Excommunication?

[Leegal]

All priests in the United States in good standing have the authority to lift the excommunication associated with Abortion. (Source: Ask and Apologist, November 18, 2011).

Thank you I saw that. That was part of my purpose in posting here. Fr. Serpa speaks of absolution but not the excommunication. I see this as two separate issues, though the one results from the other. Sort of like a two step process. Also, of a concern is that the penitent cannot even receive the sacrament of reconcilation until the lifting of the excommunication.

Some threads here suggest that not all priests can lift an excommunication.

Thank you all. When the meeting takes place things will be clearer. I can forsee though the doubt and a woman seeking reconciliation ad infinitum because this simply is not clear.

If I never knew a woman who has had an abortion cannot even receive the sacrament of reconciliation until or unless the Excommunication is lifted first (and it may be different everywhere as to whether this priest or that priest has been granted the authority), how many more women are out there?

 

[catharina]

Also I would hate to imagine a case when a very hurt woman finally works up the courage to confess this sin, confesses it, and then the priest says sorry, I can’t help you, this sin is just that bad and you’ve excommunicated yourself. You’ll have to talk to the bishop or this particular priest, until then you are still excommunicated. That would not exactly be good pastoral practice in my estimation. Excommunication exists to help compel the person to rectify their position with the Church, not to hinder that healing.

Wrong.
In the US (and many other nations) ALL priests
have been granted the power to lift this excommunication through the confessional.

 

[catharina]

Thank you I saw that. That was part of my purpose in posting here. Fr. Serpa speaks of absolution but not the excommunication. I see this as two separate issues, though the one results from the other. Sort of like a two step process. Also, of a concern is that the penitent cannot even receive the sacrament of reconcilation until the lifting of the excommunication.

Some threads here suggest that not all priests can lift an excommunication.

Thank you all. When the meeting takes place things will be clearer. I can forsee though the doubt and a woman seeking reconciliation ad infinitum because this simply is not clear.

If I never knew a woman who has had an abortion cannot even receive the sacrament of reconciliation until or unless the Excommunication is lifted first (and it may be different everywhere as to whether this priest or that priest has been granted the authority), how many more women are out there?

You are beating a dead horse.
Priests in the USA have been given this “extra” power.

READ POST # 13.

 

[Leegal]

Also I would hate to imagine a case when a very hurt woman finally works up the courage to confess this sin, confesses it, and then the priest says sorry, I can’t help you, this sin is just that bad and you’ve excommunicated yourself. You’ll have to talk to the bishop or this particular priest, until then you are still excommunicated. That would not exactly be good pastoral practice in my estimation. Excommunication exists to help compel the person to rectify their position with the Church, not to hinder that healing.

My thought exactly. I think the woman would feel blindsided. She may not have made further attempts.

 

[catharina]

My thought exactly. I think the woman would feel blindsided. She may not have made further attempts.

Yoo-hoo? Erroneous speculations.
Read Post #13 from puzzleannie.

 

[Leegal]

Anyone who has an abortion, participates in an abortion, or supports an abortion, is automatically excommunicated from the Catholic Church.

To lift the excommunication, the sinner must approach the local Bishop, and ask him to lift the excommunication. Now the Bishop can also appoint a priest to specifically deal with this absolution on his behalf, and lift the excommunication.

Now in the United States specifically (because every country is different), every bishop has been given the ok for the local priests to both lift excommunication and absolve the sinner of this sin.

Unfortunatley a reason for this, I believe, is because abortion cases in the U.S. have been so high.

You may be right. If the rate is so high, and the population is great, and in a city such as the size of New York city, I cannot imagine the Bishop having to see every penitent who has had an abortion.

I can’t imagine the Bishop is going to take her call for an appointment without the priest’s intercession, at the very least. If necessary, and the priest intercedes, I understand the woman would continue onward to seeing a Bishop. But, I cannot imagine this can be done in NYC.

Thank you, God Bless.

 

[catharina]

You may be right. If the rate is so high, and the population is great, and in a city such as the size of New York city, I cannot imagine the Bishop having to see every penitent who has had an abortion.

