Excommunicated Saints

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The decree of excommunication from '88 “no longer has juridical effect”. So says Rome. Therefore all of the excommunications delivered at that time, if indeed they were valid, are null and void.

remnantnewspaper.com/Archives/2010-1031-mccall-fellay.htm
At the Angelus conference, Bishop Fellay also drew our attention to a related indication found in the wording of the Vatican decree nullifying the decree of SSPX excommunication. The final paragraphs of this decree reads:
On the basis of the powers expressly granted to me by the Holy Father Benedict XVI, by virtue of the present Decree I remit the penalty of excommunication latae sententiae incurred by Bishops Bernard Fellay, Bernard Tissier de Mallerais, Richard Williamson and Alfonso de Galarreta, and declared by this Congregation on July 1988. At the same time I declare that, as of today’s date, the Decree issued at that time no longer has juridical effect. (Emp. added)
Bishop Fellay pointed out what should have been obvious to us all. Notwithstanding the fact that the first sentence mentions only four of the six bishops subject to the former decree, the final sentence clearly states that the former decree “no longer has juridical effect.” That means the former decree ceases to legally exist.
If the decree claiming Archbishop Lefebvre and Bishop de Castro Mayer are excommunicated latae sententiae has no juridical effect, the declaration with respect to them has been withdrawn as well. To avoid this obvious conclusion, the language needed merely to say “with respect to these four bishops only,” the former decree has no juridical effect; or “except as regards Archbishop Lefebvre and Bishop de Castro Mayer” the former decree has no juridical effect.
I must admit that I felt rather stupid for not having noticed at the time what was clearly but subtly accomplished by this clever wording. The declared excommunication latae sententiae against Archbishop Lefebvre and his trusted ally in 1988 was removed without mentioning either of them by name. To do so would likely have elicited another episcopal rebellion.
 
Brother JR is very learned theologian. His proficiency on the subject trumps any personal opinion of yours, mine or anyone else on this board.
The degrees or personal qualification of the person making the argument does not prove in the slightest that what he is saying is correct. Besides, we have a respected Roman professor of Canon Law, Count Neri Caponi, who does not believe the '88 excommunication was valid.
He has already addressed that the pope did not accept the “case of necessity” defense, which, as the lawgiver of the Church, is his right.
It’s not that he didn’t “accept” it, Cardinal Gantin didn’t even acknowledge or address the relevant canons regarding necessity. The Cardinal is the one that issued the decree. The decree did not excommunicate anyone, it merely recognized that they had been automatically excommunicated. But if the bishops were covered by the necessity clause in Canon Law, no excommunication applied. Do you recognize this is now a moot point since these excommunications have been remitted?
The Archbishop was warned of the consequences if he proceeded with his actions - even warned in writing which is not necessary - and he still proceeded.
This is true, but wholly irrelevant to the legal question which revolves around the clear canonical exception to automatic penalties that apply when one sincerely believes he is acting out of necessity EVEN IF he is objectively wrong about it.
The excommunication imposed by Pope John Paul II was as real and as valid as any given before.
Regardless it has been remitted and is devoid of any juridical effect.
Whether you accept this or not is of no consequence but do you not find it telling that the bishops excommunicated with the Archbishop appealed to the Holy Father to have the excommunications lifted? They certainly believed the validity of Pope John Paul II’s actions. What do you know that they don’t?
Any cursory reading of the Society’s position will tell you that they never thought the original excoms were valid and still don’t. They asked for the removal of the excoms for the sole purpose so that the faithful would no longer be scared off from Society chapels due to the scarecrow of excommunication, as invalid as they were.
 
