Excommunication of the SSPX Bishops to be lifted!?!

  • Thread starter Thread starter Pope_Noah_I
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Sorry but I’d appreciate a couple of people talking me through this a little, re my faith possibly being shaken if the excommunications are nullified. And I say this as someone who has a lot of sympathy for the SSPX.

I do appreciate what several have said in reponse so far, but can I point out the enormity of such a decision? Just off the top of my head,
  1. It could make anti-Rome sentiment even worse among some SSPX affiliates, not to mention sedevacantists, because it’s authority could be seen as faulty, changeable etc
  2. It could cause many of the worst elements among liberals etc to argue that it proves that being in Rome’s favour is not important (as many already believe)
  3. It could cause many without strong faith in the Church or non-Catholics to question the authority of a Church that can so severely cut off and alienate some members for 20 years and then say that it had been wrong to do so in the first place
  4. It may feed unbalanced views among some SSPX adherents that they alone hold all Catholic truth and that it is their God-given role to bring the Church back to truth. In some cases it would go so far as seemingly “proving” that the SSPX has been the only remaining “remnant” etc, who now have to win all other nominal Catholics to their “true faith”.
  5. It may undermine the wisdom, if not the authority, of John Paul II, who was in many ways very wise in the way he directed the Church.
For me personally, I have had a lot to do with members of the SSPX, and I think I understand pretty well both the bigger picture of the disputes with post-V2 Rome and the smaller pictures of the many different types of individuals who have adhered to the SSPX. I know for sure that in both the bigger and smaller pictures, a declaration that the excommunications were null and void would have consequences so huge that it’s just plain silly to write it off simply as a “good thing”. It would affect Church history in the bigger picture, and individual members of the Body of Christ in the smaller picture, more than many could imagine. There’s a part of me that wants to see this as a good thing - but only in the sense that it will cause all Catholics to re-assess their understanding of the Church and the Faith. There’s also a (bigger) part of me that worries about the affect on the faithful.

But, just so I don’t sound doom-and-gloomy, a “lifting” of the excommunications wouldn’t worry me much at all. I think Pope Benedict was planning to “lift” them from day one, which is fair enough after 20 years of hopefully effective discipline.
 
Well, the Church admitted having done wrong to Galileo (Big Science hasn’t done the same about Piltdown Man to my knowledge and they have far more scientific blunders to fess up to than we do). It said what broke the Lutherans apart from us is no more–or something like that. I’m not saying the excommunications of the SSPX, sedevacantists, etc. weren’t right, but that saying that a new understanding has been come to with them isn’t a big blunder, like as if we didn’t have a valid pope for a while and the invalid one made dogma (which cannot happen, but that would be faith shattering if it could). People run the Church and mistakes can be made. St. Paul even reprimanded St. Peter.

The SSPX should realize that the “Old Catholics” don’t recognize St. Pius X.

Could Archbishop Lefebvre just had priests doing private Latin Masses and allowing people to drop in? In any case, they can do all the Latin Masses they want wherever now and they can have traditional seminaries like the FSSP’s. Saints out up with unwise, lied to and corrupted superiors. The SSPXers and sedevacantists should see that obedience and be humbled. I think EWTN hosts could promote positive things written by schismatics and sedevacantists as they do with Protestant stuff. It’s about the same rebellion; different times–but I have a post with more of that. The reconcilliation in our hearts should be one with the Pope’s intentions, but I see as much anger about them as they see in those criticizing Obama or the Pope [and BTW, I see a lot of latria of Vatican 2 and post V2 popes and their writings, as if they can do no wrong (World Over had a report on the state of seminaries, something that may have been fixed ~25 years ago by one who chose not to handle problem-bishops), and that’s not healthy].
 
Could Archbishop Lefebvre just had priests doing private Latin Masses and allowing people to drop in? In any case, they can do all the Latin Masses they want wherever now and they can have traditional seminaries like the FSSP’s. Saints out up with unwise, lied to and corrupted superiors. The SSPXers and sedevacantists should see that obedience and be humbled. I think EWTN hosts could promote positive things written by schismatics and sedevacantists as they do with Protestant stuff. It’s about the same rebellion; different times–but I have a post with more of that. The reconcilliation in our hearts should be one with the Pope’s intentions, but I see as much anger about them as they see in those criticizing Obama or the Pope [and BTW, I see a lot of latria of Vatican 2 and post V2 popes and their writings, as if they can do no wrong (World Over had a report on the state of seminaries, something that may have been fixed ~25 years ago by one who chose not to handle problem-bishops), and that’s not healthy].
First, we’re just talking about the SSPX, I think? I doubt any of what will occur in Rome will be of any concern to the SSPV (sedevacantists) or other independant groups that have no similar history with Rome. That’s another story.

Secondly, I am optimistic that regularization will occur though perhaps maybe not synonymously with the announcement that is rumored here. I think that the effect of an agreement between the SSPX and Rome would allow them to continue much as they are now, ordaining priests in the Traditional Form, operating seminaries, churches, etc. The issue will center around the priests and bishops not celebrating the New Mass as well as adhering to post- Vatican II changes. Whether this has (or will be) a major point of contention with Rome, I do not know but I can only pray that Tradition (all of it) may be preserved. I am confident that the SSPX would not agree to anything less than this.
 
One thing that may delay this is that Bishop Williamson is in a bit of hot water over the Holocaust issue.

The SSPX had to respond…
SSPX District Superior of German Responds
In a January 20, 2009 press release, Father Franz Schmidberger, District Supeior of the SSPX in Germany, noted, among other points not here included, that ”Our Lord Jesus Christ is in His human nature a Jew, His Holy Mother is a Jewess and all the Apostles are Jews. Therefore, no true Christian can be an Anti-semite.
”We do not know the interview done by Bishop Williamson with Swedish television. As soon as we get it, we will submit it to scrutiny and get the advice of lawyers. It is clear that the only one responsible for the statements made by the Bishop, is the Bishop himself as well as that the statements do not reflect the views held by the Society of St. Pius X. In addition, Pope Pius XI in his encyclica ”Mit Brennender Sorge” warned about the godless Nazi regime and it’s crimes.
”…Our concern is the salvation of souls, quite contrary to what the article in Der Spiegel in an unjust and misleading manner is suggesting.”
There is a discussion on the implications on FE…
websitetoolbox.com/tool/post/apologia/vpost?id=3245518&trail=14

This is not good.
 
still no link to this story on a reliable news site

why are we discussing this?
 
still no link to this story on a reliable news site

why are we discussing this?
From the blog Rorate Caeli:
UPDATE 2 (Jan. 22, 0730 GMT): Paolo Luigi Rodari also confirms the news in his report for Il Riformista this morning, adding the information that:
Code:
"It [the decree] will come out in the next few days, probably by Sunday. The President of the Pontifical Council for Legislative Texts, Archbishop Francesco Coccopalmerio wrote and signed it [the decree], by the Pope's will."
rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2009/01/surprise-for-tomorrow.html

DEO GRATIAS!
 
So what if Bishops werent willing to sanction the Latin Mass.
SO WHAT? What about OBEDIENCE to the DECREES of ECCLESIA DEI to make the Missal of 1962 more “wide and generous”? And this “so what” by the very people who point fingers at the Archbishop’s “disobedience?”
 
If, on the other hand, the excommunications are declared null and void, to be honest I think my faith in the Church will be shaken. I know it shouldn’t be, but it will be. To me, and no doubt to many SSPXers, there’s a huge difference between the Church accepting them back and .saying it was wrong to discipline them in the first place. To say that they shouldn’t have been disciplined in the first place seems to me to be absolutely scandalous and wrong.
Really? What about the gross injustice against ANY priest who wished to celebrate the Latin Mass after 1969? It seems as if the priest always had this right, so anything done to prevent him to celebrate the Latin Mass should have been thoroughly punished!

It works both ways, you know.
 
Sorry but I’d appreciate a couple of people talking me through this a little, re my faith possibly being shaken if the excommunications are nullified. And I say this as someone who has a lot of sympathy for the SSPX.

I do appreciate what several have said in reponse so far, but can I point out the enormity of such a decision? Just off the top of my head,
  1. It could make anti-Rome sentiment even worse among some SSPX affiliates, not to mention sedevacantists, because it’s authority could be seen as faulty, changeable etc
The underlined part should have already crossed your mind when the Pope and virtually every single Bishop in union with him began to promote - as a good - what had been explicitly condemned by the Church (in the Syllabus of errors and many other documents).

Even though that happened, it is not reason to have your faith shaken. Our faith is not in every action of a Pope. Popes are not infallible in all they do and say. We have had heretical Popes in the past. It is the exception, but it is theoretically possible.
  1. It could cause many of the worst elements among liberals etc to argue that it proves that being in Rome’s favour is not important (as many already believe)
The difference is that the Liberals depart from what the Church has always taught, while the SSPX was simply holding fast to it, while lies and deceptions were coming from all direction The SSPX understood that in such a crisis, the thing to do was to hold fast to tradition, as St. Vincent Lerins taught so many years ago. And since the Pope was taking no effecting actions to protect the faith, the SSPX took the extraordinary actions of consecrating Bishops who would be able to ordain the Priests who were taught the true faith in their seminaries. The Archbishop called it “operations survival”.
  1. It could cause many without strong faith in the Church or non-Catholics to question the authority of a Church that can so severely cut off and alienate some members for 20 years and then say that it had been wrong to do so in the first place
But that is not reason to withhold justice. The SSPX has been right all along. An admission of the truth should never be withheld simply because it might scandalize those in error.
  1. It may feed unbalanced views among some SSPX adherents that they alone hold all Catholic truth and that it is their God-given role to bring the Church back to truth. In some cases it would go so far as seemingly “proving” that the SSPX has been the only remaining “remnant” etc, who now have to win all other nominal Catholics to their “true faith”.
The SSPX has never said that they alone held the faith. They were one of the very few who held to the true faith, but they have never claimed that no one outside of their fold kept the faith. Just because one or two individuals might draw an erroneous conclusion is no reason to withhold the truth.
  1. It may undermine the wisdom, if not the authority, of John Paul II, who was in many ways very wise in the way he directed the Church.
Was it wise to take no effective actions while the Seminaries became cesspools of heresy and immorality, thereby reslting in a generation of bad priests (with a few exceptions)? Was it wise to invite members of assorted false religions to Assisi - including African Witch Doctors - and, with full approval of the Pope, have them commit a mortal sin against the first commandment (false worship) in the hope that God would be so please with this mortal sin encouraged by the Pope himself, that He would grant world peac?. That is what John Paul II did. He provided members of false religions a special room where they could commit a mortal sin against the first commandment. John Paul II believed that this mortal sin would be pleasing to God.
I know for sure that in both the bigger and smaller pictures, a declaration that the excommunications were null and void would have consequences so huge that it’s just plain silly to write it off simply as a “good thing”.
Acknowledging the truth is never a bad thing.
It would affect Church history in the bigger picture, and individual members of the Body of Christ in the smaller picture, more than many could imagine.
But that is not the fault of the SSPX. They have been right all along. Place the blame where it belongs - with those wolves who corrupted the faith and with those in authority who did nothing about it. The SSPX simply took the necessary action to protect the faith and the Mass.
There’s also a (bigger) part of me that worries about the affect on the faithful.
Interesting because there was always a part of me that wondered how a generation of heretical Priests (formed in corrupt Seminaries) and a Protestantized mass - with the wrong words of consecration (as Rome now admits) - would affect the faith of the average Catholic.

On that note, one of the few good Priests in my diocese recently read the Syllabus of errors of Pope Pius IX and said that in the Seminary, he was taught - as true - every single one of the errors.

Thank God the SSPX had seminaries that taught the true faith, and preserved the Traditional Mass, for the past 40 years.

Indeed God does not abandon His Church. Just as He raised up St Athanasius to preserved the faith during the 4th century, so too He raised up Archbishop Lefebvre to preserve the faith in the 20th century.
 
No it doesn’t. It just means they are being forgiven.
That doesn’t make sense.
We go to Confession and our sins are forgiven but that doesn’t mean they didn’t happen in the first place!

Therefore if the excommunications are lifted then yes it means those involved are forgiven but it doesn’t mean their sins did not happen. You don’t get forgiveness for something you haven’t done!
 
That doesn’t make sense.
We go to Confession and our sins are forgiven but that doesn’t mean they didn’t happen in the first place!

Therefore if the excommunications are lifted then yes it means those involved are forgiven but it doesn’t mean their sins did not happen. You don’t get forgiveness for something you haven’t done!
But if the decree says that the “excommunications” were null and void from the beginning due to a defect in form, it *would *mean the excommunication never happened.

We would have another case of a decepctive illision from those in authority. First it was that the old Mass had been forbidden; then it was that pro-multis should be translated as for all. Rome completely reversed itself on both points thereby confirming that the SSPX and other like-minded Catholics were right all along.

Is the next shoe to drop an admission by Rome that the SSPX was also right when it said the “excommunications” were null and void from day one? Time will tell.
 
This is wonderfulnews! I really think the Pope is moving the Church in the right direction.
 
I can’t find any English press yet, but here is a story from AFP (in French).

lefigaro.fr/flash-actu/2009/01/22/01011-20090122FILWWW00419-le-pape-a-annule-les-excommunication-.php

Le pape Benoît XVI a décidé d’annuler l’excommunication prononcée en 1988 par Jean Paul II contre les évêques intégristes adeptes de Mgr Marcel Lefebvre, affirme aujourd’hui le quotidien italien Il Giornale.

Le décret déjà signé par le pape, qui lève l’excommunication des quatre évêques ordonnés par Mgr Lefebvre dont celle de son successeur Mgr Bernard Fellay, doit être rendu public d’ici la fin de la semaine, selon le vaticaniste d’Il Giornale Andrea Tornielli, généralement bien informé.

Cette mesure de Benoît XVI fait suite à de précédents gestes du pape allemand pour mettre fin au schisme intégriste, avec notamment la réhabilitation en juillet 2007 de la “messe tridentine” en latin abandonnée après le concile Vatican II (1962-65).

En juin 2008, le Vatican a aussi renoncé à exiger explicitement des adeptes de Mgr Lefebvre, regroupés dans la Fraternité sacerdotale Saint-Pie X (FSSPX) dirigée par Mgr Fellay, la reconnaissance du concile Vatican II (liberté religieuse et ouverture à la société).
 
my French is RUSTY, but I’ll give a translation a try. “…” will mean I have no idea about the translations.
I can’t find any English press yet, but here is a story from AFP (in French).

lefigaro.fr/flash-actu/2009/01/22/01011-20090122FILWWW00419-le-pape-a-annule-les-excommunication-.php

