Excommunication Question

[Steven_Merten]

cameron_lansing:

The citations from the online version of the Catholic Encyclopedia ("“Anathema” article) of 1917 ( or thereabouts) are only helpful historically.

The former penal law of the Church was abrogated and replaced by the promulgation of the new Code of Canon Law in 1983, from which I drew citations.

The ius vigens (living or current law) does not distinguish major and minor excommunications.

Further the notion of a censure does not present an action of the Church which “damns souls to eternal death by calling upon Jesus to have Him hold sins bound in heaven.”

There is no such assertion of eternal damnation in the law of the Catholic Church in union with the Roman Pontiff.

Hello cameron_lansing,

Can you please give us some sources and quotes from Church dogmas, encyclicals and cannons which state that what you are telling us is the truth. I know that modern Popes want a worldly image of looking like pacifists but I have not seen where they have used the Christ given “keys to the Kingdom” to loost past anathemas or remove auto anathemas from the many Church encyclicals, cannons and dogmas that past Popes have attached auto anathemas to. Thank you.

I was reading in another post where a Catholic convert, after digging into his new religion, found an auto anathema attached to cannons on Real Presence. Though he beileived in Real Presence, he was abit dismayed that the Church would put and keep a soul damning anathema on those who do not. Can you show us where this call to have Jesus bind sin on non believers of real presence, has been officially held loost, turned off and deactivated by modern Popes?

Please visit Throwing Stones

CANON I.-If any one denieth, that, in the sacrament of the most holy Eucharist, are contained truly, really, and substantially, the body and blood together with the soul and divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ, and consequently the whole Christ; but saith that He is only therein as in a sign, or in figure, or virtue; let him be anathema. Anathema

In passing this sentence, the pontiff is vested in amice, stole, and a violet cope, wearing his mitre, and assisted by twelve priests clad in their surplices and holding lighted candles. He takes his seat in front of the altar or in some other suitable place, amid pronounces the formula of anathema which ends with these words: “Wherefore in the name of God the All-powerful, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, of the Blessed Peter, Prince of the Apostles, and of all the saints, in virtue of the power which has been given us of binding and loosing in Heaven and on earth, we deprive N-- himself and all his accomplices and all his abettors of the Communion of the Body and Blood of Our Lord, we separate him from the society of all Christians, we exclude him from the bosom of our Holy Mother the Church in Heaven and on earth, we declare him excommunicated and anathematized and we judge him condemned to eternal fire with Satan and his angels and all the reprobate, so long as he will not burst the fetters of the demon, do penance and satisfy the Church; we deliver him to Satan to mortify his body, that his soul may be saved on the day of judgment.”

He who dares to despise our decision, let him be stricken with anathema maranatha, i.e. may he be damned at the coming of the Lord, may he have his place with Judas Iscariot, he and his companions.

Quoted from New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia. newadvent.org/cathen/01455e.htm
CANON lI.

-If any one saith, that, in the sacred and holy sacrament of the Eucharist, the substance of the bread and wine remains conjointly with the body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ, and denieth that wonderful and singular conversion of the whole substance of the bread into the Body, and of the whole substance of the wine into the Blood-the species Only of the bread and wine remaining-which conversion indeed the Catholic Church most aptly calls Transubstantiation; let him be anathema. CANON III.

-If any one denieth, that, in the venerable sacrament of the Eucharist, the whole Christ is contained under each [Page 83] species, and under every part of each species, when separated; let him be anathema.

 

[cameron_lansing]

Can you please give us some sources and quotes from Church dogmas, encyclicals and cannons which state that what you are telling us is the truth.

Sure. Read the Code of Canon Law promulgated by the authority of the Supreme Pontiff in 1983. It is a little more up to date than the article you quoted from 1907. Remember too there are declarations concerning the status of non-Catholics of all varieties in the Second Vatican Council. Read them and read the decrees and statements of the various Roman dicasteries on ecumenical matters.

Canon 6:" §1. When this Code takes force, the following are abrogated: 1) the Code of Canon Law promulgated in 1917; 2) other universal or particular laws contrary to the prescripts of this Code unless other provision is expressly made for particular laws; 3) any universal or particular penal laws whatsoever issued by the Apostolic See, unless they are contained in this Code; 4) other universal disciplinary laws regarding matter which this Code completely reorders. §2. Insofar as they repeat former law, the canons of this Code must be assessed also in accord with canonical tradition."