I can’t imagine the Bishop is going to take her call for an appointment without the priest’s intercession, at the very least. If necessary, and the priest intercedes, I understand the woman would continue onward to seeing a Bishop. But, I cannot imagine this can be done in NYC.

Thank you, God Bless.

Reality check:

the bishops are WAY ahead of you re this.
Please, read Post # 13, from puzzleannie.

 

[Leegal]

Thank you and God Bless everyone.

 

[catharina]

Thank you and God Bless everyone.

I hope that “thank you” means
you have now read and absorbed Post #13,

It’s extremely frustrating to witness issues
being debated when those issues have been long resolved.

 

[Cristiano]

In relation to excommunication and being in a state of grace it is important to remember that St Joan of Arc died in a state of excommunication. However, she also died in a state of grace.

 

[Aelred_Minor]

Wrong.
In the US (and many other nations) ALL priests
have been granted the power to lift this excommunication through the confessional.

Obviously what I wrote is in support of this.

Really, let’s take it down a notch Catharina.

 

[Leegal]

In relation to excommunication and being in a state of grace it is important to remember that St Joan of Arc died in a state of excommunication. However, she also died in a state of grace.

Thank you. That brings some clarity. I did not know this. Or should have.

God Bless You; you have been most helpful and it’s much appreciated.

 

[Cristiano]

Wrong.
In the US (and many other nations) ALL priests
have been granted the power to lift this excommunication through the confessional.

How do you know this? I would agree by saying that probably all of the diocesan priests have been granted this faculty but generalizing that to all the priests is incorrect. Just look at the SSPX priest in the USA, usually they are not granted the faculty to hear confessions by the local diocesan Bishops.I honestly do not know what are the faculties for a lot of religious priests.

 

[runningdude]

How do you know this? I would agree by saying that probably all of the diocesan priests have been granted this faculty but generalizing that to all the priests is incorrect. Just look at the SSPX priest in the USA, usually they are not granted the faculty to hear confessions by the local diocesan Bishops.I honestly do not know what are the faculties for a lot of religious priests.

I would say that it is all priests, religious or diocesan, in good standing have been granted the correct faculties. The church is not in the business of confusing the women who are trying to return.

In the unlikely event that someone ever found him or herself excommunicated with a penalty that the confessor was not authorized to lift, the confessor would act as an intermediary between the bishop and penitent. The penitent’s identity would be protected by the sacramental seal, and only essential details would be conveyed anonymously to the chancery or Holy See as necessary. The penitent wouldn’t be summarily turned away, but may be asked to return later to complete the sacrament if the petition is accepted.

 

[runningdude]

Thank you I saw that. That was part of my purpose in posting here. Fr. Serpa speaks of absolution but not the excommunication. I see this as two separate issues, though the one results from the other. Sort of like a two step process. Also, of a concern is that the penitent cannot even receive the sacrament of reconcilation until the lifting of the excommunication.

Father Serpa was responding to a question about the “dispensation” needed by the priest. I believe he was simply trying to reassure the person asking the question without confusing him or her with too much detail.

The church calls us all to penance, and has chosen to make the penalty for abortion fairly easy to lift within the United States. Millions of women are suffering the consequences of abortion, and Christ’s mercy is made available so that they may begin to heal.

 

[Leegal]

Father Serpa was responding to a question about the “dispensation” needed by the priest. I believe he was simply trying to reassure the person asking the question without confusing him or her with too much detail.

The church calls us all to penance, and has chosen to make the penalty for abortion fairly easy to lift within the United States. Millions of women are suffering the consequences of abortion, and Christ’s mercy is made available so that they may begin to heal.

Thank. You have been most kind and reassuring. I will look at Fr. Serpa’s words again. In any case, the woman will see the pastor later today, by appointment and I am hopeful.

God Bless.

 

[Swiss_Guy]

I understand that if a woman has an abortion she cannot marry in the Church, cannot take part in the liturgy, cannot receive the Eucharist. She can attend Mass, but is prohibited from the receiving of sacraments – and that includes Confession too.