Le pape Benoît XVI a décidé d’annuler l’excommunication prononcée en 1988 par Jean Paul II contre les évêques intégristes adeptes de Mgr Marcel Lefebvre, affirme aujourd’hui le quotidien italien Il Giornale.
The Pope Benedict XVI has decided to annul the excommunication pronounced in 1988 by JPII against the … … bishops of Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, the Italian daily “Il Giornale” affirms today.
Le décret déjà signé par le pape, qui lève l’excommunication des quatre évêques ordonnés par Mgr Lefebvre dont celle de son successeur Mgr Bernard Fellay, doit être rendu public d’ici la fin de la semaine, selon le vaticaniste d’Il Giornale Andrea Tornielli, généralement bien informé.
The decree already signed by the Pope, which lifts the excommunication of the 4 Bishops ordained by Lefebvre, …[and of him that succeeded him, Bernard Fellay?], should be rendered public …by the end of the week, according to the vatacanist of “Il Giornale”, Andrea Tornielli, generally well informed.
Cette mesure de Benoît XVI fait suite à de précédents gestes du pape allemand pour mettre fin au schisme intégriste, avec notamment la réhabilitation en juillet 2007 de la “messe tridentine” en latin abandonnée après le concile Vatican II (1962-65).
THis measure of the Pope is made following the precedent gestures of the German Pope to put an end to the schisme… with [notably?] the rehabilitation in July 2007 of the Tridentine Mass in Latin which was abandoned after the Second Vatican Council.
En juin 2008, le Vatican a aussi renoncé à exiger explicitement des adeptes de Mgr Lefebvre, regroupés dans la Fraternité sacerdotale Saint-Pie X (FSSPX) dirigée par Mgr Fellay, la reconnaissance du concile Vatican II (liberté religieuse et ouverture à la société).
I’m not sure I understand exactly the nuances of this paragraph.

I hope I got the others correct.
 
I think it is pretty certain this will happen. The only question is how will it be worded. Will the Pope lift the excommuncation, or will it be a declaration that it was null due to a defect in form. I bet it is the later.
 
John Paul II believed that this mortal sin would be pleasing to God.
Now you have crossed the line of civility into insult, judgement, slander and down right rudeness. I will not discuss the stupidity of your comments here as they are off topic, not that you care. Can’t miss an opportunity to bash Joun Paul the Great, heh? Well, it is this attitude of pride, that you know better than the Church, that will serve as a stumbling block to resolution with the SSPX.

You have a lot of nerve for a new member.
 
Now you have crossed the line of civility into insult, judgement, slander and down right rudeness. I will not discuss the stupidity of your comments here as they are off topic, not that you care. Can’t miss an opportunity to bash Joun Paul the Great, heh? Well, it is this attitude of pride, that you know better than the Church, that will serve as a stumbling block to resolution with the SSPX.

You have a lot of nerve for a new member.
What did I say that was incorrect? The stated intention of the “prayer meeting” of Assisi was that God would grant world peace. One of the scheduled events was mortal sins agains the first commandment in the form of false worship committed by assorted false religions.

So, what about my comments was wrong?

And why do you say I claim to know better than the Church? What part of my comments indicate that? I was only applying what the Churches teaches. And what teaching is that? It is the teaching that false worship is a mortal sin against the first commandment. Do you deny that teaching? If so, it is you who claim to know better than the Church.

Notice how you attack the one who points out the objective mortal sin, while claiming that the one who encrouaged it was “the great”. Talk about everything being upside down.

And don’t claim that my pointing out the obvious was calumny. We are allowed to point out the public acts of public people, which is all I did.

But I understand that you are probably in a bad mood since your house of cards is collapsing around you, as the SSPX (who you have been taught to HATE) is being proven right again and again. And rather than show a little humility and contrition for all of your calumn and slander against them, you attack those who point out the obvious.
 
Now you have crossed the line of civility into insult, judgement, slander and down right rudeness. I will not discuss the stupidity of your comments here as they are off topic, not that you care. Can’t miss an opportunity to bash Joun Paul the Great, heh? Well, it is this attitude of pride, that you know better than the Church, that will serve as a stumbling block to resolution with the SSPX.

You have a lot of nerve for a new member.
I’m not going to comment on Christus Rex’s statement to which you have responded above except to say that if this is how you really feel, you have publicly debased not only yourself, but the moral high road you believe you’re on.

You had a better way to address this statement.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top