Excommunication result of Brazil Girl's abortion

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Doc_Keele said:
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All the press reports in the UK I saw stated that medical opinion was that the pregnancy posed a threat to the girl’s life.
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All pregnancies present some degree of threat to “the health of the mother” which is a loophole so big that the Starship Enterprise could fly through it. Just more garbage to justify the unjustifiable.
 
sedonaman said:
All pregnancies present some degree of threat to “the health of the mother” which is a loophole so big that the Starship Enterprise could fly through it. Just more garbage to justify the unjustifiable.
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But in this case, the mother (i.e. the girl) did nothing to create the pregnancy - she’s not responsible for it in any way. It was imposed on her against her will. That’s a big difference - she’s not trying to get out of something she brought on herself.
 
sedonaman said:
All pregnancies present some degree of threat to “the health of the mother” which is a loophole so big that the Starship Enterprise could fly through it. Just more garbage to justify the unjustifiable.
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As usual the supposed “Pro-Life” brigade are happy to let expectant mothers die…👍
 
Doc_Keele said:
Did you present any?
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Yes, this was mentioned in the links I presented. Here is one so you won’t have to go back and look.

“It isn’t true!” writes Graz. “Even IMIP (Child Maternity Institute of Pernambuco), after the intervention of Jose Cardoso Sobrinho, Archbishop of Recife, declared that the child ran no risk of death and for that reason permitted her to be transferred. The risk would rise at the end of the pregnancy, but it is for that reason that the birth … would be by cesarean section, as happens in the vast majority of the almost 30,000 pregnancies … in adolescents younger than 14 years old, every year in Brazil.”
All the press reports in the UK I saw stated that medical opinion was that the pregnancy posed a threat to the girl’s life.
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Yes, because that was what was said by the Bishop who said the excommunication should not have been declared; however, he was woefully misinformed. It is sad that the corrections of this were not as publicized as his statement was; as a result, many people had the wrong idea about this situation.

However, even if the little girl’s life had been in danger, a direct abortion would have been immoral. Treatment for the condition endangering her would have been permissible, but not a direct abortion. (However, I think that the discussion of a mother’s life being in danger should be confined to the threads in which it is already being discussed rather than derailing this thread.)
 
sedonaman said:
All pregnancies present some degree of threat to “the health of the mother” which is a loophole so big that the Starship Enterprise could fly through it. Just more garbage to justify the unjustifiable.
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Doc_Keele said:
As usual the supposed “Pro-Life” brigade are happy to let expectant mothers die…👍
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Doc_Keele said:
You think any pregnancy in a 9 year old is normal???
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No, but your comment to which I was replying referred to pregnancies in general rather than to pregnancies in 9-year-olds.
 
Well I categorically do not believe that any competent specialist would declare that, StFrancis. A 9 year old’s body is not ready for giving birth. Try talking to the specialists yourself, rather than relying on the internet. The internet is not the best method of discovering the truth on things like this, much of the information on the internet is totally unreliable.
 
Doc_Keele said:
Well I categorically do not believe that any competent specialist would declare that, StFrancis. A 9 year old’s body is not ready for giving birth. Try talking to the specialists yourself, rather than relying on the internet. The internet is not the best method of discovering the truth on things like this, much of the information on the internet is totally unreliable.
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What I am relying on is what the doctors who examined her said. Obviously the situation was not *ideal, *but the point is that the child was not in danger. In fact, she was so far away from being in danger that the hospital was unable to hold her when she was moved. Had her life been in danger, they would have been able to refuse to release her.

I think that absent any other evidence that we can safely take the word of the doctors who actually examined her, along with others who saw her at the time playing.

Brazil takes prenatal care very seriously and established special prenatal care division in 1989. Brazil has a very high rate of young mothers, and this too is addressed strongly.

From here: According to statistics provided by the pro-abortion Grupo Curumim and derived from the Brazilian government’s DATASUS/MS service, 192,445 girls from 10 to 14 years old gave birth between 2000 and 2006 in Brazil, while 105 died during pregnancy, birth, or having an abortion, that is, 55 out of 100,000 (grupocurumim.blogspot.com/2009/03/coletiva-sobre-caso-da-menina-de.html). Even if one were to assume that none of the deaths were caused by induced abortions, an unlikely assumption, this mortality rate is lower than the average maternal mortality rate for all ages in Brazil, which is 75 out of 100,000 (see tabnet.datasus.gov.br/cgi/idb2007/c03.htm).
 
Doc_Keele said:
Well I categorically do not believe that any competent specialist would declare that, StFrancis. A 9 year old’s body is not ready for giving birth. Try talking to the specialists yourself, rather than relying on the internet. The internet is not the best method of discovering the truth on things like this, much of the information on the internet is totally unreliable.
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At the time of the abortion, according to all news reports, neither the mother’s health nor life were **imminently **endangered by the pregnancy. Since the babies were fairly close to the age of viability, it’s possible they could have been saved if the mother had been allowed to continue the pregnancy under close medical scrutiny.

The murder of these children is unjustifiable.
 
