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Epistemes
Guest
Hello,
Why is abortion an excommunicable offense but not murder and physician assisted suicide?
Why is abortion an excommunicable offense but not murder and physician assisted suicide?
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StCsDavid
Guest
All three of these offenses are mortal sins that put the soul in peril of Hell. All three put one outside of communion with the Church. Because abortion is so heinous and so popular, (one abortion will have happened by the time you finish reading this) the Church wants to draw special attention to its gravity. It’s not saying that murder or physician assisted suicide are any less grave. I suppose if doctors started killing adults who were sick at the rate doctors kill healthy babies in the womb, the Church might respond in a similar way.
As a side note…this video worth sharing.
As a side note…this video worth sharing.
J
jemfinch
Guest
Technically, any offense is excommunicable, according to the discretion of the bishop, I believe.
Abortion, on the other hand, incurs a latae sententiae (by the act itself) excommunication, because it’s an extremely private sin that may never come to light: the Church hopes that the additional weight of the excommunication incurred would deter some from ever taking that course of action.
Jeremy
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Epistemes
Guest
Canon 1323 (I think that’s right) is seems to read like a provisional clause that states that the person is only truly automatically excommunicated when they are fully aware of that abortion is a grave matter. In other words, Canon 1323 reads with the legal distinction that separates mortal from venial sins. While it’s fully possible to answer why this is a grave matter, I still don’t know understand (so, therefore, how could any offending mother?) why it is an excommunicable offense. That a woman sins against herself and the unborn child is well-evident, but to be excommunicated?
Why aren’t embryonic stem cell researchers being excommunicated? It’s essentially the same crime, isn’t it? Destroying unborn human life…
It all just seems far too arbitrary and political which is hardly the righteous hand of Truth.
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Wowbagger
Guest
I have to run to lunch, so I don’t have time to do the research, but it’s always been my impression that murderers, embryo harvesters, and all their inhuman ilk are excommunicated latae sententiae. The Catechism calls special attention to the abortion excommunication because so many Catholics seem to think abortion is no big deal, but I would think that any murder–especially any murder of the unborn–would meet the criteria laid out for the automatic penalty.
I’ll consult canon law when I get a chance, though, since I’m talking out of my hat. Anyone care to correct me in the meantime?
I’ll consult canon law when I get a chance, though, since I’m talking out of my hat. Anyone care to correct me in the meantime?
J
jemfinch
Guest
For the canons you mentioned, it’s not important that the violator know why the offense is excommunicable, simply that it is.
There is no more innocent victim of murder than an unborn child, so it stands to reason that the penalty for killing an unborn child should exceed the penalty for killing others.
They may be, depending on whether the Church calls the death of fertilized ova an abortion.
I don’t see how so. Abortion is a widespread grave offense; killing fertilized ova for embryonic stem cell research, though grave, is certainly not widespread. Clearly a latae sententiae excommunication for the former would have a greater effect and impact than for the latter.
Jeremy
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Wowbagger
Guest
Oddly enough, the code of canon law is quite explicit: a latae sententiae excommunication is incurred for procuring an abortion (which I assume includes all homicides against the unborn, but perhaps not), but not for other acts of homicide, which are merely mortal sins that bar the sinner from receiving communion.
On the other hand, since mortal sin prevents you from receiving communion and the whole point of excommunication is that you can’t receive communion, it seems to me to be a distinction without an important difference, except insofar as excommunication is an appropriate additional measure to contain the separate danger of scandal.
Any other thoughts?
Oh, and link: vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P57.HTM
On the other hand, since mortal sin prevents you from receiving communion and the whole point of excommunication is that you can’t receive communion, it seems to me to be a distinction without an important difference, except insofar as excommunication is an appropriate additional measure to contain the separate danger of scandal.
Any other thoughts?
Oh, and link: vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P57.HTM
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Quarles47
Guest
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AHapka
Guest
My take on this is that it is possible to kill an adult and have it not be murder.
Self defense. The death penalty.
Some forms murder, while mortal sins, may not be a mortal sin in particular cases. For example, a person who has been abused for many years killing their abuser out of sheer desperation may not have had full consent of the will.
So even though we know it is a sin to murder, there are cases where the person murdered may have not been completely innocent themselves. For example, let’s say someone says he’s going to murder me. And I say I’m not going to let you live long enough to, and murder him myself.
