Excommunication for Abortion

[Rence]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rence
Do you mean murder, as in murdering your neighbor? mass murderers? violence or crimes that involve murder? I always thought those WERE grounds for excommunication?

Does the Church really not excommunicate for other types of murder? I always that all murders carried the same penalty of excommunication, for which the person needed to be absolved by a priest in order to be in good standing with the Church again. Someone, please tell me that murder in general carries the same penalty…

No, in general, murder does not result in excommunication.

The one exception is if you murder the Pope - that will get you automatically excommunicated. Gotta get your priorities straight!

WOW, that’s messed up…You can be excommunicated for an abortion, but you don’t get excommunicated for killing the 5-year-old down the street…

 

[choose_to_love]

@ Rence: It’s not messed up. Really, murder is in the Ten Commandments. Do you seriously think you can murder and not need to go to confession, confess, and do penance to receive the sacraments?

You are misunderstanding the purpose of excommunication, which is intended to call the sinner to repentence. Perhaps I have misunderstood the tone of your post and Just Lurking’s post?

 

[steve_b]

The fact that the Catholic Church does not impose the penalty of excommunication for killing your already born children.

Most reasonable people think it is just as bad as abortion; so why doesn’t the Catholic Church treat it as being equally as bad?

If you murder your already born child, society (i.e. the court system) has a choice. Possible death penalty for the parent where the death penalty is legal, or life in prison etc etc.

Abortion however, is legal in this country all the way up to natural birth. No penalty is given by society for this grave offense, because the state doesn’t view it as an offense… While the Church attaches automatic excommunication for this crime, the CCC also says in the same passage regarding excommunication

#2272

The Church does not thereby intend to restrict the scope of mercy. Rather, she makes clear the gravity of the crime committed, the irreparable harm done to the innocent who is put to death, as well as to the parents and the whole of society."

One can go to confession after an abortion, be absolved, and return to the Church and the sacraments…

OTOH, Can one go to confession, then be absolved by the state for murder of the already born child without serious penalty, even execution?

Also, If a crime is committed against a pregnant woman, such that the baby dies, but the mom lives, is the criminal charged with murder? Yes.

Our legal system is really screwy. Life is only worth something in the womb if the mom says so. Otherwise the baby has no status and no rights according to our system, except for what mom says.

 

[vetgirl]

The purpose of my previous post was to illustrate that the RC response to abortion has varied through time (the original poster posing the question of why abortion is treated differently to murder).

Rence:
Thank you for your response. You are correct that in 1588 Pope Sixtus made abortion and contraception an excommunicable offence, on par with homicide, in a bid to curb prostitution in Rome (as argued in Laurence H. Tribe (1992) Abortion: The Clash of Absolutes. New York: Norton, pp. 31-32.) Two years later this was revoked due to opposition from theologians by Pope Gregory XIV. (for anyone who wants dates )

Choose to love:
The distinction between early and late abortion was suggested in 11th century by Aquinas who argued that the fetus undergoes several stages of pre-human development, and it was only after ensoulment or humanization of the fetus that abortion constituted the deliberate killing of another human being.
It was not until 1869 that Pope Pius IX, in the document Apostolicace Sedis, abandoned the distinction between early and late abortion. (Laurence Trible suggests this may have been due to the promulgation of the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception in 1845 which implied a recognition of the human status of the embryo.)

I hope with expansion of the details, on which I based my previous post, you can see that I have not argued that abortion has ever not been viewed as wrong by the church simply that it has not always resulted in excommunication, the reasoning for which is the topic of the question posted.

 

[markomalley]

Hey,
Happy Sunday! There was something that crossed my mind recently upon which someone may be able to shed some light. I am aware that procurement of or involvement in abortion is grounds for automatic excommunication from the Church. Since abortion is the same thing as murder, why do other types of murder not carry the same penalty? This is a serious question. I’m not trying to be disrespectful.

Thanks and have a glorious Sunday,
FishHookOpenEye

Canon Law is sufficient reason in of itself.
Can. 1398 A person who procures a completed abortion incurs a latae sententiae excommunication.
Note that this does not say that the excommunication is reserved in any sense, so it can be lifted by the ordinary or by those to whom he delegates that authority.

Note, however, this;
Can. 1397 A person who commits a homicide or who kidnaps, detains, mutilates, or gravely wounds a person by force or fraud is to be punished with the privations and prohibitions mentioned in can. 1336 according to the gravity of the delict. Homicide against the persons mentioned in can. 1370, however, is to be punished by the penalties established there.

*Can. 1336 §1. In addition to other penalties which the law may have established, the following are expiatory penalties which can affect an offender either perpetually, for a prescribed time, or for an indeterminate time:*1/ a prohibition or an order concerning residence in a certain place or territory;
2/ privation of a power, office, function, right, privilege, faculty, favor, title, or insignia, even merely honorary;
*3/ a prohibition against exercising those things listed under n. 2, or a prohibition **against **exercising them in a certain place or outside a certain place; these prohibitions **are never under **pain of nullity;
*
4/ a penal transfer to another office;
5/ dismissal from the clerical state.
§2. Only those expiatory penalties listed in §1, n. 3 can be latae sententiae.
*
*
*Can. 1370 §1. A person who uses physical force against the Roman Pontiff incurs a latae sententiae excommunication reserved to the Apostolic See; if he is a cleric, another penalty, not excluding dismissal from the clerical state, can be added gravity of the delict. according to the *
§2. A person who does this against a bishop incurs a latae sententiae interdict and, if he is a cleric, also a latae sententiae suspension.
§3. A person who uses physical force against a cleric or religious out of contempt for the faith, the Church, ecclesiastical power, or the ministry is to be punished with a just penalty.
​

It seems to me that the penalties for other homicides are not exactly light, either. In fact, it seems that the penalty for a procured abortion can be kept very private and can be lifted rather easily. On the other hand, the penalties around other crimes against human life are always very very public.

Just something to consider…

 

[Rence]

@ Rence: It’s not messed up. Really, murder is in the Ten Commandments. Do you seriously think you can murder and not need to go to confession, confess, and do penance to receive the sacraments?

You are misunderstanding the purpose of excommunication, which is intended to call the sinner to repentence. Perhaps I have misunderstood the tone of your post and Just Lurking’s post?

No, you didn’t miss my tone: I’m appalled. I would think that both murder and abortion would result in excommunication, with the intention to call the sinner to repentence. But that’s just me.

But thank you for taking the time

 

[Rence]

The purpose of my previous post was to illustrate that the RC response to abortion has varied through time (the original poster posing the question of why abortion is treated differently to murder).

Rence:
Thank you for your response. You are correct that in 1588 Pope Sixtus made abortion and contraception an excommunicable offence, on par with homicide, in a bid to curb prostitution in Rome (as argued in Laurence H. Tribe (1992) Abortion: The Clash of Absolutes. New York: Norton, pp. 31-32.) Two years later this was revoked due to opposition from theologians by Pope Gregory XIV. (for anyone who wants dates )

Choose to love:
The distinction between early and late abortion was suggested in 11th century by Aquinas who argued that the fetus undergoes several stages of pre-human development, and it was only after ensoulment or humanization of the fetus that abortion constituted the deliberate killing of another human being.
It was not until 1869 that Pope Pius IX, in the document Apostolicace Sedis, abandoned the distinction between early and late abortion. (Laurence Trible suggests this may have been due to the promulgation of the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception in 1845 which implied a recognition of the human status of the embryo.)

I hope with expansion of the details, on which I based my previous post, you can see that I have not argued that abortion has ever not been viewed as wrong by the church simply that it has not always resulted in excommunication, the reasoning for which is the topic of the question posted.

I see, I understand what you’re saying. l get’cha I tried to convey that to someone on another thread and they misunderstood me too. I guess I made the same mistake with your post, sorry about that. Thanks for clarifying.

 

[momor]

Also, If a crime is committed against a pregnant woman, such that the baby dies, but the mom lives, is the criminal charged with murder? Yes.

Our legal system is really screwy. Life is only worth something in the womb if the mom says so. Otherwise the baby has no status and no rights according to our system, except for what mom says.

You sure got that right! There was a case here locally where a woman cut the 8 month old baby from a womans womb resulting in the death of the mother. The baby also died. She has been charged with the death of the mother but not the baby. The law says it’s not a baby till it’s born and takes a breath.

 

[vetgirl]

edit - Aquinas was around in the 13th Century not 11th (sorry typo)