Now tell us from canons 1311-1399 where you found major and minor excommunication or the term anathema. When you have done this, I’ll address the other points. Canon 1313 will be of aid to you: “§1. If a law is changed after a delict has been committed, the law more favorable to the accused is to be applied. §2. If a later law abolishes a law or at least the penalty, the penalty immediately ceases.”

Remember that anathema and excommunications were done to people in concrete historical circumstances. Modern popes did not need to abrogate penal actions taken toward those not longer living. After people die, they are no longer subject to the jurisdiction of the Church, but the immediate judgment of God.

Please identify the council or synod from which you drew citations and then we can speak about that context.

If you are of the type with an animus toward the pope or the council, you will not, I fear, be pleased with any answer though.

However, though, even today, excommunication, interdict and suspension can be incurred by and/or inflicted on heretics, schismatics and apostates. As canon 11 provides, only on Catholics though: “Merely ecclesiastical laws bind those who have been baptized in the Catholic Church or received into it, possess the sufficient use of reason and, unless the law expressly provides otherwise, have completed seven years of age.”

Excommunication, interdict and suspension are merely ecclesiastical laws, and not inflicted on or incurred by non Catholics.

 

[Steven_Merten]

cameron_lansing:

Sure. Read the Code of Canon Law promulgated by the authority of the Supreme Pontiff in 1983. It is a little more up to date than the article you quoted from 1907.

Hello Cameron,

Can you please give us a hyper link to these documents? Preferably a Vatican link.

It is good to hear that Church leaders have used their Christ given power to hold sins loost to unbind this huge, two thousand year, accumulation of soul damning anathemas. How did they deal with the infallible and excathadra ones?

Jesus swears that anyone an Apostolic Successor calls upon Him to hold bound to sin in heaven, He will do so. We know that a person cannot go to heaven, but only hell, when Jesus binds such a culprit to sin in heaven. One person going to hell due to an Apostolic use of the Christ given “keys to the Kingdom” suffers infinitely more death than the combine loss of physical life cut short from all the wars in human history.

Anathema

in virtue of the power which has been given us of binding and loosing in Heaven and on earth, we deprive N-- himself and all his accomplices and all his abettors of the Communion of the Body and Blood of Our Lord, we separate him from the society of all Christians, we exclude him from the bosom of our Holy Mother the Church in Heaven and on earth, we declare him excommunicated and anathematized and we judge him condemned to eternal fire with Satan and his angels and all the reprobate

**NAB MAT 16:13 **

Jesus replied, “Blest are you, Simon son of John! No mere man has revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father. I for my part declare to you, you are ‘Rock,’ and on this rock I will build my church, and the jaws of death shall not prevail against it. I will entrust to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you declare bound on earth shall be bound in heaven; whatever you declare loosed on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

​

Please visit Throwing Stones

cameron_lansing:

Remember that anathema and excommunications were done to people in concrete historical circumstances. Modern popes did not need to abrogate penal actions taken toward those not longer living. After people die, they are no longer subject to the jurisdiction of the Church, but the immediate judgment of God.

In the Joint Lutheran Catholic Justification document I think that Church leaders pointed this out. They stated that Martin Luther was not released from the Church punishment of anathema set centuries ago. It is quite clear from Jesus’ sworn oath to Apostolic Successors to bind sin in heaven when Successors bind sin on earth that these bindings effect God’s decisions on who burns in hell on judgement day.

cameron_lansing:

If you are of the type with an animus toward the pope or the council, you will not, I fear, be pleased with any answer though.

However, though, even today, excommunication, interdict and suspension can be incurred by and/or inflicted on heretics, schismatics and apostates. As canon 11 provides, only on Catholics though: “Merely ecclesiastical laws bind those who have been baptized in the Catholic Church or received into it, possess the sufficient use of reason and, unless the law expressly provides otherwise, have completed seven years of age.”

Excommunication, interdict and suspension are merely ecclesiastical laws, and not inflicted on or incurred by non Catholics.

I am a Catholic who is distressed over the Churches “set it and forget it” attitude tword the use of Apostolic Power to have Jesus bind sin in heaven which damns souls. Bishop Botean in Ohio binding troops and troop supporters to mortal sin and eternal death for supporting the war in Iraq is a horrible spiritual attrocity which seems to be over looked by Church leaders. www.romaniancatholic.org/resources.php?documents=lent2003botean Pope Pious did not even bind Pope Benedict XVI and other German and Italian soldiers for participating in Hitlers greatest evil of all time. Why use the Christ given Keys to the Kingdom to damn our American troops to hell now? This is a grave injustice. I am glad to hear that the Church, other than the bishop Botean incident, is become more responsible with such a spiritually deadly weapon.