Honestly, you are just making this stuff up. As hard as it is to understand, Canon law does NOT apply to the pope. He is the lawgiver and his word on what is and isn’t is law. Someone here related that at the death of Pope John Paul II, Pope Benedict was going to canonize him without resorting to the process of canonization as required by law. As pope, he can do that. I wouldn’t say he is a dictator; I think autocrat would be a better word, since all authority and law comes through him. And part of that authority is that he can dispense with Canon law whenever he pleases.
scripturecatholic.com/feature-articles/Feature%20-%20Remnant%20The%20Inanity%20of%20Dr%20Moynihan%20Regarding%20the%20SSPX.pdf
As we have said, the pope is the supreme legislator of the Church, and he obviously disagreed with Archbishop Lefebvre’s “case of necessity.” Nevertheless, canon law regards what is in the mind of the offender, not the pope. Canon 1323.7 says that no one is liable to a penalty who, when violating a law or precept, “without negligence thought that one of the circumstances mentioned (i.e., necessity) existed…” In other words, if Archbishop Lefebvre (not the pope) “thought, through no personal fault,” that a “reason of necessity” existed to consecrate the four bishops, then he would not incur excommunication under canon 1382.
Can anyone credibly argue that Archbishop Lefebvre did not really think there was a “reason of necessity” or “grave inconvenience” which motivated his consecrations? I don’t think so. Putting aside the issues of “traditionalism,” I think any honest Catholic would conclude that the archbishop truly believed, “through no personal fault,” that he had a case of necessity or grave inconvenience.
But even if one wants to accuse the archbishop of being culpably erroneous in his assessments, canon 1324.1 says that the penalty is diminished for one who “thought in culpable error that one of the circumstances [necessity] was present” (°8). Under canon 1324.3, where the penalty is diminished, “the accused is not bound by a latae sententiae penalty.” Thus, even if Archbishop Lefebvre was culpably wrong in his assessments, canon 1324 would diminish his canonical penalty to something less than excommunication. Archbishop Lefebvre knew canon law. He
based his decision to consecrate the four bishops on this law providing for “reason of necessity” and “grave inconvenience.” If Catholics cannot rely upon canon law to govern their actions, then we have an absolute monarchy and not the Catholic Church.
As Brother JR has pointed out, an excommunication is a censure or penalty that is meant to bring a person back inside the Church. If a person dies excommunicated, then how can he come back into the Church? This doesn’t mean that the person is automatically sent to hell, it means he died outside of the Church. How can the Church canonize anyone who was outside of the Body of Christ at the time of their death? The Church doesn’t decide who goes to heaven or who goes to hell, but she does have the authority to declare that an individual is in heaven. There is more than enough evidence to show that the Archbishop’ excommunication was due to his disobedience against the pope himself and Canon law that forbade his actions. It is objective and there is no way that a future pope can just dismiss it.
A future pope did dismiss it, as I just posted. The decree ceases to have ANY juridical effect. It has been voided. In any case, even if this never happened a future pope is not bound by the canonical decisions of his predecessor and can reexamine the case and determine that a previous excommunication was invalid.
 
From the approved apparition of Our Lady of Good Success revealed the following to Mother Mariana de Jesus in the 17th century in Quito, Ecuador regarding the the Church crisis that would occur in the 20th century.
Just wanted to say I’m now going to buy the books on Mother Mariana de Jesus, sounds like an incredibly fascinating story, even more interesting then Fatima I dare say, though probably only because I’d never heard of it before 😃
 
If you look at the entire decree here: vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cbishops/documents/rc_con_cbishops_doc_20090121_remissione-scomunica_en.html you see in the first part clearly that the Pope is addressing only the four bishops:
His Holiness Benedict XVI in his paternal concern for the spiritual distress which the parties concerned have voiced as a result of the excommunication, and trusting in their commitment, expressed in the aforementioned letter, to spare no effort in exploring as yet unresolved questions through requisite discussions with the authorities of the Holy See in order to reach a prompt, full and satisfactory solution to the original problem has decided to reconsider the canonical situation of Bishops Bernard Fellay, Bernard Tissier de Mallerais, Richard Williamson and Alfonso de Galarreta, resulting from their episcopal consecration.
Now, as you point out the letter also says “At the same time I declare that, as of today’s date, the Decree issued at that time no longer has juridical effect.” The issue is one of interpretation.

Those with a love for the Archbishop or what he thought he was doing interpret this as seeing the Pope lifting the Archbishops excommunication. Honestly, from what I read here I cannot see that as a logical conclusion given the rest of the decree, although I can appreciate how you are viewing it.

The real arbitrator is of course Rome and from what I have seen Rome does not see it this way.

It would greatly help if we could look at the 1988 decree to see exactly what it said. Would anyone know of it on-line?
 
Doctor,

The actual words of the decree are all that legally matters. As the article I posted points out, it was a clever way for Rome to void the excommunications of ABL and Bishop DeMeyer without saynig so explicitly.

The fact remains that if you void the decree of ALL juridical effects, it is finished and over with as regards ALL who were censured under it.
 
The remnant is hardly the official voice of the Holy See. You appeal to them because they say what you want them to say.
What they say stands on its own merits. They make a case, an argument, based on the facts, the clear wording of the remitting decree. Any thoughts on this?
 
Any cursory reading of the Society’s position will tell you that they never thought the original excoms were valid and still don’t. They asked for the removal of the excoms for the sole purpose so that the faithful would no longer be scared off from Society chapels due to the scarecrow of excommunication, as invalid as they were.
Very curious that these four bishops would be so afraid of something that they didn’t even believe. If it doesn’t mean anything to them, then why the effort to be in full communion with the “collegial” Church that they criticize so much? Someone else said and it appears to be very true that the problem isn’t so much with the sspx but with the laity who support them.
 