Did I sin. Yes. Did he sin. Yes. Both parties in this case sinned. Also, let’s not forget that he could defend himself. Again, not excusing the sin, but an adult can take action that a fetus cannot.
The child could not 1) do anything to defend him/her self, 2) have committed any sin or taken any action to cause someone to commit the abortion, and 3) pose a real threat to anyone. It is because of these reasons that I believe abortion is more serious then murder, and consequently, needs more serious church censure to get the message across.
Self defense. The death penalty.
Some forms murder, while mortal sins, may not be a mortal sin in particular cases. For example, a person who has been abused for many years killing their abuser out of sheer desperation may not have had full consent of the will.
So even though we know it is a sin to murder, there are cases where the person murdered may have not been completely innocent themselves. For example, let’s say someone says he’s going to murder me. And I say I’m not going to let you live long enough to, and murder him myself.
Did I sin. Yes. Did he sin. Yes. Both parties in this case sinned. Also, let’s not forget that he could defend himself. Again, not excusing the sin, but an adult can take action that a fetus cannot.
The child could not 1) do anything to defend him/her self, 2) have committed any sin or taken any action to cause someone to commit the abortion, and 3) pose a real threat to anyone. It is because of these reasons that I believe abortion is more serious then murder, and consequently, needs more serious church censure to get the message across.
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icknish
Guest
Would you let a rabid dog sleep at your feet and think it would not bite you? The same applies to politicians like Nancy Pelosi, Barak Obama and many of our LAWMAKERS. They are pro abortion, about that there is no doubt. They are not making laws that are in line with Gods laws, they are making laws that are mans law. If a church is supposed to represent God here on Earth then it would be totally inapropriate for any church to accept as a member one that considers Gods laws as unacceptable. For example, Nancy Pelosi claims to be a Catholic, but she is not only in favor of abortion but continues to promote it. She therefore should be excommunicated as she does not have any intention of changing her commitment to her percieved self power and continuously rejects with fervor, Gods laws.
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Danuska
Guest
One thing that is different - if you commite murder, you will be persecuted and put in jail if proved guilty. With abortion - you can committe it many times and no court will bother - not sure if that is the explanation but well, sadly we can kill the defenseless legally
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mrmiiike
Guest
Why doesn’t our Pope, Cardinals, Arch Bishops, Bishops, Priests, Deacons, Nuns, Call Abortion murder, for it is taking the LIFE of a human being?
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MarjannaS
Guest
Hi. I wonder WHY we feel it is so necessary to define and categorize which sin is sin, and which is only ‘mistake’ or ‘error’ or some other pleasing euphemism? God has told us, Old Testament and New, that killing another person is a SIN. It should not happen, but it MAY be justified (in GOD’S EYES, NOT in our own) if it involves protecting the life of another, defending our families, or so on. He has NOT given us, in Old or in New Testament, the right to judge others in their sin. That is a responsibility He has kept for Himself, as only He knows the heart of the sinner. That said, shouldn’t it really be enough for us to know that murder, abortion, physician-assisted suicide, suicide, and other sins may be classified by the Church as “excommunicable”?
Can we take that word in its literal sense? Ex is ‘from’ and communicable is ‘the communion of the faithful’. It also has to do with Eucharist. In its literal sense, it means that the sinner who commits an ‘excommunicable sin’ is one who separates himself or herself FROM the church; i.e., from the communion of saints. It is the word for those who have made themselves unworthy – on the basis of sin – to receive the Eucharist, the Body and Blood of Christ, by their choice of a heinous crime against God and Mankind. Any such person cannot freely and worthily receive the Eucharist because to do so incurs ANOTHER mortal sin on top of the sin they already carry. To be able to receive the Eucharist worthily, such a person MUST receive the Sacrament of Reconciliation, and repent of their sins before they can communicate again.
It seems kind of simple to me, but then, I truly believe God intended for it to be simple. He is the one who told us that we must ‘become as these little ones’ to enter the Kingdom.
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mrspatin
Guest
I believe the sin is that we are taking upon ourselves to end a life that God has created - for no reason other than we are choosing to deny life. As for the reason why abortion is excommunicable, I didn’t realize that it was. I thought the sin of aborting an unborn life was forgiven just the same as any other - through confession, repenting, and due penance. It does seem as though if abortion is excommunicable, than so should be embryonic stem cell research and birth control.
Let us keep praying for an end to abortion and so forth.
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MarjannaS
Guest
Dear Danushka,
Though SIN separates us from God and from the Church and from one another, it is vital to remember that SIN is forgivable – Jesus says so! Even though we ‘excommunicate’ ourselves by committing grievous sins – murder, abortion, in-vitro fertilization, euthanasia, and every terrible thing possible, we are ONLY excommunicated for as long as we allow ourselves to be excommunicated. Unless a proscription has been published by our bishop or higher Church Authority (which requires a more public atonement) ALL WE NEED to do to become BACK in communion with God and His Church, is to make a firm purpose of amendment,(resolve NOT to continue in sin) and confess our sins to the priest in the confessional, and make a sincere contrition. Jesus, through the person of the priest-confessor, raises His hand in blessing and welcomes us back with those most beautiful words, “I absolve you of your sins in the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Go, and sin no more.”
What is important for us as Catholics and as Christians to know, is that ANY MORTAL SIN excommunicates us from God and the Church. Initially, when we commit serious (mortal) sin, we are taking ourselves away from God and the Church. Our sin then, is what STOPS US from being in communion with Christ and the church. Atoning for that sin allows us to be ‘taken back’ into His presence. We are welcomed back with as much joy as He declared for the single lost sheep whom He searched for while the 99 were safely in the meadow.
The inescapable TRUTH to life, birth, hardship, suffering, even sin and death, is that God, in all His Might, His Power, and His Excellence, LOVES US – poor, pitiable creatures who are so misled and misguided, so foolish and inept, simply because HE MADE US, and He wants us with Him, even to the point of forgiving us EVERY TIME we foolishly separate ourselves from Him through sin. How can we NOT respond to that love? How can we possibly allow ourselves to despair of His loving welcome if we are sincerely sorry for the wrongs we have committed? How can we prefer to remain in sin when He has such wonderful alternatives for us? After all, He promises eternal life with HIM, if we try to remain faithful in His care. He KNOWS (better than we do) that we are not perfect, because He IS perfect. But, there’s that hook: – He loves us anyway!
I hope this helps you. I send out a prayer for you with my Submit Key! God love you.
Though SIN separates us from God and from the Church and from one another, it is vital to remember that SIN is forgivable – Jesus says so! Even though we ‘excommunicate’ ourselves by committing grievous sins – murder, abortion, in-vitro fertilization, euthanasia, and every terrible thing possible, we are ONLY excommunicated for as long as we allow ourselves to be excommunicated. Unless a proscription has been published by our bishop or higher Church Authority (which requires a more public atonement) ALL WE NEED to do to become BACK in communion with God and His Church, is to make a firm purpose of amendment,(resolve NOT to continue in sin) and confess our sins to the priest in the confessional, and make a sincere contrition. Jesus, through the person of the priest-confessor, raises His hand in blessing and welcomes us back with those most beautiful words, “I absolve you of your sins in the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Go, and sin no more.”
What is important for us as Catholics and as Christians to know, is that ANY MORTAL SIN excommunicates us from God and the Church. Initially, when we commit serious (mortal) sin, we are taking ourselves away from God and the Church. Our sin then, is what STOPS US from being in communion with Christ and the church. Atoning for that sin allows us to be ‘taken back’ into His presence. We are welcomed back with as much joy as He declared for the single lost sheep whom He searched for while the 99 were safely in the meadow.
The inescapable TRUTH to life, birth, hardship, suffering, even sin and death, is that God, in all His Might, His Power, and His Excellence, LOVES US – poor, pitiable creatures who are so misled and misguided, so foolish and inept, simply because HE MADE US, and He wants us with Him, even to the point of forgiving us EVERY TIME we foolishly separate ourselves from Him through sin. How can we NOT respond to that love? How can we possibly allow ourselves to despair of His loving welcome if we are sincerely sorry for the wrongs we have committed? How can we prefer to remain in sin when He has such wonderful alternatives for us? After all, He promises eternal life with HIM, if we try to remain faithful in His care. He KNOWS (better than we do) that we are not perfect, because He IS perfect. But, there’s that hook: – He loves us anyway!
I hope this helps you. I send out a prayer for you with my Submit Key! God love you.
J
Jerry_Marino
Guest
i think it has to do with a continuous behavior, especially after being confronted by the church.
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MarjannaS
Guest
Hi, Jerry,
Certainly, piling wrong upon wrong, building a pile of guilt, is more ‘wrong’, – more ‘sinful’ than a single sin, if you will, but isn’t it up to Him Who is sinned-against to determine how much sin there actually is?
