Excommunication of scottish monks

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2014taylorj

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Why were these scottish monks excommunicated? I didn’t know you could be excommunicated for calling the pope a heretic? I am not disputing their excommunication or saying that it was wrong to excommunicate them, I just want to know whether calling the pope a heretic excommunicates you or were they excommunicated for some other reason?

www.bbc.co.uk

Orkney hermits excommunicated for calling Pope a 'heretic'

The Orkney trio criticise the Pope and compare the church to a "sinking ship" in a controversial online blog.
www.bbc.co.uk
 
I’m always suspicious when an organisation like the BBC, uses the phrase “Roman Catholic” which originated as an insult, in a serious article. The AP style guide even says to use it, however my professor in that class said not to use it when you’re talking about Eastern Catholics, and I often was. And also the way the headline reads, that sounds more sensationalistic.
 
2014taylorj said:
Why were these scottish monks excommunicated?
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If you read the article it tells you: they incurred automatic excommunication because they declared themselves to be separating from Rome and withdrawing from communion with the Church. It’s a schismatic act, and that incurs automatic excommunication.
2014taylorj said:
I didn’t know you could be excommunicated for calling the pope a heretic?
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Read the article again. That isn’t why they incurred the penalty of excommunication.
 
Reading the article you posted, it appears it wasn’t only because of that. It states "In April the group wrote to Bishop McGee to say they intended to withdraw their ‘obedience from Pope Francis and sever communion with the Holy See.’

Even ArchBishop Lefebvre never did anything like that. It appears from this article, that this group intended a formal separation by writing to the Bishop about it directly.
 
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This community has been the subject of threads before. They declared themselves to be severing ties, which is the equivalent of asking to be excommunicated. The Church authorities essentially just formalized what this group had already done. It wasn’t a simple matter of “Criticizing the Pope”, people don’t get excommunicated for that or a whole bunch of people including pundits, Cardinals, Archbishops etc would already be out.

I would also suggest that you remember that the BBC is not a great supporter of religion in general or Catholicism in particular, and not take everything they print about it at face value.
 
I would agree with them that the Catholic Church is in decline in the UK but not fair to blame it all on the Pope. It is the same in several Western European countries.
 
The BBC has very little time at all for Christianity and Catholicism in particular, but to be fair, they have gone some way to breach the news blackout on this saga which has been maintained by the Catholic press and hierarchy in the UK. This is an audio file of a brief BBC Local Radio station (BBC Radio Orkney) interview with one of the hermits who speaks plainly about their position.

https://tinyurl.com/y7f8a72c
 
Tis_Bearself said:
This particular Pope is actually way more popular with most of the ordinary Catholics on the streets than Pope Benedict was.
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I know a number of non practicing Catholics, who disagree with much Catholic doctrine, who like Pope Francis a lot more than the Pope Emeritus.

A few years later, they are still non practicing, still disagree with much doctrine.
 
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commenter said:
I know a number of non practicing Catholics, who disagree with much Catholic doctrine, who like Pope Francis a lot more than the Pope Emeritus.

A few years later, they are still non practicing, still disagree with much doctrine.
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I didn’t say they were all good, practicing Catholics. I said “ordinary Catholics on the street”. Many of whom are lukewarm at best, but they are still Catholics and would denote themselves as such.

I also don’t think it’s the fault of any Pope that they are how they are, whether we’re talking about Francis, Benedict, or JPII. They do not base their likes and dislikes of Popes on doctrine or theology either.
 
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Tis_Bearself said:
This community has been the subject of threads before.
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Have you been following this, @Tis_Bearself? Are they really “monks”, in any meaningful sense of the word? This is how that BBC news report describes them: “two men who call themselves a priest and a monk, and a lay woman who was a senior doctor.”

The lay woman is clearly not a monk, in any sense of the word. Of the two men, the BBC seems to be saying that one of them describes himself as a “monk” but the other one doesn’t. In both cases, it rather looks as if they’re overgrown teenagers playing a game of “let’s pretend”. Were they ever ordained, either as priests or monks or anything else? I suspect the answer is No.
 
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The priest is Fr. Stephen de Kerdrel, who is an ex-Capuchin who apparently left his order to found a more traditionalist group. So yes, he’s probably an actual (former) “monk” (Technically the Capuchins are friars, but colloquially many call them “Capuchin monks”) and a priest.