I understand that she is Excommunicated.

1. is it so that the Excommunication must be lifted FIRST, as even the sacrament of reconciliation cannot be performed until the Excommunication is addressed.
2. and that not all priests in the U.S. have the authoritity to lift an Excommunication so that the Sacrament of Reconciliation cannot take place until the priest has conferred with his Bishop or already has the authority. In another place here, I read that in the U.S., all priests have the authority to lift an Excommunication before hearing the full confession.

The woman must first tell the priest that the issue involves Excommunication before the priest can or should hear the full confession.

I read that some women who have taken the Sacrament of Penance may not have had the Excommunication lifted and may be unaware.

catholicdoors.com/faq/qu70.htm

Does anyone know how this takes place in the U.S.? Thank you.

God Bless.

Is it true that people who are pro-choice are also automatically excommunicated? If so, then would a Mass be valid and/or licit if performed by a pro-choice priest?

 

[Leegal]

Is it true that people who are pro-choice are also automatically excommunicated? If so, then would a Mass be valid and/or licit if performed by a pro-choice priest?

Some Bishops in the U.S. posed the question as to whether being pro-choice is excommunication latae sententiae - automatic. The Pope was not prepared to declare over 20 million Catholics excommunicated. However, Catholic Bishops in Mexico threatened to excommunicate their politicians who were pro-choice. The Pope said “yes.” The Vatican then backtracked on the “yes” conveyed by the Pope.

If you are pro-choice, you are at risk. Politicians may find themselves formally excommunicated, but the Church has not yet been prepared to go this far. I would say you will know this in your heart already.

On the other hand, if you have an abortion, pressure someone to have an abortion, support an abortion, pay for an abortion, participate in an abortion – you are automatically excommunicated. The pro-choice persons have not formally been declared so by the Vatican.

The priest is at risk of suspension, but the Mass was valid because the congregants who particpated in the Mass have no way of knowing if the priest is in a state of grace. The sin of the priest does not invalidate the Mass. It’s his sin to be pro-choice and he must seek reconciliation. However, if he performs Mass his sin does not extend to create an invalidation of the Mass.

Pro-choice Catholics are instructed to do whatever it takes, intellectually and spiritually, to recognize the Church’s teachings on abortion – that pro-choice means pro-abortion too – that it is inherently evil and to pray that you submit to the Truth.

I see a real conflict though in a priest declaring himself pro-choice, and grave error on the priest’s part – both in his “choice” and conveying it publically.

 

[Cristiano]

I would say that it is all priests, religious or diocesan, in good standing have been granted the correct faculties. The church is not in the business of confusing the women who are trying to return…

I understand that probably most if not all the priests serving in dioceses have been granted that faculty; however, I am not sure at all that it is a norm for religious priests. If you have it, would you provide a document that could provide reason for that assumption? My skepticism comes from the fact that religious priests not serving as diocesan priests have a different structure of obedience. I am not trying to prove you wrong I am just thinking about to similar but independent structures. I see that often a religious organization could cover multiple dioceses or episcopal conferences where the rules are different. I will try to contact one of the most knowledgeable CAF members on the topic concerning the faculties of religious priests and get him to add his words of wisdom.

 

[JReducation]

If you folks are talking about abortion and the excommunication that goes with it, there are two points that have to be taken into consideration.

1. Not everyone who procures or performs an abortion is automatically excommunicated. That’s not what the law says. The law is very nuanced, deliberately so.
2. Any priest who has faculties to grant absolution in the USA also has faculties to lift the excommunication. He does not have to go to the bishop. It makes no difference whether you belong to a religious community or a diocese. Faculties to hear the confession of the faithful are always granted by the bishop. Religious superiors only grant and remove faculties to hear confessions in their houses and institutions. They may only grant faculties to hear the confessions of those who are either members of the community or lay people who reside in the community, not lay people who stop by the religious house. However, when a bishop grants a religious community the right to erect a house in his diocese, he also grants the faculties to those religious who are priests.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF