Excommunication for Pro-choice believers

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Willy Jose
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You appear to be reasonable, so let the dialogue continue, as time permits.

 1. My reading of history and persecution goes like this - briefly. Once Christianity became the official religion of the Roman Empire, it began to do what had been done to it. It did not tolerate competing faiths, although I would suggest that it may have begun to borrow from other faiths.

  Let me wander away from our topic for just a moment. Yesterday I watched a feature on Loreto, Italy, on EWTN. (I had heard the Lords expound on the same theme some time ago.) In a nutshell, Loreto claims to have a house where Mary and the Holy Family had lived in Nazareth, etc. How did it get there? Angels were seen by shepherds carrying it across the Adriatic several hundred years ago. They saw Mary and the Baby Jesus on the roof! This shrine attracts many pilgrims every year, and Pope John Paul II seemed to validate this 'miracle' by visiting it. Etc. Now, are educated people of the 21st century supposed to believe such stories? Give me a break! That is a basic problem which traditional Catholics either embraces or ignore. To successfully navigate the world of today, Catholicism needs to shed many of these pious myths that alienate millions.  

  Okay, back to persecution. There was much on both sides, true. I would suggest that Catholicism probably did more of it, but that is a pointless debate. If Luther hadn't been hounded as he was when he tried to reform the church things may have been very different. The Council of Trent actually recognized some of his charges as valid and made reforms. Vatican II even encouraged mass in the vernacular which he had asked for 500 years earlier. But, alas, I'm not a fan of Luther. I have trouble accepting any religious leader as infallible, including the Pope. As for that, have you ever read Abelard's *Sic et **Non?* Centuries ago he (a good Catholic) was arguing that the church's position on basic doctrines and morals had changed.

By the way, I visited Spain under Franco when Protestants there were denied religious freedom. Remember, too, that it was only 150 years ago that Pius IX condemned democracy and separation of Church and State in his notorious 'Syllabus of Errors'. Have you read it? What do you think of it? Fortunately, modern Catholicism changed its policy and now champions freedom of religion. But bear in mind the prejudices against Catholicism developed during those early years when Catholicism was adamant in insisting that it had special and exclusive rights and that it alone was the one true church (something it still maintains, of course).

 2. As for Peter, as you know Protestants provide a variety of arguments against the idea that Peter was the first Pope. I would need to refresh my memory on those but they obviously convince millions of Christians. For example, they interpret the words "and on this rock I will build my church" not as referring to Peter but upon the confession of faith which had just declared.

 3. I will not dismiss atrocities in the Bible and blaming them on God as my inability to understand God's purposes, etc. That always seems to be the reply when the horrors of the Old Testament come up. "God's ways are not our ways" - and such. I refuse to believe for a micro-second that Christ, God incarnate, would order such annihiliation of innocent people. Consider even the flood in the time of Noah. God saved eight people, but how about the many others, among them children and infants, some certainly still in the womb, who must have been drowned? Talk about means and ends! Do you actually believe that a just and merciful God would deliberately do that?! I could not worship such a god. He would be more like Hitler than the God of love! But many Christians (Protestants and Catholics alike) continue to declare all these atrocity tales as the written Word of God! I wince everytime I read how joyfully scripture quotes the ancient Israelites: "Saul had killed his thousands, but David has killed his ten thousands!" I believe instead the sermon on the mount, when Christ praised peacemakers and even called upon us to 'love our enemies'. It would be interesting to see what would happen if Christianity of that sort were ever seriously tried.

 4. Back to our thread - abortion. I am against abortion, just like I am against capital punishment and war etc. But there may be situations in which that is a bad alternative but the wisest one available. In such rare instances, I would leave the decision up to the mother and the medical world and not make them into criminals or wicked, evil sinners. That poor mother has enough misery and sorrow to weigh her down without having the church add to it. I've always been uncomfortable that an all-male hierarchy can be so rigid and harsh on this very complex issue. I feel even more annoyed when this same all-male, celibate hierarchy is so self-righteous and unbending when it comes to the question of birth control. That is a decision for conscientious and loving married couples to make.

 God bless people of every creed, color and country, and may religion serve as a bridge instead of a barrier. God bless especially those women with 'problem pregnancies' that the Lord may sustain and guide them through this crisis in their lives.
 