The actual words of the decree are all that legally matters. As the article I posted points out, it was a clever way for Rome to void the excommunications of ABL and Bishop DeMeyer without saynig so explicitly.
The intention of the pope is what matters. Pope Benedict mentioned by name those for whom he was removing the excommunication. Besides, if what we are reading is an english translation then the matter of syntax is irrelevant. As the Doctor said, it is a matter of interpretation. I think we all know what Pope Benedict intended to do, even though the remnant somehow is able to get inside of his head.
The fact remains that if you void the decree of ALL juridical effects, it is finished and over with as regards ALL who were censured under it.
Look at it this way; suppose 20 men commit a crime, are caught, tried and convicted and sentenced to 50 years in prison. After 20 years, only 13 of those 20 men are still alive. The governor decides to pardon the remaining 13 men; does that men that he pardoned the 7 who had already died, too? No, it means he pardons those to whom the pardon can apply, those who are still alive. In the same way, Pope Benedict removed the excommunications of those who are still alive, since he cannot remove it against someone who has died because he cannot know if that person recanted their error.
 
Remitting and pardoning are two different things. With a pardon, the person did something wrong and you are at that moment deciding he will not be punished for it. The remitting of the excoms made them void of all juridical effect, meaning they have no more binding force or power. Since the entire decree was remitted with no qualification ALL effects from said decree cease to exist including the excoms of Bishop deCastro Meyer and ABL.
 
Remitting and pardoning are two different things. With a pardon, the person did something wrong and you are at that moment deciding he will not be punished for it. The remitting of the excoms made them void of all juridical effect, meaning they have no more binding force or power. Since the entire decree was remitted with no qualification ALL effects from said decree cease to exist including the excoms of Bishop deCastro Meyer and ABL.
Have it your way.
 
As for ABL, his excommunication was remitted and declared void of any juridical effects, thus his excommunication was lifted as was the other saints mentioned.
The Archbishop’s excommunication was never remitted. Remitted does not mean null and void. Remitted means lifted. It has never been lifted. Pope Benedict’s decree mentions only the four bishops who survived the Archbishop.
Nevertheless, those who argue ABL was legally excommunicated continually refuse to address the clear instructions in Canon Law that state if one is acting under what one believes to be a case of necessity, automatic penalties do not apply.
Those instructions were addressed in 1989 by Bl. Jon Paul II. He stated that he would not hear their appeal because he decided that he would not allow the canon to apply to them. As the Living Law of the Church and the Law Giver, a pope can actually do this. He can effectively tell you that a law is not meant for you and you’re stuck. You either step down or remain excommunicated. Church law is at the will and pleasure of the pope. It does not bind him. In other words, he does not have to follow it. He’s the only Catholic who is free from every law except moral law. When Pope John Paul refused to hear the appeal on the grounds that there were no grounds for an appeal, the law ceased to apply. That’s why Traditionalists were angry at him, because they quoted this law and he would not allow the law to speak.
The excommunication can later be remitted, as was done in the Archbishop’s case, therefore he could most certainly be canonized in the future.
Whoever told you this, misinformed you. This never happened. That’s why he cannot be canonized. This does not mean that he’s not in heaven. They’re two very different questions.

Can a person be in heaven who dies outisde of the Church? Yes.

Can a person be received back into the Church on his deathbed? Yes.

Was this the Archbishop’s case. No. He was not received back into the Church before he died. However, because he was dying, the priests of the SSPX were allowed to grant him absolution. In case of necessity, the Church spplies. A deathbed confession is certainly a necessity. Even a runaway pirest with five mistresses and 24 children can validly absolve you on your deathbed.
And the Church has said the excommunication was remitted. Rome has spoken, the matter is settled.
Where and when?
Pope’s must follow their own Canon Law at the time the act occurs. If they clearly do not, the act is not valid. The Pope can change Canon Law, but not retroactively. The Pope is not a dictator who rules by fiat. He follows his own Code of Canon Law which he himself approved.
No he does not have to do so. There have been many cases when popes have bypassed Canon Law. The law does not bind him. I’ll give you a simple example.

The canons in effect in 1228 said that you neede an investigation into a cause for a canonization. You needed the consent of the cardinals. You needed two miracles for a beatification and one miracle for a canonization. You could not begin the process for 50 years.

