature babies living after delivering at 23 weeks? That is major guilt. And by the way to say that the body cannot handle due to age is not a good argument - after all if the body is far enough along in development that it made pregnancy possible than the body will take care of the baby except in rare cases.
A good example was a CAF post last week re. a news item of a 10 year old girl in Spain giving birth to a healthy baby. It stated the family were Roma (Gypsies) & the girl’s mother was surprised at all the attention given.She considered 10 a typical age to marry.
 
If you guys are against abortions, you are insane. Sure, let’s **** up the community by having babies to parents who clearly can’t afford them. That just solves all of our problems.
 
If you guys are against abortions, you are insane. Sure, let’s **** up the community by having babies to parents who clearly can’t afford them. That just solves all of our problems.
so lets kill the child intested of giving him a life with some hope?

Is this your arguement to kill children?
 
so lets kill the child intested of giving him a life with some hope?

Is this your arguement to kill children?
Wow I missed Lamb of God’s post - but I think Hitler already tried it.
 
That subject ( of the 9-year old) has been discussed on several threads here before.

Here is a link to one of those threads forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=468578 … gives a few more opinions you can look at and one or two different perspectives.

I didn’t see Lamb of God’s post either , but if that’s what we’re to go on , it would appear that God messed up : Only the rich among us are supposed to have reproductive organs (which means I definitely never should have received mine).

I thought I read somewhere near the beginning that He’d said: “Be fruitful and multiply”.
 
Jonathan Swift had a creative solution, too, but Ireland passed on it.😉 Thankfully.
 
there is never at any time a medical emergency so dire that the one and only choice of response is the direct, intentional murder of another human being. period.
 
there is never at any time a medical emergency so dire that the one and only choice of response is the direct, intentional murder of another human being. period.
Be grateful you’ve never experienced one.

truthscout
 
I do not argue the “humanness” of the fetus. I argue the first assertion that there is absolutely no sufficient reason for the “murder” of a fetus, followed by the admission that there is, in fact, a sufficient reason for said “murder”.

truthscout
 
I do not argue the “humanness” of the fetus. I argue the first assertion that there is absolutely no sufficient reason for the “murder” of a fetus, followed by the admission that there is, in fact, a sufficient reason for said “murder”.

truthscout
In the case of an ectopic pregnancy - the principle of double effect takes effect. It is not that the “murder” of the fetus occurs - it is that the injured part of the fallopian tube is removed. The fact that the baby cannot live outside of the body is not murder it is the effect of the necessary surgical procedure.

In the case of those who choose to use Methotrexate to directly abort the baby it is direct causation of the baby’s death and therefore is not licit as it is the direct effect and takes God out of the equation.
 
There are times when an evil act like abortion saves more lives than inaction: that is, the evil brings about good which can’t otherwise exist. Can we do it then? Well, Romans 3:8 says: " Why not say—as some slanderously claim that we say—‘Let us do evil that good may result’? Their condemnation is just! "

Now, Paul has to mean that the foreseen good result is bigger than the contemplated evil, or the question wouldn’t even make sense. Nobody (well, almost nobody) wants to take ten innocent lives to save one person. They want to take one innocent life to save ten people.

The example is of a train that’s run off the tracks, headed towards a group of kids. You’re next to an extremely obese person, and you’ve got good reason to think that if you push them in front of the train, you can save the kids (you personally are too tiny to even slow the train down, so throwing yourself would be pointless). Is throwing an innocent person in front of the train moral? Is that what we think Jesus would do?

And if we can’t kill an innocent bystander to save ten kids, why can we kill an innocent bystander (because that’s what the unborn child is, to the rape, after all) in order to save one? This is true **even if **the baby is likely to die anyways.

Catholic morality isn’t focused on the ends, but on the means. In this, it differs from most types of secular morality, which constantly ask us to do evil because it’s for a good cause. This sort of philosophy is dangerous: it’s the mentality of every dictatorship in history.

Now, the example of the ectopic pregnancy is different. Here, you are allowed to remove the falopian tubes, with the child in them, even though that’ll kill the child. The reason is that you’re not *intending *to kill the kid: if you can remove the child from her mother’s womb and save her life, you’ll do it. Your intention is simply to remove the fallopian tubes. This isn’t a direct abortion, in the sense that any abortive effect is accidental and unintentional (of course, even this is morally licit as long as you’re not trying to abort your kid). These two things seem really similar, but the first example relies on the death of the child as part of the solution, while in the second example, the death of the child is totally unintentional and pretty unavoidable.

Another example to illustrate what I mean: imagine a house is burning, and a mother wants to run in and get her child from the basement. You know that there’s literally **no way **that she can make it in and back - her running in will just get her killed. So you physically hold her back, knowing that it’ll break her heart but save her life. Obviously, you don’t want the kid to die: if someone else can get to the baby, praise God! So restraining the mom isn’t evil towards the kid, but sheer benevolence towards mom. Contrast that with the same mother, with the kid in her arms, hobbling towards the exit. The kid is holding on to her, and if she doesn’t let go, they’ll both die. You’re outside the house, but have a gun… can you kill the kid?
Please be VERY careful when believing that any “evil” could ever lead to any “good”. Evil is 100% born of Satan and good is 100% born of God. Satan will NEVER lead us to God. Satan is looking for opportunities to MISlead us.
 
What about if you are out in the wild somewhere, and the baby’s head is too big…would that be a direct abortion, or do you just let them both die, or what? I’m not opposing the Church’s teachings–I just really have wondered about this. Is this the same scenario as the ectopic pregnancy? Because in this hypothetical, you would actually have to directly kill the child to save the mother. I know it’s an extreme example, but what would the Church say?
 
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