Thank you Elizabeth. I talked to two priests at length about my feelings about abortion, especially in difficult cases. They both told me that I was not sinning (nor was I not in communion with the Church) for disagreeing with the Church’s position, or by continuing to sort it out. I don’t have to agree with the Church’s rules, but I do have to follow them. But they both said that it would be sinful if I was actually doing something to support abortion (such as having an abortion, participating in an abortion, helping someone to get an abortion, counseling someone to get an abortion, etc.) Which I don’t do. So being pro-choice in and of itself is not enough to get me in trouble. So… yes one can be pro-choice and be Catholic.
Thank you for the above post. I suspect that many Catholics (perhaps even the majority) have the same feelings. I also suspect that there a few single issue voters who might take issue with what your two priests communicated - especially since it challenges their bumper sticker mentality.
 
Roy5,

My, those are wide-ranging topics. But again, my two centavos.

1.When we read the history of Christianity, we must separate the wheat from the chaff so to speak. Again what I wanted to point out coming off from my previous post was that Catholics and other Christians have committed acts that were inimical to the faith. Christians persecuting other Christians was a departure from the faith, rather than an authentic hallmark representation of it. Christ’s followers operated (and continue to operate) under an imperfect world in which they may have acted against the authentic Christian way of life. In short, it us who made mistakes, but the Holy Spirit always guides us to the Truth.

With these in mind, we should distinguish infallible teachings (as we Catholics call it) that we hold as true throughout the times (like the teaching on abortion, but more on that later). Not everything you watch on EWTN for example, represent authentic, beyond reproach, infallible teaching. Infallibility is a negative charism, meaning that the Holy Spirit prevents the Pope from erring when he speaks ex-cathedra on faith and morals, the same goes for a universal unity of Bishops when they speak in union with the Pope. Even Saints and the Doctors of the Church have made errors in theology (even Popes may make errors in judgment, but never when he speaks ex-cathedra), although it is certain that everything they said contributed to what we call ‘the development of Doctrine’. Basically, what this means is that the essential truth has been revealed for all once, and it is only the elements of the essential truth that gets illuminated over the course of time through the leadings of the Holy Spirit.
  1. The primacy of Peter is a core contention between Catholics and Protestants, but we could go on and on on this subject. Let me just add that it is only Catholicism that traces an unbroken lineage all the way back to Peter, so the real issue becomes the primacy of Peter, and you framed the debate quite correctly. Just as an aside, Catholicism was united on this for the first 15 centuries (barring the Eastern schism), until Martin Luther decided to think otherwise.
  2. If there is one thing we should keep in mind when reading the Old Testament, then it is that all of it points in one way or another to Jesus Christ. I believe that all mainstream Christians (not only Catholics), hold this as essential truth. We must be careful in reading the OT as if it is a historical account by 21st century standards, for in many cases it is not. If all we have in Scriptures is the OT (or all we base our faith upon), then there would never be any Christians among us. Salvation history is pretty much complicated, but much like secular history – it is us humans who have been floundering all along. In the end, God’s love prevails and He wills all men to be saved.
  3. Yes, back to abortion the topic at hand. There is a notion that Catholics should follow blindly everything that is said by the Church hierarchy. No, this is not the case.
    For example, one may disagree and act against Pope John Paul II’s strong disapproval of Capital punishment and still be a Catholic in good standing. One may strongly disagree with the Vatican’s disapproval of the US attack on Iraq and still remain an orthodox Catholic. These are not definitive, infallible teachings (what I was explaining in item #1 above). There are other things, but there are teachings that we hold to be irreformable - among them the prohibition of women’s ordination, same-sex marriage, and yes - the prohibition of abortion as an intrinsic evil. We cannot go against these without grievously endangering our soul. Of course the final decision is still with the mother, but it is a different matter altogether to approve and countenance it. Certainly, we do not take light of the condition of poor, distraught, pregnant mothers. We should help them. Notice, in the very early days of Christianity, all the followers pooled their resources and helped each other according to need. No one was left wanting materially and psychologically. Look how far we have veered from that Christian principle now that many of us (yes, even Catholics) think of recommending an abortion to distraught mothers rather than helping her bring out and care for her child with love and dignity. Yes, there are missionary groups maintaining charity centers for distraught mothers and orphans but these are woefully lacking. Instead we have built up abortion centers and a billion-dollar contraceptive industry.
Lastly, I say Amen to your prayer.
 