Pope Gregory IX canonized St. Francis in 18 months and St. Anthony in 11 months with no study, no beatification, no proven miracles. Whe questioned as to his hurry, he said that these men were his friends. Therefore, he knew them well enough to know of their sanctify and that he did not need proof of the alleged miracles that people claimed took place after their death, because he believed that they did happen.

Later, Pope Alexander IV, his nephew, would do the same with St. Clare.

Recently, Pope Benedict bypassed the five-year waiting period to begin the investigation on Pope John Paul and commanded that it begin less than a year after his death, even though Canon Law says that you have to wait five-years to begin. Pope John Paul waved Bl. Teresa of Calcutta’s waiting period as well.

Popes can add, delete, dispense with and ignore canon law at their own discretion.

**The sovereign pontiff is the most fruitful source of canon law; he can abrogate the laws made by his predecessors or by Ecumenical councils; he can legislate for the whole church or for a part thereof, a country or a given body of individuals; if he is morally bound to take advice and to follow the dictates of prudence, he is not legally obliged to obtain the consent of any other person or persons, or to observe any particular form; his power is limited only by Divine law, natural and positive, dogmatic and moral. Furthermore, he is, so to say, the living law, for he is considered as having all law in the treasury of his heart (“in scrinio pectoris”; Boniface VIII. c. i, “De Constit.” in VI). **

As St. Boniface handed down, the pope is not bound by canon law.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Vianney33

I believe that whoever gave you that information about Archbishop Lefebvre’s excommunication being lifted, misled you. Here is the actual decree.
The REMISSION OF EXCOMMUNICATION AGAINST LEFEBVRE BISHOPS
VATICAN CITY, 24 JAN 2009
"In a letter of 15 December 2008 addressed to Cardinal Dario Castrillon Hoyos,
president of the Pontifical Commission ‘Ecclesia Dei’, Bishop Bernard Fellay
once again requested - also in the name of the other three bishops consecrated
on 30 June 1988 - the removal of the excommunication ‘latae sententiae’ formally
pronounced by a decree of the prefect of this Congregation for Bishops on 1 July
1988. In that letter Bishop Fellay affirmed, among other things, that ‘we continue
firmly resolute in our desire to remain Catholics and to put all our strength at the
service of the Church of Our Lord Jesus Christ, which is the Roman Catholic
Church. We accept her teachings in a filial spirit. We firmly believe in the Primacy
of Peter and in its prerogatives, and for this reason the current situation causes
us much suffering’.
Notice that Bishop Fellay did not include the Archbishop in his request.
"His Holiness Benedict XVI - in his paternal compassion for the spiritual
discomfort expressed by the parties concerned, because of the
excommunication, and trusting in the commitment they expressed in the
aforesaid letter to spare no efforts in examining outstanding questions through
the requisite discussions with the authorities of the Holy See in order to reach a
prompt, full and satisfactory solution to the original problem - has decided to
reconsider the canonical position of Bishops Bernard Fellay, Bernard Tissier de
Mallerais, Richard Williamson
Notice that the pope does not include Archbishop Lefebvre in this consideration.
“On the basis of the powers expressly granted to me by the Holy Father
Benedict XVI, and by virtue of this decree, I remit the sentence of
excommunication ‘latae sententiae’ declared by this congregation on 1 July 1988
against Bishops Bernard Fellay, Bernard Tissier de Mallerais, Richard Williamson
and Alfonso de Galarreta. At the same time I declare that, as of today’s date, the
decree then issued is devoid of juridical effect”.
CPE/REMISSION EXCOMMUNICATION/SSPX
Notice the the Archbishop is not on this list. Also, notice that it says, “as of today”, meaning that excommunication was valid until that day.

Remission of Excommunication

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Dorothy Day is a candidate for sainthood; she incurred an automatic excommunication by having an abortion (or at least you would incur that today; I don’t know if it was the rule in her time). She repented, but of course you still have idiots out there who say Catholics would revere a woman who had an abortion.
Dorothy Day’s abortion was procured some years before her baptism in 1927. Since she was a non-Catholic at the time, the penalty of excommunication would not have been applicable.
 
We’d have to go back and look. I don’t think that the penalty of excommunication for abortion was in the Code of 1917.

Even if it had been, she was not a Catholic. You can’t excommunicate a non-Catholic. She became a Catholic later in life.

In addition, the fact that she had an abortion does not maker her ineligible. Look at St. Mary of the Desert. She was porn star of her time, even before they had film. St. Augustine had an illegitimate son. St. Margaret of Cortona was a working girl. St. Francis Xavier had his own skeletons and did St. Ignatius of Loyola. They didn’t know nor will we ever know if they ever fathered a child. The women in their lives disappeared. They could have been dads and no know it. Life is not always black and white.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Father,

Is an excommunication considered a matter of faith and morals?