I do know, as you describe, it is far safer to be within the bosom of the Catholic Church through Protestant baptism, yet out side the power of Apostolic leaders to damn your soul through the Christ given power to call upon Jesus to hold sins bound in heaven. To me it seems the Church has given away their Christ given authority over ALL His followers.

 

[brotherhrolf]

Ah, but how many of you have ever witnessed an excommunication? I have. It was broadcast live on TV when I was a kid. Archbishop Rummel stood on the steps of the chancery at New Orleans and excommunicated two women who protested the integration of Catholic schools. This was done bell, book and candle because it was pre-VII. It was a very powerful statement of faith and one I’ll never forget.

 

[Genesis315]

Let’s remember, even with anathema, you can always repent and come back–burst the fetters of the demon, as the anathema ceremony says

 

[cameron_lansing]

Steven,

The Catechism, the Code and the Documents of the Council can be found in English translation at vatican.va/archive/index.htm. I recommend you bookmark them.

While we are on the same page in terms of the divine mission of the Church to call people to repentence and eternal salvation, it is best to be certain we are drawing from authentic sources in discussing the issue. The supreme law of the Church is the salvation of souls, and penalties exist from the Apostolic era to call erring Catholics to reform.

Go the the links to the Roman curia at vatican.va/roman_curia/index.htm in terms of some other matters I have suggested for your inquiry. Check out the work of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. Read how warnings are used. Penalties are last resorts, but still tools which the Church possesses by innate right.

Let me know what you discover, and then it will be profitable to discuss the other issues you raise as time permits.

 

[Steven_Merten]

cameron_lansing:

Steven,

The Catechism, the Code and the Documents of the Council can be found in English translation at vatican.va/archive/index.htm. I recommend you bookmark them.

While we are on the same page in terms of the divine mission of the Church to call people to repentence and eternal salvation, it is best to be certain we are drawing from authentic sources in discussing the issue. The supreme law of the Church is the salvation of souls, and penalties exist from the Apostolic era to call erring Catholics to reform.

Go the the links to the Roman curia at vatican.va/roman_curia/index.htm in terms of some other matters I have suggested for your inquiry. Check out the work of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. Read how warnings are used. Penalties are last resorts, but still tools which the Church possesses by innate right.

Let me know what you discover, and then it will be profitable to discuss the other issues you raise as time permits.

Hello cameron_lansing,

Just so we are on the same page.

If only one person, through out the past two thousand years, goes to hell due to Apostolic Anathema, more life (eternal life) is lost than the combine loss of physical life cut short from all the wars in human history. Do we agree? I believe in the Christ given Apostolic power where Jesus binds sins in heaven due to Apostolic successors binding sins on earth and calling upon Him to bind sins in heaven. It is the deadly sword of Christ’s mouth bestowed to Apostolic Successors for the protection of Christ’s Church on earth. Throwing Stones

If twenty years ago (1984) pope John Paul II abolished the many automatic anathemas bound to millieniums of Church cannons, encyclicals and dogmas, this is truly the greatest life and death (spiritual) changing event in the history of man. I find it hard to believe this information is not more universally talked about. Especially on this forum.

Can you find the exact Vatican page where this monumentous occassion is discussed? Then copy and paste this exact page. I am getting lost looking for such a page in the links you provided.

**NAB MAT 16:13 **Jesus replied, “Blest are you, Simon son of John! No mere man has revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father. I for my part declare to you, you are ‘Rock,’ and on this rock I will build my church, and the jaws of death shall not prevail against it. I will entrust to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you declare bound on earth shall be bound in heaven; whatever you declare loosed on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

**NAB REV 1:16 **

A sharp, two-edged sword came out of his mouth, and his face shone like the sun at its brightest. When I caught sight of him I fell down at his feet as though dead, he touched me with his right hand and said: “There is nothing to fear. I am the First and the Last and the One who lives. Once I was dead but now I live-- forever and ever. I hold the keys of death and the nether world.”