Believe it or not, it is likely that the current administration right here in the United States is largely responsible for this:

Leading priest sees U.S. influence in Philippines president’s support for contraception
Normally I wouldn’t give credence to allegations in the absence of solid evidence. What makes me tend to believe this one is that President Aquino did not come up with a public denial that the $434M grant was not tied up to liberalization and funding of contraceptives. Many anti-contraceptive advocates here in the Philippines have charged the allegation, but the local administration has been strangely silent so far…

What a predicament our president Aquino is getting into. If he denies the charges even if it is true, then he loses his integrity. On the other hand, if he comes out in the open and admits, then the citizenry will be aghast that such a grant has strings attached to funding contraceptives. Oh no. And then liberalization of abortion would not be far behind.

Note US State Secretary Clinton’s remarks at the G8 forum in Canada:

*“You cannot have maternal health without reproductive health. And reproductive health includes contraception and family planning and access to legal, safe abortion,”
*
 
Willy Jose and others
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1. I'm aware of the ex cathedra principle. Over the years I have come to question it. The church needs to respond to dramatic changes brought out by science, medicine and the like. For centuries the church suggested that we lived in a three-tier world with heaven above and hell beneath. The Church Fathers believed in such a universe. They had no concept of the vastness of creation with maybe a million or even a billion solar systems out there. 

 Take, for example, birth control. If an artificial means is not inimical to the health of the husband and wife, I consider it their business if they use them and not that of the church. After all, both the approved church method and artificial means are working toward the same goal: avoiding pregnancy. So much for accepting God's will when it comes to the number of children, etc.  If artificial birth control is evil, why do we applaud artificial hearts, limbs, and all manner of pills to avoid this or that, etc.? I strongly believe that the church ought to permit loving spouses to follow their conscience in such matters. It is one thing (and I am much more sympathetic) to oppose abortion, but to forbid both artifical birth control and abortion is to increase abortions.

 2. I think you will find that the Pope, from the beginning, was not recognized by most of the earliest Christians - those old churches in the East. An argument could be made that the Pope replaced the Emperor. Year ago I had an audience with the Pope at the Vatican - along with 25,000 or so other folks. I remember how he was carried around on a throne by Swiss guards as the people shouted out their adoration. Viva le papa! - or words to that effect. In my mind's eye I could imagine the emperor receiving similar adulation.

 Incidentally, I have been privileged to hear (in person) four popes: Pius XII, Paul VI, John Paul II, and Benedict XVI. I have admired their energy as well as their position on many issues, but recoil a bit from what can seem like a cult of personality. I also am a bit troubled by the way in which the last two popes seem to have packed the College of Cardinals with men who appear to be against reforms badly needed in the church.

 3. Regarding Old Testament atrocities. Nothing in or out of scripture will convince me that our loving and merciful Lord would order such horrendous massacres, etc. It seems to me that millions of Catholics and Protestants swallow these heinous stories as 'gospel truth'. I refuse to. Period. God cannot contradict the Ten Commandments or the Sermon on the Mount by demanding such large-scale murder of the innocent (along with some guilty, perhaps).

 4. You seem to suggest that the ordination of women is out for all time, that it has been rejected ex cathedra. I certainly hope not. Everytime I see a long line of all-male clergy in procession I am troubled. I recall the scene at the Yankee Stadium when Benedict XVI was there. Dozens of robed priests were up front near the Pope. Behind them sat 5-6 women who served as readers. We live in the 21st century and the old patriachal and monarchial and hierarchial patterns need to be reformed.  

  I do love Catholicism's interest in the poor, admire faithful priests and nuns who serve at great personal sacrifice in very difficult situations, and hope that with such good works will come reforms long overdue. Else the church will witness a continuing drop in Catholic loyalty we have seen in Europe and the US (and Canada) during the past few decades. This past summer I visited the hometown of my French-Canadian grandma in Quebec. Guess what we saw in front of the large Catholic Church that once was the center of the community? A 'for sale' sign! 

 God bless all of his children, whatever their creed, color or country.
 
  1. I thought I’ve read somewhere that the latest studies show that Christianity has often nurtured and encouraged scientific endeavour, rather than stifled it as a whole. The Galileo affair often comes to mind in these type of discussions, although it now becomes clear that Galileo did not have sufficient proof at the time. Galileo actually taught that the sun was at the center of the universe (not just the solar system). Later evidence showed that the sun also orbits the center of the Milky Way. So it appears Galileo and his opponents were both partly right and partly wrong. Had the church endorsed his views wholescale at the time, history would judge them both partly erroneous too. Sometimes we tend to see history through our 20th century lens.
Science also has something to do with the prohibition of artificial birth control. In the early days, some theologians did not have any clear idea when life begins. St Augustine once said “human life begins in the womb at the time of animation… for there cannot yet be said to be a live soul in a body that lacks sensation…”. Today modern embryology is almost unanimous is declaring that life starts at conception - the scientific matter of
the 46 chromosomes. Today, most artificial birth control methods have been proven to have the effect of inhibiting the implantation of the newly fertilized ovum from implanting in the uterus. Simply put, modern science supports the Church’s stance on the protection of life in all its stages. That is one reason that the church only approves the use of the natural means of spacing childbirth. There are other compelling reasons, and one
has to go to the trouble of going to a thorough and charitable reading of at least Humanae Vitae and Evangelium Vitae (very few people do). Basically it is all about the marital act’s requirement to have two dimensions: procreative and unitive. When one uses artfiicial methods, the unitive and procreative is artificially separated, the sexual act is objectified, it ceases to be a marital act, and so it undermines the very idea of marriage. Of course eventually it is for the couple’s conscience to decide, but it is always the Church’s role to guide the formation of conscience.
  1. You’re right, but it is not the Pope’s fault. We revere the Pope, probably too much in the eyes of others. That’s because we consider him as the Vicar of Christ. For my own personal reasons I will beg off from this topic, although I appreciated your comments here.
  2. I suggest you think beyond the surface of massacres and look into the justice aspect of it. People will their own fates, for one thing. I am talking more of the eternal fate. Secondly, look into the matter of God’s justified place for them in the afterlife.
    That might make you more at peace when you think about the innocents as well as the guilty killed all at the same time. Holly in this forum forwarded me the thoughts of the apologist Jimmy Akin on the matter. It is very useful reading and I suggest
    you take some time to read it.
jimmyakin.typepad.com/defensor_fidei/2007/02/hard_sayings_of.html
  1. The case against women’s ordination was not pronounced ex-cathedra, but the ordinary, universal magesterium’s verdict throughout the ages carries the same weight. It is irreformable, even the Pope cannot change that. The Holy Orders is a sacrament, the Church simply has no authority to change a sacrament instituted by Jesus. Such dogma is not equivalent to relegating women as second-rate members of the church. The Church has honored women throughout history for their contributions to the Church. On the other hand, Protestants always wonder why we honor Mary so much. It’s just because Jesus honored her so much as well.
Some say the Vatican II’s reforms were overboard. Some say it was found lacking. At any rate, reforms are welcome. I am an active member of our Parish Pastoral Council, and let me admit to you that I don’t like much of what’s happening inside. But I would rather be in there and do my share to effect reforms, because I am useless as a critical observer from the outside. I won’t post my own 95 theses though, there is a proper way to enact reforms. Quitting isn’t one of them. I am so sad for the development in the Western/European countries.

God bless all of his children, whatever their creed, color or country. - AMEN
 
Thank you all for your replies. 🙂

I noticed that there were those who believe that there are circumstances wherein abortion is a good option like in cases of rape or when the mother’s life is in danger or not a mother is not prepared to have another child financially or psychologically.

I have to say I disagree that there should be any exemptions with regard to respect for life. My take on our Church’s teaching is that there are two distict individuals in a pregnancy.
  1. THE MOTHER who is 100% human with 100% dignity of a human being, distinct from the baby.
  2. THE FERTILIZED OVUM, EMBRYO, FETUS, BABY who is also 100% human with 100% dignity of a human being.
How can one, morally, make a choice between the life of one or the other when the value of both is the same or equal? Unless, of course, one would subscribe to the belief that one is subhuman or has lesser value that the other.

In any case, I still believe that those who posted here are honestly seeking the truth and may sincerely believe that they are in the right.

However since only one of us can be right … I would like to suggest that we pray a prayer for enlightenment…all of us…pro-choice and pro-life who are truly, honestly, sincerely seeking the truth that only God can give us:

Suggested prayer:

Lord God, I know you love us and want us to be in heaven with you someday. I want that too. Please open my mind, my heart to what is the truth with regards to these artificial contraceptions. I want to follow You as much as I can. Please give me this knowledge that will bring me closer to you. AMEN.