If the answer is yes, than the Pope’s excommunication of someone could not be in error. Which means that the excommunication of St. Mary of the Cross couldn’t be chalked up to a misunderstanding. The same would go for St. Athanasius. If it’s a matter of faith and morals, it would seem that we must believe that both the excommunications and the later lifting of them were both infallible.

On the other hand, if an excommunication is not a matter of faith and morals, then the Pope could err with one.

Is “not excommunicated at death” an explicit requirement of canonization? It’s also interesting that the process of canonization has changed through history- today it requires the approval of the Pope, but at one time it was done by popular acclaim. So unless the “not excommunicated at death” requirement is a Tradition, with a capital T, that can’t change, it would be possible that while someone in that category could not be canonized TODAY, they could be canonized at a later date, IF the procedure for canonization changed.

Does that make sense?

Also, in following up on my own question, I discovered St. Hippolytus is not only a Saint, he was also an anti-pope. Interesting stuff.

Pax and God Bless.
 
Church law is at the will and pleasure of the pope. It does not bind him. In other words, he does not have to follow it. He’s the only Catholic who is free from every law except moral law.
Father, this comment would seem to mean that if canonization is not allowed for someone who died excommunicated by canon law, a Pope could go ahead and canonize someone anyway. So Archbishop Lefebvre could be canonized. If the restriction is one of canon law that is.

Pax and God Bless.
 
The Archbishop’s excommunication was never remitted. Remitted does not mean null and void. Remitted means lifted. It has never been lifted. Pope Benedict’s decree mentions only the four bishops who survived the Archbishop.
It declares the juridical effects of said '88 decree are void. '88 decree excommed ABL and ACM. Therefore ALL the excommunication emanating from that '88 decree are voided.
Those instructions were addressed in 1989 by Bl. Jon Paul II. He stated that he would not hear their appeal because he decided that he would not allow the canon to apply to them.
Please provide a link to this document. Thank you.
As the Living Law of the Church and the Law Giver, a pope can actually do this. He can effectively tell you that a law is not meant for you and you’re stuck. You either step down or remain excommunicated. Church law is at the will and pleasure of the pope. It does not bind him. In other words, he does not have to follow it. He’s the only Catholic who is free from every law except moral law.
If this were true the Pope would be an absolute monarch whose very whim is law. Please provide an authoritative source to support the proposition that a Pope is not bound to apply his own Canon Law as it exists at the time an act is perpetrated. The entire legal tradition of the world accepts the foundational principle that the laws in effect at the time apply and one cannot change the law after the fact and apply new law. JPII never excommunicated ABL. Cardinal Gantin issued a decree merely stating that he had been automatically excommunicated by his consecrating bishops without papal mandate. IF, in fact, ABL fell under a clear exception for sincerely acting out of state of necessity EVEN IF THE NECESSITY DID NOT OBJECTIVELY EXIST, then he could not, under Canon Law, receive an automatic excommunication.
When Pope John Paul refused to hear the appeal on the grounds that there were no grounds for an appeal, the law ceased to apply. That’s why Traditionalists were angry at him, because they quoted this law and he would not allow the law to speak.
Please cite this document where JPII refuses appeal.
Whoever told you this, misinformed you. This never happened. That’s why he cannot be canonized. This does not mean that he’s not in heaven. They’re two very different questions.
Please cite an authoritative Catholic source that states excommunications cannot be declared invalid by future popes and the previously excommunicated Saint canonized? We know that Athanasius was excommunicated and later became a saint so there is precedent. If a future pope examines the case of a past excommunication and decides that it was lacking in form and therefore null, he has that right to bind and loose. A pope is not bound by the decisions of his predecessors in matters not related to dogma.
Was this the Archbishop’s case. No. He was not received back into the Church before he died.
This is true but not relevant to the legal issue. The decree was declared void of all juridical effect and the decree stated ABL was excommunicated. Therefore the decision that ABL was excommunicated no longer exists, it has been removed.
However, because he was dying, the priests of the SSPX were allowed to grant him absolution. In case of necessity, the Church spplies.
The SSPX are allowed to validly hear confessions under supplied jurisdiction regardless due to common error of law and fact, among other canonical provisions.
A deathbed confession is certainly a necessity.
Unless a pope says it is not, correct? I’m not saying this to be sarcastic, I truly want to understand your position on this. For instance, if the pope decides he’s not going to apply canon law on that day, because he is not bound by it, he can say that the absolution of ABL was invalid because no necessity existed?
 
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