Christopher68 said:
There are also examples of pre-teen mothers who have suffered severe health complications and even death, and whose children have suffered health complications and stillborn deaths as well. The dangers for pre-teen mothers and their children is vastly increased.
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Notice what you’re doing? Your trying to find a justification for this abortion, by trying to relitivistally apply what happeend to some other young mothers to this case. I could pull up several thousand cases I’m sure, of twenty something mothers who suffered sever medical complications due to pregancy, that doesn’t mean all are condemed to death.

The medical professionals involved stated, the (young, expectant) mothers life was not in danger. Are you trying to suggest a few other cases, of a few other young girls, over rules the opinion of the very physicians who examined this young lady?
 
wanner47 said:
At the time of the abortion, according to all news reports, neither the mother’s health nor life were **imminently **endangered by the pregnancy. Since the babies were fairly close to the age of viability, it’s possible they could have been saved if the mother had been allowed to continue the pregnancy under close medical scrutiny.

The murder of these children is unjustifiable.
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So you have to let the danger become imminent? Great idea:thumbsup:
It wasn’t murder but quasi self defence. NB if it can be justified then it isn’t murder by definition.
 
St_Francis said:
What I am relying on is what the doctors who examined her said. Obviously the situation was not *ideal, *but the point is that the child was not in danger. In fact, she was so far away from being in danger that the hospital was unable to hold her when she was moved. Had her life been in danger, they would have been able to refuse to release her.

I think that absent any other evidence that we can safely take the word of the doctors who actually examined her, along with others who saw her at the time playing.

Brazil takes prenatal care very seriously and established special prenatal care division in 1989. Brazil has a very high rate of young mothers, and this too is addressed strongly.

From here: According to statistics provided by the pro-abortion Grupo Curumim and derived from the Brazilian government’s DATASUS/MS service, 192,445 girls from 10 to 14 years old gave birth between 2000 and 2006 in Brazil, while 105 died during pregnancy, birth, or having an abortion, that is, 55 out of 100,000 (grupocurumim.blogspot.com/2009/03/coletiva-sobre-caso-da-menina-de.html). Even if one were to assume that none of the deaths were caused by induced abortions, an unlikely assumption, this mortality rate is lower than the average maternal mortality rate for all ages in Brazil, which is 75 out of 100,000 (see tabnet.datasus.gov.br/cgi/idb2007/c03.htm).
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I’d rather take what I know “straight from the horse’s mouth” from medics over any number of internet reports of what may or may not have been said. I find those statistics very dubious.
 
Doc_Keele said:
I’d rather take what I know “straight from the horse’s mouth” from medics over any number of internet reports of what may or may not have been said. I find those statistics very dubious.
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That’s a rather obstiant position to take, do you seirously mean to say you’re not going to believe it unless you fly to brazil, and talk directly to the Doctors? And of course the likelyhood this is going to happen is very small, so I guess you’ll choose to never believe it?
 
crazzeto said:
Notice what you’re doing? Your trying to find a justification for this abortion, by trying to relitivistally apply what happeend to some other young mothers to this case. I could pull up several thousand cases I’m sure, of twenty something mothers who suffered sever medical complications due to pregancy, that doesn’t mean all are condemed to death.

The medical professionals involved stated, the (young, expectant) mothers life was not in danger. Are you trying to suggest a few other cases, of a few other young girls, over rules the opinion of the very physicians who examined this young lady?
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I don’t need to notice anything - I know exactly what I am doing.

The young girl ‘may’ have been able to deliver a baby to term with relatively few complications. She also ‘may’ have had serious health complications if the pregnancy would have continued. We don’t know. But what we ‘do’ know is that pre-teen mothers ‘are’ at greater risk for health complications, to both themselves and their children. That much is a medical fact.
 
Christopher68 said:
I don’t need to notice anything - I know exactly what I am doing.

The young girl ‘may’ have been able to deliver a baby to term with relatively few complications. She also ‘may’ have had serious health complications if the pregnancy would have continued. We don’t know. But what we ‘do’ know is that pre-teen mothers ‘are’ at greater risk for health complications, to both themselves and their children. That much is a medical fact.
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So like Doc, you’re intent on ignoring the stated opinion of the very professionals who examined her? Until what time? Will you also elect to ignore it unless they were standing in front of you telling you the girl wasn’t going to die? And would you beleive it even then?
 
Doc_Keele said:
I’d rather take what I know “straight from the horse’s mouth” from medics over any number of internet reports of what may or may not have been said. I find those statistics very dubious.
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It’s not as if a pro-abortion group gains from reporting that young mothers are so well taken care of in Brazil that they have *fewer *mortalities than mothers overall.

But I am perfectly willing to let you wait to discuss this further until after your trip.
 
crazzeto said:
So like Doc, you’re intent on ignoring the stated opinion of the very professionals who examined her? Until what time? Will you also elect to ignore it unless they were standing in front of you telling you the girl wasn’t going to die? And would you beleive it even then?
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If the girl died as a result of attempting to carry to term - knowing the additional risks - how is that pro-life?
 
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