May God bless us all.

To Willy Jose …thank you for your very educational posts.

Regarding what you said here:
Normally I wouldn’t give credence to allegations in the absence of solid evidence. What makes me tend to believe this one is that President Aquino did not come up with a public denial that the $434M grant was not tied up to liberalization and funding of contraceptives. Many anti-contraceptive advocates here in the Philippines have charged the allegation, but the local administration has been strangely silent so far…

What a predicament our president Aquino is getting into. If he denies the charges even if it is true, then he loses his integrity. On the other hand, if he comes out in the open and admits, then the citizenry will be aghast that such a grant has strings attached to funding contraceptives. Oh no. And then liberalization of abortion would not be far behind.

Note US State Secretary Clinton’s remarks at the G8 forum in Canada:

*“You cannot have maternal health without reproductive health. And reproductive health includes contraception and family planning and access to legal, safe abortion,”
*
I agree with what you said here. Its hard not bto to believe that money is not flowing to fast track pro-choice agenda in our country.

If it is true, I ask how can we allow a foreign government dictate on us what our values and beliefs should be.

I was very disappointed when someone in government said that our president was above all religions in this issue. Does that mean he puts himself above Church teachings?

I am very surprised at some of the reactions in editorials. I have noticed a proliferation of articles of people praising the government for standing against the Church’s teachings. When Celdran did his theatrics during mass (!) at the Manila Cathedral, some people even called him brave! The church’s teachings on contraception was even called “medieval” by one of the writers in a column I read.

It is curious that very few pro-life reactions being printed in newspapers, which is highly unusual.
 
No, no, yes and formal excommunication seems to be reserved for public displays that run contrary to Catholic doctrine.

It’s disturbing to watch your country fall into the same deep, dark and foul pit that the U.S. has yet to climb out of.

Women in the U.S., to date, have killed 50,000,000 children since aborion was made legal.

Being “pro-choice” is the mental murder of a child prior to the physical act being committed.
So how many women should be on trial for murder?
 
So how many women should be on trial for murder?
They ARE on trial and they are murderers. They are on trial in the court of the Lord as are we all in one way or another.Millions are in fact guilty of homicide but the immediate question is what does saying that to the non Christian world out there achieve? We swim in a post Christian culture in which for most aborting women Christ is a half imagined fading cultural memory and we are trying to limit the damage that Post Christian culture’s need to decouple sex from its consequences does to innocent life. How does making true but inflamatory statements about such guilt help us witness to the truth in a world which is not Christian? That rather than yours is the question i submit.

Most or many Germans you know have grandparents who colluded in genocide…does pushing that point help in establishing relations and building bridges?
 
Birth control. Sorry, but I view this ‘procreative and unitive’ logic as typical of what a celibate, male hierarchy might come up with. Marital love-making is very important to the bonding and healing that marriages need, with the tensions and disputes that can occur within them. If husbands and wives have to be burdened with anxiety about calendar dates and pregnancy so much of this important intimacy of marriage can be lost. Again, I want to suggest that healthy artificial birth control - there appear to be unhealthy ones - can strengthen marriages and lessen abortions.
Code:
 I remember an article years ago with which I didn't agree, but it did make me think. It was critical of Mother Theresa and even accused her of being an enemy of the poor in India.  Why? Because she was warning poor people in India not to use articificial birth control when a continuing high birth rate among the poor was an important cause of  poverty, abortion, childhood deaths, etc. Interesting point of view. 

 **Biblical atrocities. **Yes, I know. I've heard that all before. God must have had a divine plan in mind when he ordered the wholesale murder of the inhabitants of Jericho and Ai, all the Amalekites, and many others. Is that why women have natural abortions? Does God have a divine plan for those babies, too? And that reasoning could justify abortions, for surely all those innocent souls must go to heaven without enduring the stresses and strains and sorrows and setbacks of life. 

 I would never  worship a God who demands that whole tribes be exterminated. I recall someone who told me once that God permitted Jews to be killed during the holocaust because they 'had killed Christ'. Sounds just as absurd an explanation. My God is a just and loving God, not a mass murderer.