The other man is a guy named Brother Damon Kelly, who is some kind of anti-gay, anti-Protestant activist known for aggressive (often harassing and rude) leafletting and campaigning against gay people and for disrupting Protestant church services in a number of churches by bursting in and ranting in the middle of the service. He apparently joined Fr. Stephen’s group. Edited: He is apparently also a former Capuchin, according to a different BBC article.

If you Google you will find plenty of stories, many of them much less polite than BBC coverage, about these people’s antics and their being asked to leave by at least one Catholic bishop for bringing disgrace on the Church. The BBC for some reason seems to be quite nice to these people and always be giving them coverage despite Brother Kelly’s aggressive past activities against gays and Protestants.
 
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Here’s an article with a lot more details about this bunch:

www.ncronline.org

Excommunicated hermits — and their cats — finally find peace

Excommunication is the latest step in a long journey by the three companions who, for years, have tried to cut themselves off from the sins of the world, as they see it, so they can live closer to God.
www.ncronline.org www.ncronline.org

And another:

Nonreligious Questions

Whether you’ve been turned off by religion in the past or have a question about one of the world’s religions, check out what Patheos has to offer.
www.patheos.com www.patheos.com
 
commenter said:
A few years later, they are still non practicing, still disagree with much doctrine.
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But would they still be non practising if Pope Emeritus Benedict was still the Pope?

Maybe they need someone closer to bring them the Faith… someone like you maybe…
 
Yes, that’s the same article as National Catholic Reporter printed.

They all sound a bit off kilter if you ask me. If they truly love and care for the cats, I guess that’s one point in their favor.
 
I feel a little sad for these hermits.

I think this shows why hermits must always be supported by a community.

I know from direct experience that sometimes loneliness can lead to madness (or obssession), and one would need a tremendous will in contemplative prayer to sustain one self. It’s a speciall call, it seems.
 
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Tis_Bearself said:
This particular Pope is actually way more popular with most of the ordinary Catholics on the streets than Pope Benedict was.
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I’m not aware of any surveys on the matter, and nor do I agree with comparing popes and creating some sort of league of popularity.

But when Benedict became pope I remember a lot of people predicting terrible things. Of a return to the old authoritarian church of the 1950s. Maybe because the popular press had long taken to critcizing Ratzinger in the past and taking issue with him, sometimes rightly and sometimes wrongly. Practically none of what was predicted came to pass and his papcy was rather one of a kindly maybe bookish pope who cared more for prayer, or philosphy or deep discussions than he did for being the hero of the crowds.

When Francis became pope, I lkewise remember a lot of fear of a shift left. Of a death of traditionalism. Of a massive dumbing down. Guitars and shallow prayers. Likewise, this hasn’t come to pass…
 
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Our abbot is fond of saying one went to Rome to see pope St John Paul II, and one went to Rome to hear Pope Emeritus Benedict.

I’ve never seen St JPII live, but I’ve seen and heard both the two living popes, each twice. Pope Benedict I saw at the angelus in Castel Gandolfo in 2005, the year he was elected. He impressed me with his fluid command of so many languages, a clear sign of his tremendous intellect. At the Angelus in late 2009 however, his voice already sounded very tired.

I saw Pope Francis twice also. The first time was also the year of his election, 2013, at the Sunday Angelus. St Peter’s square was as usual jam packed. He asked for a minute of silence and prayer for shipwrecked migrants. All of the square suddenly erupted into…a very profound silence. It was like nothing I’d ever experienced. In a crowd of thousands, you could hear a pin drop. No crying babies even. Something special clearly happened.

I heard him again with seats on the stoop at the Wednesday audience in 2017, another memorable experience.

All this to say each Pope has his special charism. They are humans with strengths and weaknesses and foibles.

I have been alive since the last few months of Pius XII’s reign. Of all the popes in my lifetime I can rejoice over this: none of them have been scoundrels. That has not always been the case in the Church! Some may be more charismatic, some more intellectual, and the approach of some can give us pause from time to time.

But all in my lifetime have been good dedicated men who love Christ and His Bride. Deo Gratias!
 
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