Please bear with me for a bit here. One of my own parables for today: Suppose you have a child who is a real handful. And, you’re poor – poor enough that every penny counts to keep a roof over your head and food on the table. In this parable, your child has been given a good moral code (foundational training in right and wrong) and you have taught this child as much as you can about character, honesty, consideration, respect for others, and all the good, ‘homely’ virtues. One day, this child decides to take money to buy something just for himself. So, he goes into the cookie jar, and takes a handful of the rent money to buy some wi-fi or something. YOU find it’s gone, but don’t say anything immediately, waiting to see if he’ll put it back. Then, figuring he ‘got away with it once, he’ll do it again’, he takes MORE money for something else. And this happens a number of times.
WHEN is it more serious? When it first happens? Or when you have let it go and can’t pay the rent? At what point does ‘wrongdoing’ becomes an issue of ‘quantity’?
(With apologies to Jesus, Who was MUCH better at parables than I am!)
The thing to remember is that, we HAVE been given a good Moral Code – one which includes respect for Life, as the elemental Gift from God, without which no other Gift would be necessary. Deciding ONCE to take that gift of life, and throw it back into the very teeth of God because WE HAVE DECIDED that He made a serious mistake in giving it to an unborn child, is a terrible sin. Does one have to commit the SAME sin over and over before it becomes wrong? I don’t think so.
Being “confronted by the Church” isn’t a requisite for wrong-doing. The Church knows and understands that the Rules (The Ten Commandments) are put into the hearts of its members, and in ANY society, individual responsibility is important. We don’t only obey traffic laws because there’s a cop sitting on the corner with a radar gun checking to make sure we obey them. We know those rules are there to protect us, like them or not.
I think we get into a real morass when we lose ourselves in semantics, and forget about ‘right and wrong’. Sadly, we become like the pharisees of Jesus’ time who knew all the rules, followed those they wanted to observe, and insisted only that others obey all of them. (Sounds like politicians, doesn’t it?)
Jerry, I’m glad you’re searching, and thinking, and praying for Light. I will offer my prayers for you too, to find the Light, and to know that Jesus – God, forgives sinners, whether they be falling for the first time, or have become mud-encrusted from wallowing in their sin. We must never forget how MUCH He loves us – even when we are in error and sin.
J
Jerry_Marino
Guest
let me make it clear where i stand on the issue of sin, all sin is serious, with that said what i think is being asked is why a person os expelled from the church?
if person remains unrepented and continues to sin then that person must be booted out:
read 1 cor 5
God bless
if person remains unrepented and continues to sin then that person must be booted out:
read 1 cor 5
God bless
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Milanomayor
Guest
I am Catholic specifically because of the rigorous Cannon Laws. you have to want to be Catholic and if you are not following the Pope you are out of communion with the Church. You are either Catholic or your are not !!! Christ is the same today as he was yesterday as he was over 2000 years ago ! A person may disagree with something but it must stay within you it is not rule by committee situation as far as the dogma of the Church goes.
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MarjannaS
Guest
Alleluia! You are so right! Unfortunately, too many Catholics, particularly in America, feel the Catholic Church should be a Democracy. It was never intended as anything else but as a Theocracy – with our God at its head, and His Rule passed on to us through the Pope, and to and through the bishops as the successors of the apostles. You CAN disagree all you want, but what I PERSONALLY have found works the best for me, is to take all my doubts, my disagreements, my outright temper tantrums, to the Blessed Sacrament. I give HIM my very best arguments, my (often) faulty reasoning, and my conviction that I’M the one who is right – NOT He. And then, when I am completely done giving him the “Gospel According To Me”, I give it over completely to Him, and tell Him that on one or two minor occasions, I may have been wrong in the past, and I will appreciate it if He will work in my heart to adjust my thought and my direction, and promise that I will not think of the matter again UNTIL such time He gives it back to me, – corrected, healed, and ready to share with the souls that He wants me to share it with.
It is truly amazing that this is exactly how it happens!!! When I take my doubts back, they are firm, healthy, whole, and TRUE convictions. Emotions, - anger, pride, fear, lust, or any else, are no longer a part of the equation. Only Truth remains, and the knowledge that the Truth I am seeing is a gift from my wondrous Father, to draw me closer to Him.
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