  **Ordination of women.** Somehow you might think that Catholicism, which makes Mary the Queen of Heaven, the only sinless human ever to live, the only human born without original sin, and assumed directly to heaven - you'd think they might consider ordaining women. I predict that someday they will - at least Deacons. The shortage of priests seems to continue. I was reading in the current *Our Sunday Visitor *of the huge influx from third world countries into the USA,

 ** Abortion.** Ma.Eugenia, I respect your absolutist view. But please check back to posting #5, two scenarios where I think abortion may have been the lesser evil. It has always interested me that some people are so avid when it comes to allowing the unborn to live - and I generally agree - but they don't seem bothered when millions of innocent civilians are killed by bombs and bullets. I won't argue that we shouldn't have bombed Hiroshima and Nagasaki, but I still regard such bombing as a tragedy, even an atrocity. The same, of course, for the destruction in Berlin and Dresden, as in Warsaw and at Pearl Harbor. I wish Christians would get as angry about the evil of war as they do about abortion. 

 And, incidentally, Hiroshima was the Protestant center of Japan and Nagasaki the Catholic center of Japan. 

 God bless all his children, of all ages, creeds, colors and countries. Let's work to make religion a bridge rather than a barrier. Christ would approve of that.
 
So how many women should be on trial for murder?
They ARE on trial and they are murderers. They are on trial in the court of the Lord as are we all in one way or another.Millions are in fact guilty of homicide but the immediate question is what does saying that to the non Christian world out there achieve? We swim in a post Christian culture in which for most aborting women Christ is a half imagined fading cultural memory and we are trying to limit the damage that Post Christian culture’s need to decouple sex from its consequences does to innocent life. How does making true but inflamatory statements about such guilt help us witness to the truth in a world which is not Christian? That rather than yours is the question i submit.

Most or many Germans you know have grandparents who colluded in genocide…does pushing that point help in establishing relations and building bridges?
The most “funny” (if that’s the word for it) thing about this is that people are convicted of murdering unborn babies.

The most famous one in recent years was Scott Peterson:
Six men and six women convicted Peterson Friday of the first-degree murder of his wife, Laci, and the second-degree murder of the fetus she was carrying. The couple had planned to name their son Conner. The jury also agreed on a “special circumstance” that calls for capital punishment — namely that he killed another person — the fetus — while committing a felony — the intentional and premeditated killing of his wife.
Or we have the tale of Charleston’s (WVa) Timothy Burdette:
A Charleston man was charged with first-degree murder for allegedly punching his pregnant girlfriend in the stomach and killing their unborn baby after the woman refused to give him $10.
Or Fredrick Beach of Santa Fe:
A man accused of beating a pregnant woman to death also is being prosecuted under a 2004 federal law that makes it a separate crime to kill a fetus while causing the death or injury of the mother.
What is really “funny” about all of this is that people get charged for murdering fetuses, including sometimes the mother (there was a case involving two teens and a baseball bat)

My only question regarding this is if a baby in the womb is a person for some reasons, why isn’t he/she a person all the time? If he/she is a person all the time, then he/she is entitled to constitutional protections (5th Amendment & 14th Amendment in particular).

Interestingly, I haven’t seen or heard of any amicus briefs being filed by Planned Parenthood, NARAL, Gloria Alred, or any of the remaining usual suspects pointing out that, according to Roe v Wade, defining a baby as a person is a no-no. And, particularly in the case of Peterson, from way liberal California, it’s a little late.

So getting back to the question: So how many women should be on trial for murder?

Let us define murder, shall we?
Code:
1. the killing
2. of a human being
3. by another human being
4. with malice aforethought
When an abortion is successfully completed, a killing has happened. What was killed was a life form with human DNA. Christians, along with most rational beings, consider it to be a human life. The courts, as shown above, are somewhat confused on the subject. What did the killing? An abortionist (a human being) with medical assistants (human beings all of them) at the behest (usually) of the mother of that human life (yet another human being). Malice aforethought is the conscious intent to cause death or great bodily harm to another person before a person commits the crime. Did the abortionist intend to kill the baby in the mother’s womb – or was it just a spontaneous act? Did the mother intend for the baby to be ripped out of her womb? Or was there some other motivation?

If it is murder, then the appropriate actions need to be taken. Three out of the four elements of murder are without a doubt there. Only the baby’s status as a human being is in question…and that only by pro-abortion advocates and, in a mixed fashion, by the courts.
 

Ordination of women. Somehow you might think that Catholicism, which makes Mary the Queen of Heaven, the only sinless human ever to live, the only human born without original sin, and assumed directly to heaven - you’d think they might consider ordaining women. I predict that someday they will - at least Deacons. The shortage of priests seems to continue. I was reading in the current *Our Sunday Visitor *of the huge influx from third world countries into the USA,
Roy, Catholicism does not “make” the Blessed Mother anything but simply recognizes what is true.