NAB ISA 11:4

The Rule of Immanuel

He shall strike the ruthless with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips he shall slay the wicked.​

**NAB JOH 20:20 **

At the sight of the Lord the disciples rejoiced. “Peace be with you,” he said again. “As the Father has sent me, so I send you.” Then he breathed on them and said: “Recieve the Holy Spirit. If you forgive men’s sins, they are forgiven them; if you hold them bound, they are held bound.” NAB MAT 5:22

What I say to you is: everyone who grows angry with his brother shall be liable to judgement; any man who uses abusive language toward his brother shall be** answerable to the Sanhedrin,** and if he holds him in contempt he risks the fires of Gehenna. **NAB MAT 18:17 **

“If he ignores them, refer it to the church . If he ignores even the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector. I assure you, whatever you declare bound on earth shall be held bound in heaven, and whatever you declare loosed on earth shall be held loosed in heaven.”

 

[Catholic2003]

Steven Merten:

I find it hard to believe this information is not more universally talked about. Especially on this forum.

This reminded me of a thread on another forum about what this reduction in the number of grounds for excommunication means in terms of the constancy of Church teaching.

 

[cameron_lansing]

Steven,

It is always best to check what was said. My statement was, “While we are on the same page in terms of the divine mission of the Church to call people to repentence and eternal salvation, it is best to be certain we are drawing from authentic sources in discussing the issue.” I only want to point folks to those sources found in the current canon law of the Catholic Church. But I think there is some posting at “cross purposes” that I will address later. Distinguishing among “anathema,” “doctrinal correction” and ecclesiastical “censures” may resolve this.

As I wrote earlier, “Now tell us from canons 1311-1399 where you found major and minor excommunication or the term anathema. When you have done this, I’ll address the other points.” Moreover, to discuss the context of the unidentified canons you gave, I asked you to “identify the council or synod from which you drew citations and then we can speak about that context.”

You didn’t but asked “a hyper link to these documents? Preferably a Vatican link.” I gave links to the Code, the Roman curia and the catechism. You responded that it was difficult for you to navigate the Vatican site. I do not have time to cut and paste for you. There are other websites with translations of the code, and you may find it easier to visit them. Try ourladyswarriors.org/canon/.

“If twenty years ago (1984) pope John Paul II abolished the many automatic anathemas bound to millieniums of Church cannons, encyclicals and dogmas, this is truly the greatest life and death (spiritual) changing event in the history of man. I find it hard to believe this information is not more universally talked about. Especially on this forum.”

I think the greatest event in history was the incarnation, death and resurrection of our Lord (which, to be fair, you probably had in the back of your mind while the enthusiasm came to the forefront). I also believe that my original post of July 24th does not say what you have concluded it to say. Please re-read it.

The former penal law of the Church was abrogated and replaced by …

While I cannot speculate why the topic of anathema is less discussed by others than you, Catholic2003 does offer a nice link to a similar thread on another forum. Realistically, excommunication, interdict and suspensations are more likely to be discussed by canon lawyers like me than by other folks.

However, I give a link about your statement that “In the Joint Lutheran Catholic Justification document I think that Church leaders pointed this out. They stated that Martin Luther was not released from the Church punishment of anathema set centuries ago.” The Joint Declaration is at the Vatican website. vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html I read it completely. I did not find what you said was stated in it. Perhaps I overlooked it. What it did say was “Doctrinal condemnations were put forward both in the Lutheran Confessions and by the Roman Catholic Church’s Council of Trent. These condemnations are still valid today and thus have a church-dividing effect.” **This, I suspect, is at the root of any confusion or posting at cross purposes here. A “doctrinal condemnation” is exactly what it says it is. It is a condemnation of an erroneous doctrine so that the correct doctrine can be safeguarded. The censures of excommunication, interdict and suspension are different under the current code. They are penalties inflicted on persons. They are not the same as doctrinal condemnation nor anathemas. Perhaps the terminological confusion arises since canon 2257 of the former code read in part, “§1. Excommunication is a centure by which one is excluded from communion of the faithful with the effects which in the canons, which follow, are enumerated, and which cannot be separated. §2. This is also called anathema…” (my translation) That was the only appearance of the word in the former code. However, the the term anathema has been dropped in the new code to promote clarity in part. **

You provided conciliar or synod anathemas that condemn heretical, schismatic or apostate ideas, practices, doctrines, and errors. Under the current law, censures (and expiatory penalties too) name people and inflict ecclesiastical penalties.

Once you relate the fruits of your inquiry into those canons of the current code of canon law and identify the source of the canons which you cited, as I requested, it will become useful for me to respond to your comments but again not before that.

Good luck in your research.
You may also find it useful to read vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_constitutions/documents/hf_jp-ii_apc_25011983_sacrae-disciplinae-leges_en.html