What you are arguing is that Jesus was wrong. He certainly could have made Mary an Apostle and even elevate her to role He gave to Peter as the first pope. Yet He did not.

The Church can not change this. Pope John Paul II explained:
Although the teaching that priestly ordination is to be reserved to men alone has been preserved by the constant and universal Tradition of the Church and firmly taught by the Magisterium in its more recent documents, at the present time in some places it is nonetheless considered still open to debate, or the Church’s judgment that women are not to be admitted to ordination is considered to have a merely disciplinary force. Wherefore, in order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance, a matter which pertains to the Church’s divine constitution itself, in virtue of my ministry of confirming the brethren (cf. Luke 22:32), I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church’s faithful.
 
Birth control. I want to suggest that healthy artificial birth control - there appear to be unhealthy ones - can strengthen marriages and lessen abortions…
My profession is in healthcare. My personal opinion, is that none of these artificial contraceptive methods are healthy for the woman…physically, mentally, emotionally and most of all spiritually.

Many countries have gone the way of opening up for artificial contraception…and it paved the way for abortion, immorality and brokem families in their societies. I do not understand the haste that our government is trying to railroad the pro-choice agenda.

They say we will teach the couples of their choices. Frankly, I’ve seen some healthcare workers in their “teaching” and I would call it more like “selling a product”. Pros of artificial contraceptives emphasized, while cons are given less emphasis. This is not what I would call giving informed consent.

Furhermore, in my opinion, it is one thing for couples to search for an OB-Gyne to teach about methods that they want …and another thing when a government attaches it as an extra step for couples to be able to get some public service. One is voluntary, the other is not.

We have more trust in God’s providence that He will take care of us and will not give us problems more than we can handle.

Yes, there is sin in the world, the devil exists, sometimes bad things happen to good people…but that doesn’t mean God is uncaring nor unloving. As our beloved Pope Benedict XVI said in his encyclical, GOD IS LOVE.

Like in the story of Job, he allows these things to happen only so that an important good will come out of it.

Example: I have a friend whose much-awaited first-born baby died in the 8th month of preganancy. As expected, she was very depressed because of it.

But then, this made her realize that God exists because she believes now she has an angel in heaven looking after her and her family. When she comes home from abroad, she visits the grave of her daughter, she brings her second child with her (a son) telling him that he has a sister in heaven.

It also brought in the goodness of friends and family that surrounded her with love so that she would be able to overcome her deep hurt and pain.

I believe she was able to survive this tragedy because she turned to God for help.
QUOTE=Roy5;7137541]Birth control. ** Abortion.** Ma.Eugenia, I respect your absolutist view. But please check back to posting #5, two scenarios where I think abortion may have been the lesser evil.
I believe that there is such as a thing as absolute truth. One of these truths is the sanctity of life at all stages of its development.

In all the scenarios you mentioned, I fully agree with what Willy Jose posted right after. I am quite impressed with what he has shared with all of us. I learned a lot from his posts here.

In the case of artificial birth control and abortion (not the natural kind), I see that there is some sort of a turning away from God. Like saying, “I don’t need You.” or “Keep away from our bedroom…this is only between me and my husband or wife” or “I want to enjoy sex without God giving me any children.”

Something like when Eve gave the apple to Adam, thinking that they could be like God.

The way I see things, everything we do in life we have to act knowing that God is there with us…

With God we can overcome all evil, without God chaos reigns and evenl well laid out go awry.

Lord God, I know you love us and want us to be in heaven with you someday. I want that too. Please open my mind, my heart to what is the truth with regards to these artificial contraceptions and abortion. I want to follow You as much as I can. Please give me this knowledge that will bring me closer to you. AMEN.
 
QUOTE=Ma. Eugenia;7142988]With God we can overcome all evil, without God chaos reigns and evenl well laid out go awry.
Sorry, I over-deleted some words. What I meant was:

With God we can overcome all evil, without God, chaos reigns and even well laid out plans go awry.

Like the example given by St. Therese, the Little Flower, we need to strive to glorify God in everything we do. .

To me, this includes the marital act

I really can’t see how the use of artificial contraception or abortion can glorify God in any way.
 
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